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Started by Ian Myers, April 12, 2012 · 51 Replies · 12,542 Views
Thank you very much Joshua. This feedback is amazingly helpful. It will change up my FSP work routine quite a bit. never thought of doing the FSP's in a chain/circuit style before. I'll probably be adding different (i.e. easier) FSP's in there since doing L-Sit, Back lever, Front lever, Planche would kill me in one set. 
I'm guessing the same applies for FBE strength work such ad rows, dips, etc. Do all of them in a circuit pairing opposites (supersets really) with little rest between them?
kskh2o said:Thank you very much Joshua. This feedback is amazingly helpful. It will change up my FSP work routine quite a bit. never thought of doing the FSP's in a chain/circuit style before. I'll probably be adding different (i.e. easier) FSP's in there since doing L-Sit, Back lever, Front lever, Planche would kill me in one set.I'm guessing the same applies for FBE strength work such ad rows, dips, etc. Do all of them in a circuit pairing opposites (supersets really) with little rest between them?
You definitely can do that with the FBE, the WODs are typically set up that way. Sometimes it is nice to do straight sets, especially if you have focused days (example, Monday might be horizontal pulling and horizontal pressing). Straight sets just means you would do all 3-5 sets of push ups or PPP or whatever before moving on to the next exercise. Usually you will perform 3-4 sets, with 60-90s rest between sets and have 2 exercises for each of the two planes. That gives you a 12-16 set workout which is quite a bit. Not too much, but probably about as much as you would want to do.
Joshua Naterman said:Sorry about the confusion. If your max holdss are in the 10-30s range you will probably do your best with 120 seconds of rest on your work sets. You aren't going to failure, but you are still going pretty hard. This time range, which means 5-15s work sets (50% of max) is going to be strength oriented and will require a strength-oriented rest period. As your max hold moves to 40s and above you will not be using so much creatine anymore, since your glycolytic system will have adapted to the point where it can provide most of the energy. In other words, as your endurance increases your body will shift from having to use creatine for a large portion of the work (which limits hold times) to being able to use sugar (which releases energy more slowly but lasts a good bit longer).To get the rest you need it is totally ok to do a different exercise. For example, planche lean -> arch hold -> hollow hold -> hang -> some mobility work like wall slides. Then repeat 3-5 times. You are wasting no time, getting plenty of rest, and building strength quickly. It is not adviseable to do more than six sets this way, with four providing enough work for many to make good progress.
That was for strength work (10-30s max), as that should give you a good 2 minutes from one planche lean (the example I use, could be a FL hold or whatever) to the next.
As you get to the 40s max hold, you are in endurance territory and will need to start altering the rest times. You can just create two shorter series instead of one long series: Planche lean, arch hold, hang, repeat x 2-3. Then hollow hold, wall slides, BL, band warm up for 30s. Just an example. Each of those work sets would be a minimum of 20s, which gives you more like 60-90s rest, plenty for endurance work.
Well, that would've been helpful to know at the start. I was going by the "45-90s max" rest time for FSP in the book.
Joshua Naterman said:You definitely can do that with the FBE, the WODs are typically set up that way. Sometimes it is nice to do straight sets, especially if you have focused days (example, Monday might be horizontal pulling and horizontal pressing). Straight sets just means you would do all 3-5 sets of push ups or PPP or whatever before moving on to the next exercise. Usually you will perform 3-4 sets, with 60-90s rest between sets and have 2 exercises for each of the two planes. That gives you a 12-16 set workout which is quite a bit. Not too much, but probably about as much as you would want to do.
Hold on man. I thought you were supposed to rest 3-5 min between sets in each exercise to somewhat fully recover when doing strength or just working in the 1-8 rep range. Now you say you can do them back to back with another exercise without resting?
Even if i were to do say, 5 reps of pullups, and then right after 5 reps of dips i wouldn't even rest 2 min by the time i finish the dips and get to the pullups again.
Ragnarok said:Joshua Naterman said:You definitely can do that with the FBE, the WODs are typically set up that way. Sometimes it is nice to do straight sets, especially if you have focused days (example, Monday might be horizontal pulling and horizontal pressing). Straight sets just means you would do all 3-5 sets of push ups or PPP or whatever before moving on to the next exercise. Usually you will perform 3-4 sets, with 60-90s rest between sets and have 2 exercises for each of the two planes. That gives you a 12-16 set workout which is quite a bit. Not too much, but probably about as much as you would want to do.Hold on man. I thought you were supposed to rest 3-5 min between sets in each exercise to somewhat fully recover when doing strength or just working in the 1-8 rep range. Now you say you can do them back to back with another exercise without resting?
Even if i were to do say, 5 reps of pullups, and then right after 5 reps of dips i wouldn't even rest 2 min by the time i finish the dips and get to the pullups again.
It's called a superset. The basic idea is that you work different muscles in the two movements, so your 'pullup muscles' rest during the dips and your 'dip muscles' rest during the pullups. It's an effective way of shortening a workout.
Joshua Naterman said:You definitely can do that with the FBE, the WODs are typically set up that way. Sometimes it is nice to do straight sets, especially if you have focused days (example, Monday might be horizontal pulling and horizontal pressing). Straight sets just means you would do all 3-5 sets of push ups or PPP or whatever before moving on to the next exercise. Usually you will perform 3-4 sets, with 60-90s rest between sets and have 2 exercises for each of the two planes. That gives you a 12-16 set workout which is quite a bit. Not too much, but probably about as much as you would want to do.
This is exactly how I do my FBE work now. I rest 60 secs between sets. But this means I am not fully recovered (not resting 5 minuted between sets). I was walking away with the notion that it was better for strength work to wait longer than what i had been doing...
I like doing straight sets as it gives me more of an accomplishment feeling after I finish the last set (especially if I have gone over past performance). But I would not be able to do straight sets and wait 5 minutes for full recovery, just the usual 60 - 90 sec rest.
Rik de Kort said:It's called a superset. The basic idea is that you work different muscles in the two movements, so your 'pullup muscles' rest during the dips and your 'dip muscles' rest during the pullups. It's an effective way of shortening a workout.
Yeah i know what a superset is. For some reason i didn't think about it when i read the post, maybe because i heard its not the same or its not as effective to do supersets i don't remember. I think i read its just better to rest instead of doing a different exercise because even if its a completely different one you still get tired.
Im all for being time-efficient and getting things done faster but i don't know about this.
Like right now for example im doing 4 exercises per workout (2 pulling 2 pushing) 5x5, it takes an hour to an hour and 10min to get it done. Will it be better to chain it all?
Like, pair 2, finish those, and then pair the other 2? Or would doing 1 set of each exercise be better? Like for example, 1 set of pullups, then 1 set of pushups, then one set of rows and then 1 set of diamond pushups until i do 5 sets of each?
Time-wise, yes. Recovery wise, no.
You could alternate two them with moderate rest breaks between them. So you get more rest between the same movement sets. It's also a way to add variety in.
Nic Branson said:You could alternate two them with moderate rest breaks between them. So you get more rest between the same movement sets. It's also a way to add variety in.
I tried it yesterday. It sucks. At least for me and right now it does, i much prefer straight sets. I even took a min and a half between exercises and my heart was still beating somewhat fast. I was sweating more and i felt a bit more tired and performance dropped a little. I write everything down so just knowing i did less is enough to stay away from this, at least for now. Maybe later and more advanced it works better.
Also walking around from one exercise to the other (the pushing ones i have to do inside my house and the pulling ones outside) every time and setting up the weights (i have some flimsy backpack at the moment while i make the weight vest) wasn't nice at all. This probably made me sweat more than the actual exercise.
One thing I noticed with supersets while lifting is that they build excellent adaptation to high intensity intervals. Once your body gets used to high load and rest, recovery times become shorter. Helps to jump rope or sprint once or twice a week as well. It is a different work load, but your body adapts to it (just like anything else).
That being said, even after years of working with supersets, I definitely dont recover as well as resting 90 seconds between regular sets when doing supersets, work is still work even with a different muscle group. And overal work done in terms of sets and reps is not as much as set after set. It does crazy things to my metabolism though. I'm not sold on supersets for pure strength work as well. Since I cannot wait 5 minutes between sets, i'll keep doing 90 sec rests for now as the betternchoice for fbe work I think.
Supersets are more appropriate when performing endurance-oriented exercise. Straight sets are great for endurance as well, but when performing strength-oriented exercise (which, if you notice in the WODs (for those who have access to the full template), are usually NOT basic strength days) you will usually do better with straight sets.
Basic strength days are actually focusing a bit more on the stabilizing musculature, which is why you tend to see slower tempos, sometimes 5s in each direction. 10s per rep for 5 reps is 50s, nearly pure anaerobic endurance work. The slow tempo also forces you to use your stabilizing musculature and not just the prime movers. This is why it is often necessary to step down 2-3 levels for basic strength work. It is not maximal strength, you should really think of this as more of structural integrity training.
Maximal strength training is important and has its place, but for some reason everyone avoids basic strength (structural integrity) work. Without that you are a house of cards waiting to collapse on itself when hit with the right wind. This is responsible for a large percentage of avoidable training injuries.
Know what your goal is for each day and set up the exercises appropriately.
Rik de Kort said:Time-wise, yes. Recovery wise, no.
That's right. I experienced it first hand.
Joshua Naterman said:Maximal strength training is important and has its place, but for some reason everyone avoids basic strength (structural integrity) work. Without that you are a house of cards waiting to collapse on itself when hit with the right wind. This is responsible for a large percentage of avoidable training injuries.
What's the difference between maximal strength and basic strength?
Maximal 1 rep max or work above 90% of your max typically.
Basic strength is your bread and butter work around 65%-80% give or take based on fiber type, movement and goal at the time.
Basic strength gives you the foundation to build greater maximal strength on.
Joshua Naterman said:Know what your goal is for each day and set up the exercises appropriately.
Great insight again. For someone that has trained in a much simpler straight forward way (Go to the gym, do compound exercises, do HIIT, rest, rinse repeat), the planning of strength days/maximal strength days/endurance days is quite foreign. Or maybe I have been doing it without realizing it.
In a thread where us newcomers to GB, are learning to put together our own workout routines (and a great thread where we have a lot of info on how to structure FSP's followed by FBE's on a weekly basis, rest times etc). Could it be adequate to talk about how one would go about designing their routine to fit the max strength/stabilizer strength/endurance work? (My spider sense is telling me I'm going to get a quick reply telling me to follow the WOD's, but that's giving a man a fish and not teaching him how to fish.)
I mean is this a weekly thing, something to switch around every two weeks, or a monthly thing? Should I be dedicating one of my weekly workdays to one type of work or should be rotating weekly exercises to fit these different aspects? Sorry if I'm reading too much into this or over complicating things. 
kskh2o said:Joshua Naterman said:Know what your goal is for each day and set up the exercises appropriately.
Great insight again. For someone that has trained in a much simpler straight forward way (Go to the gym, do compound exercises, do HIIT, rest, rinse repeat), the planning of strength days/maximal strength days/endurance days is quite foreign. Or maybe I have been doing it without realizing it.
In a thread where us newcomers to GB, are learning to put together our own workout routines (and a great thread where we have a lot of info on how to structure FSP's followed by FBE's on a weekly basis, rest times etc). Could it be adequate to talk about how one would go about designing their routine to fit the max strength/stabilizer strength/endurance work? (My spider sense is telling me I'm going to get a quick reply telling me to follow the WOD's, but that's giving a man a fish and not teaching him how to fish.)
I mean is this a weekly thing, something to switch around every two weeks, or a monthly thing? Should I be dedicating one of my weekly workdays to one type of work or should be rotating weekly exercises to fit these different aspects? Sorry if I'm reading too much into this or over complicating things.
There are a lot of ways to do this. The WOD approach works, when approached correctly, because you
A) are automatically led through loading and deloading phases without realizing it, B) are on a
28-30 day cycle instead of a 7 day cycle, which allows for a more optimal spreading of gymnastic
work, and C) you are never doing too much volume from the WODs alone. Unless, of course, you are
treating every workout like a personal challenge. Then you will be in trouble.
You have to do at least one set of endurance work to failure every other day to maintain endurance
adaptations. Pre-requisite cycles of SSC work tend to fulfill this quite well, so endurance work
is already built in 4 days per week. No one seems to realize that. That is one of the fundamental parts of the GB program and used correctly it is a powerful injury prevention protocol.
I almost put my entire protocol up here, but that would be a mistake. Here's what you get:
Build your slow movement before you build your fast movement. If you don't have good form slow, you won't have good form fast. Ease in. Be smart. Eat well.
Stabilizing strength is more important than basic strength endurance, and basic strength endurance is more important than max strength. Develop them in that order. Pre-req work (don't forget supports) is most important, basic strength is next, and when both of those are solid you can start adding max strength.
In all cases, full ROM is the priority. Once you have full ROM, build your basic strength with it. Continue to use Full ROM with max strength work.
Good luck!
hey slizz whats your opinion on throwing in 2-3 endurance sets at the end of a strength workout? e.g one of my pulling days - half back pulls 5sets 3-4reps, Cranks 5sets 3-4 reps, Bulgarian L pullups 5sets 3-4 reps, front lever pulls 5sets 3-4 reps and just pound out 2-3 sets of high rep regular chin ups? or it would be better if they were on separate days?
anhkun said:hey slizz whats your opinion on throwing in 2-3 endurance sets at the end of a strength workout? e.g one of my pulling days - half back pulls 5sets 3-4reps, Cranks 5sets 3-4 reps, Bulgarian L pullups 5sets 3-4 reps, front lever pulls 5sets 3-4 reps and just pound out 2-3 sets of high rep regular chin ups? or it would be better if they were on separate days?
Not ideal, but if you can't fit them anywhere else it is ok.
You would be better off doing those later in the day, at least 3-4 hours later (or earlier) because that will detract somewhat from a true max strength workout. You want your nervous system to focus on one response at a time.
What you are doing sounds closer to basic strength, and no I don't think that would be a HUGE issue if that is the case... it is still not ideal. Having a 4-5 minute high rep chin up session earlier or later in the day shouldn't be a problem unless you don't have a tree branch or a pull up bar handy any time other than that one workout.
Joshua Naterman said:anhkun said:hey slizz whats your opinion on throwing in 2-3 endurance sets at the end of a strength workout? e.g one of my pulling days - half back pulls 5sets 3-4reps, Cranks 5sets 3-4 reps, Bulgarian L pullups 5sets 3-4 reps, front lever pulls 5sets 3-4 reps and just pound out 2-3 sets of high rep regular chin ups? or it would be better if they were on separate days?Not ideal, but if you can't fit them anywhere else it is ok.
You would be better off doing those later in the day, at least 3-4 hours later (or earlier) because that will detract somewhat from a true max strength workout. You want your nervous system to focus on one response at a time.
What you are doing sounds closer to basic strength, and no I don't think that would be a HUGE issue if that is the case... it is still not ideal. Having a 4-5 minute high rep chin up session earlier or later in the day shouldn't be a problem unless you don't have a tree branch or a pull up bar handy any time other than that one workout.
if i do it beforehand like 3-4hrs? would that effect my basic strength workout even though its minimal? i think it be better if i do it after but its hard to find a timing cos i usually workout at night
Would speed endurance, special endurance 1, and special endurance 2 of sprinters be considered anaerobic endurance? I sure know it can't be aerobic endurance because it is still sprinting, but I'm not sure if there are other types of endurance.
Do sprinters also do basic strength work? I know they mainly do max strength work, power work, along with their track workouts, but they sometimes do general strength circuits (basic bodyweight exercises) and bodybuilding circuits (6-12 rep range) for general conditioning and to relieve joints and muscles or maybe prehab and rehab. Would that be considered training basic strength or structural integrity for them?
anhkun said:if i do it beforehand like 3-4hrs? would that effect my basic strength workout even though its minimal? i think it be better if i do it after but its hard to find a timing cos i usually workout at night
You have to experiment. Can't say.
kind of unrelated, but Ive always wondered this. When would you know when "proficiency of the FBEs has been achieved" and you can move onto advanced ring strength exercises? Will it be explained in the next book? Just curious :wink:
That is a good question. I don't know if that will be in the next book, I haven't seen the whole thing. I would imagine so.
The way I do this is by transitioning. I don't just change from one thing to the next, because that next progression is usually a bit tough. I usually work into it over 1-2 months, one set at a time.
Example: It's time to move from push ups on the floor to XR push ups. Week 1: I would warm up as usual, and then do 1 set of XR push ups and 3 sets of push ups on the floor the first week. If that isn't too hard, meaning that I get close to (or meet) my target reps then week 2 I will most likely perform 2 sets of each, with the two sets of XR push ups as my first two sets. I will probably repeat this for my 3rd week even if everything seems fine. Week 4, if everything feels fine during week 3, I will do 3 sets XR push ups and 1 set floor push ups. Again, I will probably repeat this for week 5, just to make SURE my body doesn't act up or lie to me. Week 6 will be where my floor push ups become the warm up set and my 4 work sets are XR push ups.
You should never lose the earlier exercises altogether, they should always be a part of your warm ups. That seems to work best.
Yes, and doing a few tucked front pulls and front lever rows before doing flat tuck yewkis is a good idea. Things like that. HSPU and PPP followed by chest rolls to warm up for Bowers, etc.