Anything similar to deadlift?

Bipocni said:

 (...) I have very little experience in track & field.  A well designed sprint program would include far more elements than we've discussed here (...)

hehehe, yes to both...

This is outside of the scope of this thread, but you can actually sprint all out for 300m, maybe 340m... When I ran 400's, the main objective of training was to acquire the endurance necessary to push the wall a bit further (the wall you hit between 280 and 340, I think when your ATP-CP & [Lactate] Glycogen systems are exhausted)

You can attack this three ways: (1) pacing, (2) increase of your anaerobic endurance, & (3) technique, mostly a better use of the arms and upper body.

Technique is also what takes you through the last part of the race.

I was never good at pacing (it did not make a difference in my wall) & I hated every single component of the endurance building training, but our small club needed someone on the 400 & I was obsolete for the 100 & 200 in the end.

Maybe the top guys that you see finishing their races fresh can push the wall beyond 400? I don't know.

Wow, didn't expect so many different replies to my questions, haha. Thanks for all the great info guys; I will definitely keep all of the tips in mind. My main purpose is mainly to push the limits of my anaerobic/aerobic capacity and endurance especially because I will be going to USMC bootcamp this mid-March. Speed is a secondary goal although that would be really nice since running fast was always a random fitness goal of mine.

Suggest checking out the information at http://www.military.com/military-fitness/  as well...

e.g. http://www.military.com/military-fitness/fitness-test-prep/-no-weights-at-bootcamp

I personally think that besides sprinits, which will develop the glutes and hamstrings massively, the best alternative to the deadlift would be the gymnastics bridge, which will work the entire posterior chain, in addition to this, I would suggest the Front Lever, for the upper back.

I would imagine if an individual could hold a good bridge, and a front lever, then they would have some serious posterior chain strength as a result.

Yours,

Beev

There's some great info on this thread! Thanks.

Definitely going to add in more sprints. Going to get a tire as well for resistance. I live on a hill so it's very convenient.

Though I'm not sure how I'll fit in the extra sprints with the WODs, though it shouldn't be too difficult.

Beev said:

the best alternative to the deadlift would be the gymnastics bridge, which will work the entire posterior chain

I can't even hold a bridge, but as far as I know bridging is more about mobility and shoulder openness than strength. This isn't the place to be discussing what bridges are and aren't, but you don't really want to be bending from the spine and pulling through the spine - rather opening up along the whole length including the shoulders. So it's not so much of a strength exercise.

Bridge has very little to do with the deadlift, quite honestly, and doesn't even come close to replacing a deadlift's strength benefits, just as a deadlift doesn't even begin to give you the mobility benefits that bridge work does.

Fred: You totally left out one of the most important parts of endurance for the 400: muscle glycogen. You're nearly pure anaerobic during this, and CP will barely get you to the 80 meter mark. You never get to use the lactate (aerobic glycolysis) system.

Joshua Naterman said:

Fred: You totally left out one of the most important parts of endurance for the 400: muscle glycogen. You're nearly pure anaerobic during this, and CP will barely get you to the 80 meter mark. You never get to use the lactate (aerobic glycolysis) system.

Oops, yes, thank you Joshua! I meant glycogen, not lactate, sorry! 

I heard that back levers have a fairly high carryover to deadlifts.  I assume it's because the emphasis is on your posterior chain to hold your back up, hip extension ect.  So it probably has a higher carryover than front lever, where the emphasis is on the abs and hip flexors to resist gravity. 

However, the static hold of the front lever is similar to the static hold of the deadlift, so working both would be best.

I'm not sure if planche has the same carryover that back levers have, but it seems similar in my head.

Between back/front levers and the GHR, you could get a pretty serious deadlift going.

 Either lever is good and by the time you can do the straight version of one or the other, you will have some basic to intermediate pull strength to go in hand besides grip strength (since you will not have fallen off the bar during say a long duration front or back lever hold). Core strength is taxed in both.

 Though neither prepare your hips for the deadlift weight. Well decent weights. But at least your pull and core strength will be ample.

Before I joined a gym 9 months ago, I did all my exercises in my backyard and just did the posted WODs from here. When I joined the gym (to start squat and DL training), I was able to max DL around 315 at a bodyweight of 145 lbs. 

Joshua Naterman said:

Bridge has very little to do with the deadlift, quite honestly, and doesn't even come close to replacing a deadlift's strength benefits, just as a deadlift doesn't even begin to give you the mobility benefits that bridge work does.

Can you be more specific on the deadlift's strength benefits?

irongymnast said:

Can you be more specific on the deadlift's strength benefits?

It's the standard stuff: The entire posterior chain is loaded, from the bottom of your feet up the back of your legs, spine, and neck, as well as your mid and rear shoulder girdle, wrist flexors/extensors, and hand muscles. Your abs clench up tight to support your spine. The front of the legs also work quite a bit.

My opinion of what a gymnastic equivalent of deadlift would be pistol squats plus a range of levers and a planche. I ain't deadlifted weights in a while. My experience in deadlifts is it works the muscle surrounding the spine, can't remember what's its called. I can't think of a bodyweight exercise that works that muscle, planches and levers are the closest i can think of.

I know the bridge targets the spinal cord fairly directly, and pulling through into a back limber would require incredible amounts of strength.

As for pistols being equivalent to deadlifts.... It depends how you deadlift whether the emphasis is on your quads or hamstrings, but unless you load your pistols you're going to hit a ceiling pretty quickly.  Anyone with a bodyweight front squat and a good sense of balance can perform pistols with easy, but there are people out there squatting maybe FIVE TIMES that much.

And remember, the deadlift is more than just a neat hip hinge exercise.  It also requires incredible amounts of core strength (look at Konstantinov's abs!) grip strength, scapula stability ect... All of which can be built by various levers...

But to really replace the deadlift, you need to combine at least 3 different exercises.  For people who want the most bang for your buck, I say just deadlift.

Mind you, those 3 (or more) exercises will have other benefits as well.  (conditioning, proportional strength and mobility to name a few)

You can't replace deadlifts, because you cannot replace the axial loading on the spine. With anything. It just doesn't work like that.

As far as training the muscles you use, GST takes care of that.

For the lower body, GHR, NLC.

For the spine, arch ups and curl ups.

For the abs... come on, everything we do hits abs. If you are following F1-4, abs will never be a problem.

For grip, the rope climb progressions will develop a mean grip. You will all find out just how much when you start hitting the actual rope climb exercises

Handstand work will develop the upper traps.

The pulling work we do will develop the posterior shoulder girdle, and when you hit multi plane pulls you'll have more strength than you need in this area.

What we do in the Foundation program absolutely builds the muscles necessary to have a fairly impressive deadlift. That doesn't mean your numbers won't spike dramatically your first few months on the bar, and it doesn't mean that everything in F1 is identical to a deadlift, or that ANYTHING in the Foundation program can techically replace all benefits of the deadlift.

What this means is that the Foundation work will give you a body that will automatically start off with a pretty good DL for your bodyweight.

One other thought - it doesn't work the other way around. I have a respectable deadlift - I can use all of my bumper plates (170kg - 374lbs) for an easy triple at a bodyweight of ~185 pounds (probably about 20 pounds over where I should be). Yet many of the F1 preparatory movements are too challenging for me. A combination of injury history and horrid mobility play the biggest part in that, but the point is I can put up reasonable numbers in the deadlift and it doesn't carry-over much at all. Yet I have known numerous people who were gymnasts and can put up the same type of numbers without having trained for it. Food for thought.

- Chris

Chewy, delicious food. You know, for thought.

chobbs said:

One other thought - it doesn't work the other way around. I have a respectable deadlift - I can use all of my bumper plates (170kg - 374lbs) for an easy triple at a bodyweight of ~185 pounds (probably about 20 pounds over where I should be). Yet many of the F1 preparatory movements are too challenging for me. A combination of injury history and horrid mobility play the biggest part in that, but the point is I can put up reasonable numbers in the deadlift and it doesn't carry-over much at all. Yet I have known numerous people who were gymnasts and can put up the same type of numbers without having trained for it. Food for thought.

 

- Chris

I am currently deadlifting everyday (Steve Justa's  DL singles program) alongside F1 and have noticed the same thing. Although having a decent DL may not carry-over hugely to the earlier elements of gymnastics training such as those in F1, I have found that it has certainly helped with some of the more difficult exercises. One example, the last time I tested my FL a few months ago before deadlifting daily, I could hold a tucked FL for around 7s but any attempt at flattening the back or slowing extending a leg was pretty unsuccessful. I can now hold a FL with one leg tucked and one leg completely straight for around 3 seconds, and this is without training FL at all over the past few months (asides from the F1 FL training which I begun incorporating a few weeks ago ago). Further food for thought  

As an aside, I believe the strength balance that F1 provides across the whole body alongside the iM have definitely improved my DL, even after only a few weeks of incorporating them

When I was taught how to deadlift after training GST for a short while, I pulled twice my body weight on the first try and still could have done more. The bar just jumped off the ground. It felt so easy that now I no longer do conventional deadlifts and only do it in a snatch grip with my starting position way lower.