pls recommend me a good whey product

hey guys

im doing a routine for a while now and a make good progress after increase intensity, but my muscles are not growing.

im not a big eater, i tried it often but cant stand to eat every 3 hours meat, rice and veggies, im more into stay a little bit hungry everytime because im feelin much fitter, faster and so on.

also i dont really like the tasting of milk, so this is also no option (except in my pw shake with peanutbutter a banana and some berries)...but i know if i want my muscles to grow i have to consume enough quality calories.

so i read a post of slizzardman??? to take 10g whey every hour, wich make the muscles grow but dont make you gain fat and i decided to try this one... =)

so to cut a long story short....which whey product can you guys recommend me?

thx bye

just go to proteinfactory or some other website like them

to gain size, you still need to eat kcals; protein won't do it alone for the most part. there might be some small gains but not your best possible hypertrophy

itisme said:

hey guys

im doing a routine for a while now and a make good progress after increase intensity, but my muscles are not growing.

im not a big eater, i tried it often but cant stand to eat every 3 hours meat, rice and veggies, im more into stay a little bit hungry everytime because im feelin much fitter, faster and so on.

also i dont really like the tasting of milk, so this is also no option (except in my pw shake with peanutbutter a banana and some berries)...but i know if i want my muscles to grow i have to consume enough quality calories.

so i read a post of slizzardman??? to take 10g whey every hour, wich make the muscles grow but dont make you gain fat and i decided to try this one... =)

so to cut a long story short....which whey product can you guys recommend me?

thx bye

Wow. I think I am wasting my time saying this, but you need to eat. Your body is telling you that you do not have enough food in your diet. That feeling you get is quite clearly a lie, because your body is not responding with growth and development.

The food you eat isn't as important as just getting enough food.

The protein really only helps when you have enough food, and it doesn't matter whether the protein comes from food or whey.

If you want to use whey, use whey. Get whey protein isolate to make sure you have a good product. Eat food so that you aren't wasting money on the whey. It is not a miracle product, it is just protein. You need food. I think I've said that enough.

Eat food. Eat more food. Take some protein with your meals and between meals if you like. Grow.

ok ok guys i got it....have to consume more calories =)

but is it ok to drink every 3 hours a shake like i described above (250ml milk, a cup berries, a banana and 2 tbl spoons peanutbutter) instead of eating?

Start there. If it is what works for you. Looks like a decent enough shake for me.

People eat differently, just make sure you get the raw caloric intake to start. Refine it slowly over time.

Go on amazon and look up "new zealand whey". Grass fed whey protein.

Nic Branson said:

Start there. If it is what works for you. Looks like a decent enough shake for me.

People eat differently, just make sure you get the raw caloric intake to start. Refine it slowly over time.

This is very true. The disadvantage of liquid is that the calories get in your system very, very quickly. Even with the peanut butter, which WILL help slow things down. Especially if it is natural peanut butter without extra sugar. You have plenty of sugar from the berries and the banana, more from peanut butter isn't in your best interests. Not a critical point, but if you CAN get no sugar added peanut butter it would be better. Regular PB is still ok.

Whole milk will also be your best friend if you are insisting on a liquid only approach (which is, for many reasons, not ideal).

Anyhow, like Nic said... start there and see how you feel, how your body responds, and how you perform. The biggest problem will be that you are low on carbs. You would do better if you added some kind of long chain maltodextrin, a slow release carb source.

Because this will already be better than what you are doing (more calories vs less) you will feel better and perform better. Don't mistake that as being the best your body can give you.

We should still be placing fast carbs only in the early morning meal and around the work out (primarily during and directly after), and slow carbs for the rest of the day correct? Does this nutritiming program detail that aspect, or does it simply show deficit/surplus totals of carbs in general?

I eat one orange with 25 grams of whey first thing in the AM and then meat and veggie meals every 2-3 hours for the rest of the day. 2 hrs before my work out I eat meat, veggies and a sweet potatoe. Then whey directly before, and after the work out another sweet potatoe with my whey. Then I go back to meat and veggies. With the concentration on carbs in this discussion, it seems like I may not be getting enough carbs?? Should I be eating starches with my veggies at every meal? Or am I over thinking this? I still confuse myself by thinking that carbs and veggies are different.

Eddie said:

We should still be placing fast carbs only in the early morning meal and around the work out (primarily during and directly after), and slow carbs for the rest of the day correct? Does this nutritiming program detail that aspect, or does it simply show deficit/surplus totals of carbs in general?

I eat one orange with 25 grams of whey first thing in the AM and then meat and veggie meals every 2-3 hours for the rest of the day. 2 hrs before my work out I eat meat, veggies and a sweet potatoe. Then whey directly before, and after the work out another sweet potatoe with my whey. Then I go back to meat and veggies. With the concentration on carbs in this discussion, it seems like I may not be getting enough carbs?? Should I be eating starches with my veggies at every meal? Or am I over thinking this? I still confuse myself by thinking that carbs and veggies are different.

Nutritiming does not detail when you should have carbs of any particular GI, nor does it give you a minimum recommendation. I will tell you, however, that since 30% of your resting metabolism (sitting in the chair at the computer, for example) comes from carbs so if you burn 120 calories per hour you need 36 calories from carbs each hour, which is 9g of carbs. You can actually adjust that fairly well by using a perceived rating of exertion 1-10, which will tell you almost exactly what percentage of calories needs to come from carbs for any given period of time.

(PER rating * 10=percentage)

That gets a bit complex and is quite honestly not entirely necessary, especially if you have to do all that yourself.

As for high GI vs low GI, it is generally preferable to have low GI foods for most of your carbs. Even if you have a bit of high GI at breakfast, I wouldn't get more than 50-60g of high GI carbs. Some people will feel like crap if they have any high GI carbs and that generally indicates (but does not prove) an insulin resistance that leads to increased secretion and a subsequent lack of sugar in the blood. Basically sloppy handling by the body, which is a hallmark of insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome.

The program just shows deficit/surplus calories in total, which is the single most important thing. There is a fair bit of research indicating that for the purpose of body fat reduction the body actually doesn't seem to care very much where the calories come from as long as they are kept within these boundaries.

While not mentioned anywhere on the site, it should be common sense that if you just eat a bunch of sugar or super high GI carbs all day you are going to feel like crap and experience poor results due to the intense hormonal response associated with such foods. As long as you have whole foods that are a good 15% protein, 55-60% carbs and 25-30% fat when viewed as a meal you can get away with a lot more in that regard.

Every meal doesn't have to be the same, it is clearly unnecessary to have as many carbs when you're sitting on your butt as right after a workout. As long as you don't go overboard you will be fine no matter what.

thank you guys.

so i try to eat porridge, 500gr chicken breast, some potatoes, 2 shakes and 2 cups of milk every day.

maybe i progress faster at my workout and maybe i could add 10kg on my frame.....

Thanks for your reply Joshua!

Josh, I've been wondering one thing regarding calorie replacement and deficit.

I could be falsely mixing past info with present, but here goes. Btw, sorry for spamming you with questions

You mentioned in a post that you only replace carbs and not fats. So, say I'm constantly, from the moment I wake up, in a ~300 kcal deficit - I then go for a 1 hour walk, which obviously doesn't burn at lot of carbs, and thus not takes much to replete.

But I DO burn calories that bring me below 400kcal deficit - should I then fill those up with fats? What would the point then be in doing extra exercise, if you're just gonna replace it with what you're trying to lose (i. e. fats), because you are never to go past 3-400 kcal deficit? OR, could it be carbs that would instead promote muscle building?

Maybe I'm doing/getting something wrong.

Hope my question makes sense...

Bissen said:

Josh, I've been wondering one thing regarding calorie replacement and deficit.

I could be falsely mixing past info with present, but here goes. Btw, sorry for spamming you with questions

You mentioned in a post that you only replace carbs and not fats. So, say I'm constantly, from the moment I wake up, in a ~300 kcal deficit - I then go for a 1 hour walk, which obviously doesn't burn at lot of carbs, and thus not takes much to replete.

But I DO burn calories that bring me below 400kcal deficit - should I then fill those up with fats? What would the point then be in doing extra exercise, if you're just gonna replace it with what you're trying to lose (i. e. fats), because you are never to go past 3-400 kcal deficit? OR, could it be carbs that would instead promote muscle building?

Maybe I'm doing/getting something wrong.

Hope my question makes sense...

That's backwards in many ways, and what I was doing was an experiment that seems to not have been the ideal way to do things, but that is a separate topic.

If you are already at a deficit when you wake up, which we all are unless we had a HUGE surplus before bedtime, the very first thing you should do is eat. If you don't, your body will have no choice but to sacrifice metabolically active mass in order to get the glucose that it needs via gluconeogenesis.

The point of exercise is that it makes your tissues more sensitive to insulin by upregulating the presence of glut-4 receptors amongst other things. In other words, your cells physically grow more of the gates that let nutrients into the cell and the gates become more reactive to insulin. That makes it take less insulin to get your body to soak in the food you eat, and that helps keep you lean.

That is why you need food + exercise.

During your walk around 40% of your burned calories are coming from carbs. That is going to be an average of 160 calories or so, which is 40g of carbs. If it takes 40g of protein to make 40g of carbs, and muscle is 80% water, you would be losing 200g of muscle tissue. That's almost half a pound. This usually doesn't happen because the protein is taken from labile tissues like extra liver and skin, but it is still taken and then when you eat you replenish those tissues. That takes away from the protein that can be used for muscle growth because it's used to rebuild your organs instead. That is another reason why eating before working out is important. That way you stay in a position to build the most actual muscle. Raw protein synthesis means nothing, what matters is WHERE the proteins are being synthesized.

You have in fact figured out one of the sad facts of life. Extra exercise will cause weight loss, but much of that weight is muscle. There is a very good reason that most people put the fat right back on after they stop exercising: They have less muscle than they did before, which means they have a slower metabolism. That makes it easier to put on fat, which they then do.

To just lose fat you have to do things more slowly (unless you are severely obese, and even then things slow down as you lose more and more fat) and with more caution. The advantage of extra exercise is that you are still using body fat to power the actual movement, even when the percentage is low (like 30%) the net calories from fat are high. When you replenish with food, you are going to be restoring glycogen and replacing less fat than you burned, so the net effect is lean tissue preservation and fat catabolism. The fate of carbohydrates, so long as they are not EXCESS carbs, is mostly energy consumption and protein synthesis, not fat synthesis. Fat, on the other hand, is only for fat synthesis or energy burned.

A calorie is not just a calorie. Where it comes from, and when you consume it, matters a lot.

Ah, insulin sensitivity; gotcha.

Am I doing it wrong if I go to sleep at night, wake up with, say, a ~500kcal deficit, eat 100-200 calories to get out of the "danger zone", and stay at a 300-400 kcal deficit throughout the day, trying to time my carb consumption to match my activity, the set 6-10g protein/h, and then fill enough fats on to not go below 400 kcal deficit?

Man, I feel like an idiot...

Bissen said:

Ah, insulin sensitivity; gotcha.

Am I doing it wrong if I go to sleep at night, wake up with, say, a ~500kcal deficit, eat 100-200 calories to get out of the "danger zone", and stay at a 300-400 kcal deficit throughout the day, trying to time my carb consumption to match my activity, the set 6-10g protein/h, and then fill enough fats on to not go below 400 kcal deficit?

Man, I feel like an idiot...

You would have to eat every 30-45 minutes to accomplish that. You'd be better off eating to get to energy balance but not a +, and then eating 400kcal every time you need it, probably every 2.5-3 hrs or so. Much more manageable, and you will probably achieve something like 80-90% of total benefits based on time under the curve. Make sure you hit enough of a surplus to not get below -400 by the time you wake up. Your metabolism is a bit slower when you sleep, so if you look at your BMR (not RMR) and divide by 24 or so you should find that it's 15-20% lower. For example, I need about 133 calories during the day per hour, not including any extra to cover physical activity beyond sitting at a desk. At night I need 88 when I sleep, so I prefer to hit a 480 calorie surplus right at bedtime. By doing this with low glycemic foods I avoid the majority of the unfavorable insulin response, and the excess surplus is so low that it won't even matter. At the very minimum, 30% of your calories need to come from carbs (not including what you eat for activities, which needs to be matched to the intensity) because that is the starter fuel for fat metabolism. Your body can and will use alternate fuels to MAKE its own glucose if you don't give it what it needs. Those fuels are your own tissues and the protein that you eat. I shouldn't have to explain why those are both crappy options.

Make sense at all?

Also, getting a nutritiming account for 1 month (if you don't have an ipad, iphone etc) is just 8 bucks and will let you see it in real time. Numbers are not as helpful as graphs.

damn diet is a very very complex thing...

im sure i never achieve the optic/strength im after because i simply dont understan when to eat what and how much, especially if you have a job where you cant say "oh its 3pm i have to eat chicken breast, veggies and a bit rice"

That's why having something like the app is so cool, you can play around with the food and discover what the best you can do is.

Besides, who said anything about chicken and whatever? More than anything else, you need calories. If you go a couple of hours without eating protein your body won't care as long as you actually have the calories. I haven't seen too many jobs where you can't pop out a powerbar or a granola bar once every hour or two. I worked on an oil drilling rig as a floorhand and still managed that.

To gain or maintain larger muscle mass on my frame I need a ton of food. At one point I ate 5-6k calories a day with one of those jobs. Nuts, shakes whatever I could get I would use. Ideal food also has to keep in mind what you can do. There is always a way if you want there to be.

I can't say what I was doing but at one point I spent two weeks living on MRE's and Chocolate Taco's....you want not ideal...

Nic Branson said:

To gain or maintain larger muscle mass on my frame I need a ton of food. At one point I ate 5-6k calories a day with one of those jobs. Nuts, shakes whatever I could get I would use. Ideal food also has to keep in mind what you can do. There is always a way if you want there to be.

I can't say what I was doing but at one point I spent two weeks living on MRE's and Chocolate Taco's....you want not ideal...

HAHAHAHAHA!!! MONSTER DUMP!

Haha depended which MRE I got that meal. For the record I avoided the eggs.

hmm.... MRE.....should I stock some in my house just for emergency?

Joshua Naterman said:

Bissen said:

Ah, insulin sensitivity; gotcha.

Am I doing it wrong if I go to sleep at night, wake up with, say, a ~500kcal deficit, eat 100-200 calories to get out of the "danger zone", and stay at a 300-400 kcal deficit throughout the day, trying to time my carb consumption to match my activity, the set 6-10g protein/h, and then fill enough fats on to not go below 400 kcal deficit?

Man, I feel like an idiot...

You would have to eat every 30-45 minutes to accomplish that. You'd be better off eating to get to energy balance but not a +, and then eating 400kcal every time you need it, probably every 2.5-3 hrs or so. Much more manageable, and you will probably achieve something like 80-90% of total benefits based on time under the curve. Make sure you hit enough of a surplus to not get below -400 by the time you wake up. Your metabolism is a bit slower when you sleep, so if you look at your BMR (not RMR) and divide by 24 or so you should find that it's 15-20% lower. For example, I need about 133 calories during the day per hour, not including any extra to cover physical activity beyond sitting at a desk. At night I need 88 when I sleep, so I prefer to hit a 480 calorie surplus right at bedtime. By doing this with low glycemic foods I avoid the majority of the unfavorable insulin response, and the excess surplus is so low that it won't even matter. At the very minimum, 30% of your calories need to come from carbs (not including what you eat for activities, which needs to be matched to the intensity) because that is the starter fuel for fat metabolism. Your body can and will use alternate fuels to MAKE its own glucose if you don't give it what it needs. Those fuels are your own tissues and the protein that you eat. I shouldn't have to explain why those are both crappy options.

Make sense at all?

Also, getting a nutritiming account for 1 month (if you don't have an ipad, iphone etc) is just 8 bucks and will let you see it in real time. Numbers are not as helpful as graphs.

But hitting ~0, and then waiting a few hours before I go below -400 - indeed much more manageable and easier to live with.

And I already do have a NutriTiming account (Though, no app... no iPhone, tsk...)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Josh, for taking your time to spell it out to me; a mere layman ;D

Joshua Naterman said:

That's why having something like the app is so cool, you can play around with the food and discover what the best you can do is.

Besides, who said anything about chicken and whatever? More than anything else, you need calories. If you go a couple of hours without eating protein your body won't care as long as you actually have the calories. I haven't seen too many jobs where you can't pop out a powerbar or a granola bar once every hour or two. I worked on an oil drilling rig as a floorhand and still managed that.

is snickers a powerbar and do you think i need more than 2500-3000 kcal.

maybe im the only one here but i dont have an iphone or ipad

itisme said:

Joshua Naterman said:

That's why having something like the app is so cool, you can play around with the food and discover what the best you can do is.

Besides, who said anything about chicken and whatever? More than anything else, you need calories. If you go a couple of hours without eating protein your body won't care as long as you actually have the calories. I haven't seen too many jobs where you can't pop out a powerbar or a granola bar once every hour or two. I worked on an oil drilling rig as a floorhand and still managed that.

is snickers a powerbar and do you think i need more than 2500-3000 kcal.

maybe im the only one here but i dont have an iphone or ipad

Where do you live, if I may ask? What kinds of stores and foods do you have?

I don't have the ipad either, I just have a laptop. I am using an Advantage account. It's not quite as convenient as the app but it is more detailed and shows the same stuff. Not having a smart phone doesn't mean you can't learn how to space out your calories properly!

of course it doesnt but it would be easier to understand the timing of nutrition.

i live in austria, what kind of stores...normal supermarkets =)...but they sell much meat and veggis from farmers, lot of fair trade food

and mostly i eat chicken breast/zander with veggies and rice/potato, porridge and a selfmade shake....but just since the last 4 weeks