Project Iron Cross

I have trained for this move off and on for the last couple of years. I have had shoulder injuries and lack of equipment and all sorts of hinderances slowing me down from getting the strength necessary to do a held cross. That time is over. I have installed rings in my home and will be following Steven Low's guide to learning the cross. By doing this i am conflicting with Coach's suggestion that you have a solid ring planche before embarking on this journey. However, i'm not going to wait another year while i build my planche strength back up. I will simultaneously work on the two skills and hope to have the cross sometime this year. Because of my rotator cuff problems i am back to a tuck planche on rings. So realistically i will probably have a cross before i have a planche :oops: Its hard to put a time frame on this move because i tend to build strength quickly... yet this is supposed to take a year or so. I think in 6 months i should have or be darn close to a solid cross. So September 12th is the goal. We will see how my progress goes. Oh by the way... i don't have a gymnast body at all lol.

height: 5'11

weight: 190

Training will start with phase one where you do three days a week of a slow controlled decent follwed by a stop and an explosive acension. 3 sets of 5. So thats what i will be doing toinght after coaching and todays WOD.(which i am just now getting back into as well btw) 8)

RyanC said:

Steven Low's guide to learning the cross. By doing this i am conflicting with Coach's suggestion that you have a solid ring planche before embarking on this journey. However, i'm not going to wait another year while i build my planche strength back up

that's a mistake, but perhaps one you need to learn from firsthand.

Thx but its an informed decision i have made after already having trained for the cross and having plenty of ring experience over the past few years. Most importantly i'll listen to my body and if i need to back down then i will.

Monday 3/12/12

Ring Lsit 3x15

Adv Front Lever- 3x20

Back lever 2x5

Getting back to static holds was an eye opener. My back lever was just painful! A good kind of pain. Low numbers but i'll increase the variety of FSP work as time goes on.

Giant Set of:

3x10 SLS onto four inches

3x5 NLC

3x6 circular archups

30 seconds of straddle L work

Iron Cross work

set 1) 4 pullouts

set 2) 3 pullouts

set 3) 4 pullouts

I need to make sure my upper body is properly warmed up next time. i thought the FSP's would do it. Wrong. Either way this was more of a see how it feels day than anything else. I didn't want to push too hard. So i came up 4 reps short on the Rx'd 15 pullouts and still felt good about my training. Today my elbows feel good and overall i can't wait to do the Press workout coming up.

Statics are poor warm ups, think about what they do: They cut off bloodflow. You need to increase bloodflow in your warm up, meaning high reps of light resistance progressing to moderate reps with moderate resistance. This is fairly basic, but easy to lose sight of.

As has already been stated, you are approaching the rings from a less than ideal perspective.

Having said that, and knowing that your mind is closed to a more systematic and well-rounded approach, you should strongly consider practicing slow (10-1-10 or slower) tempo butterfly pulls on slightly wider than shoulder width freemotion machines. Setting the arms at the #2 position on both vertical and horizontal planes is the best place for cross prep work. If you don't have that available, find a way to put 4 eyebolts into a ceiling or large tree branche and set up a garage pulley on each (they have ball bearings and are extremely strong and smooth) so that you have the same kind of resistance available. This is a pretty accurate rings simulator and will allow you to slowly (and I mean slowly) build the strength that you need. You can always alter ROM to suit what you think are your particular needs. I will suggest that you focus pretty heavily on full butterflies. They will let you know right away if your scapular and/or rotator cuff musculature is up to par or not.

This is the most specific cross prep you can do, and on its own is not going to be enough to build a balanced body but that doesn't seem to be your goal for some reason.

Good luck.

Thx Sliz...

I am aware that my approach is imbalanced. However, i have no interest in building an imbalanced body. I posted this on the forum to absorb and apply the counsel of others. Over the course of my switching to gymnastic training i had many injuries from weight lifting. I have no intention of going down that road again. While i won't stop my cross training without knowing the exact why's involved ... I am willing to do the butterflies on the free motion machine to continue to build slow cross strength. For now i will replace 2 sessions of my theraband X training with 2 butterfly free motion sessions. Is that slightly more balanced enough? I have a lot of respect for you and Coach and if something is going to benefit me long term then i am going to listen. I simply thought that Coach was saying that having a solid planche on rings was optimal yet not required. I have done all the other items on his list of elbow prep except for that one. If i am going to run into debilitating injuries simply from training the skill before having the necessary planche strength then i will stop today. I just simply have my own experiences to draw from. My elbows were fine during the training and i got to the point where i could do slow negative butterflies and at least stop the decent for a brief second on the high rings. That was doing X training several times a week including theraband butterflies. One more question... at what point in ring planche progression is the ideal point to begin "approved" X training? I'm much more open than you might think to advice. I simply have had no one to guide me in this goal of mine and could use some help.

RyanC said:

Thx Sliz...

I am aware that my approach is imbalanced. However, i have no interest in building an imbalanced body. I posted this on the forum to absorb and apply the counsel of others. Over the course of my switching to gymnastic training i had many injuries from weight lifting. I have no intention of going down that road again. While i won't stop my cross training without knowing the exact why's involved ... I am willing to do the butterflies on the free motion machine to continue to build slow cross strength. For now i will replace 2 sessions of my theraband X training with 2 butterfly free motion sessions. Is that slightly more balanced enough? I have a lot of respect for you and Coach and if something is going to benefit me long term then i am going to listen. I simply thought that Coach was saying that having a solid planche on rings was optimal yet not required. I have done all the other items on his list of elbow prep except for that one. If i am going to run into debilitating injuries simply from training the skill before having the necessary planche strength then i will stop today. I just simply have my own experiences to draw from. My elbows were fine during the training and i got to the point where i could do slow negative butterflies and at least stop the decent for a brief second on the high rings. That was doing X training several times a week including theraband butterflies. One more question... at what point in ring planche progression is the ideal point to begin "approved" X training? I'm much more open than you might think to advice. I simply have had no one to guide me in this goal of mine and could use some help.

No worries! It sounded like you were pretty dead set on just doing what you had in mind.

I don't understand all of the benefits of planche before IC besides essentially guaranteeing elbow readiness and at the same time building a lot of strength that carries over to the shoulder position for IC as well as maltese. Coach would have to provide a more complete explanation, I just don't have the detailed knowledge to give a complete explanation for that. One thing that is for sure is that it helps overall development in ring strength if you follow Coach's pre-requisites precisely. it is a fairly long process, taking 2-4 years depending on where you are and how good your base really is, but at the end of that time you will be farther along in all areas than you will be with your current plan.

Do you have at least a 1/2 straight arm press to handstand? If you've got all the bases covered except for planche you should be ok, but I believe Coach's requirement for XR planche is a solid 3s straddle at minimum. That should improve along with your cross.

From the looks of things, you will benefit heavily from proper Y and I lifts, shoulder W drills, and proper foot supported rows. It is hard to explain in words, a video works better. Can you do straight arm HS press on floor or PB slowly? Those would be great as well if you aren't currently using those as prep work. Overall, you just need to make sure that you are working with proper shape and working on scapular retraction strength with proper body shape. Everything has to have proper body shape or the muscle activation is wrong and that leads to issues down the road. Proper body shape is a proper hollow with the head and neck packed (in line with the spine, and upper t-spine extended to 0 degrees. A straight line with a very smooth, very slight flexion curve from mid t-spine down to the sacrum. We're not talking much, this is very close to straight. That head and neck along with upper t-spine is CRUCIAL, without that happening in all your movements they are all sub-optimal in terms of how strong you are in them and how strong you can get. Whether or not that will lead to injury depends on you, impossible to say from here but the risk is higher.

Can you do straight arm HS press on floor or PB slowly? Do you have at least a 1/2 straight arm press to handstand?

Sure. I can straight arm press to handstand on floor. I lost strength in it due to my rotator cuff injury and i continue to train it to get my former strength back. The move is a favorite of mine and i insist on using no momentum or jumping Ever. So yes i can press slow. But i haven't got the feel of it back on pbars unfortuantely. I've begun to train negatives so i can get that back.

From the looks of things, you will benefit heavily from proper Y and I lifts, shoulder W drills, and proper foot supported rows. I don't know what a Y lift or an l lift is or shoulder W drills are :?:

Overall, you just need to make sure that you are working with proper shape and working on scapular retraction strength with proper body shape. Everything has to have proper body shape or the muscle activation is wrong and that leads to issues down the road. Proper body shape is a proper hollow with the head and neck packed (in line with the spine, and upper t-spine extended to 0 degrees. A straight line with a very smooth, very slight flexion curve from mid t-spine down to the sacrum. We're not talking much, this is very close to straight. That head and neck along with upper t-spine is CRUCIAL, without that happening in all your movements they are all sub-optimal in terms of how strong you are in them and how strong you can get. Whether or not that will lead to injury depends on you, impossible to say from here but the risk is higher.

what? lol... .the importance of scapular retraction is a new concept to me and something that i haven't yet begun to employ consciously in my holds. Would it be safe to say that any straight body move would need to have the shoulders squeezed back? I think my hollow shape is pretty good. i spent time correcting it after learning the exact muscles that should be firing and how it should be formed. I'm sure it could be improved in one way or another tho.

3/13

I didn't get to do a gymnastic workout today. instead i did a football workout getting ready for flag football. It got my heart going so that was good. i'll have to get my pressing workout in on Wednesday some kind of way.

RyanC said:

Can you do straight arm HS press on floor or PB slowly? Do you have at least a 1/2 straight arm press to handstand?

Sure. I can straight arm press to handstand on floor. I lost strength in it due to my rotator cuff injury and i continue to train it to get my former strength back. The move is a favorite of mine and i insist on using no momentum or jumping Ever. So yes i can press slow. But i haven't got the feel of it back on pbars unfortuantely. I've begun to train negatives so i can get that back.

From the looks of things, you will benefit heavily from proper Y and I lifts, shoulder W drills, and proper foot supported rows. I don't know what a Y lift or an l lift is or shoulder W drills are :?:

Overall, you just need to make sure that you are working with proper shape and working on scapular retraction strength with proper body shape. Everything has to have proper body shape or the muscle activation is wrong and that leads to issues down the road. Proper body shape is a proper hollow with the head and neck packed (in line with the spine, and upper t-spine extended to 0 degrees. A straight line with a very smooth, very slight flexion curve from mid t-spine down to the sacrum. We're not talking much, this is very close to straight. That head and neck along with upper t-spine is CRUCIAL, without that happening in all your movements they are all sub-optimal in terms of how strong you are in them and how strong you can get. Whether or not that will lead to injury depends on you, impossible to say from here but the risk is higher.

what? lol... .the importance of scapular retraction is a new concept to me and something that i haven't yet begun to employ consciously in my holds. Would it be safe to say that any straight body move would need to have the shoulders squeezed back? I think my hollow shape is pretty good. i spent time correcting it after learning the exact muscles that should be firing and how it should be formed. I'm sure it could be improved in one way or another tho.

Impossible to say how good the hollow is, chances are that from the shoulders down it is perfect. As long as your head isn't protruding forward it should be fine.

It's not that every straight body move needs to have the shoulders squeezed back, what matters is that the traps are firing correctly. For that to happen, the neck has to be in line with the spine. This changes the feel of everything. You may already be doing this, I don't know. Video of various movements would show us for sure.

The HS pressing strength is good, it does sound like you are ok for cross training. The planche work you are doing, along with taking your time with cross pullout progressions, should be fine. What you will need to work on, if you are not already, is retraction strength to keep the shoulders balanced. It takes a significant amount of strength to do proper Bulgarian rows, I can't even do them quite right. As I continue working on my neck and upper back positioning this continues to improve.

A large part of strength comes from being able to hold the correct posture... a surprising amount, honestly.

Well alright! Glad i got the ok. I plan to take my time with the X and do everything i can to prepare the rest of my body for my continued training on the rings and other apparatus. I'll make a video showing various holds like front lever, back lever, X pullouts, floor press, and anything else that might help. The science behind all of this is truly amazing. I had no idea head position could limit your growth in strength. Going down this road will significantly improve my training as well as my ability to coach higher level moves. I'll try to get that video up by this weekend. Thx again...

I'm not going to pretend to have any practical knowledge of this, but Coach Sommer's pre-req is for the press HS from rings.

Cole Dano said:

...I'm not going to pretend to have any practical knowledge of this, but Coach Sommer's pre-req is for the press HS from rings ...

Cole is correct. The requirement is for the press handstand to be performed on the rings with the elbows locked and the rings turned out. Accomplishing this prequisite is necessary to adequately prepare the brachialis for the rigors of the more advanced ring strength elements to come. Depending upon the individual, continuing on thru planche prior to implementing iron cross work may or may not be necessary.

ts00nami said:

RyanC wrote:

Steven Low's guide to learning the cross. By doing this i am conflicting with Coach's suggestion that you have a solid ring planche before embarking on this journey. However, i'm not going to wait another year while i build my planche strength back up

that's a mistake, but perhaps one you need to learn from firsthand.

ts00nami is also correct and speaks from personal experience. You would be very wise to heed him.

Not too many years ago, ts00nami went down a path very similiar to the one you are getting ready to embark upon and ended up with a severely injured elbow that blew up to twice its normal size and took the better part of a year to heal. The excellent progress that he currently demonstrates is built upon the painful lesson that he learned then of the overwhelming importance of patience and utilizing correct progressions.

The host of shoulder injuries you referenced have indicated that you already have a predilection for pushing yourself in your training when you should be pausing. Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of hard work and work my own athletes incredibly hard; but at the right time and under the right circumstances.

Be very careful with how you approach iron cross training. Recommendations of let's build intensity AND volume AND explosiveness simultaneously :roll:, coupled with admonitions to "push through the pain" are the result of developmental nearsightedness and inexperience coupled with a fundamental misunderstanding of how to develop high level ring strength and will often result in long term chronic injuries. Everyone gets excited whenever a new short cut is being promoted, however after over 40 years of high level gymnastics, I can assure you that there are no "short cuts" - only "right cuts" if you'll forgive the play on words.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

slow and steady wins the race...

fast and impatient = time rehabbing/resting/worrying about injury > quality workout time and results...

if it feels like your slightly under training on rings but are getting consistent quality workouts, your doing it right. "pushing through" or "being hero" is not for rings. leave your ego at the door

its not worth being stubborn... learn from tsoonami's experience, learn from my 2 shoulder surgeries

... oh, and coach sommer might know a thing or two about this stuff :wink: :wink: nudge nudge

Coach Sommer said:

no "short cuts" - only "right cuts"

That could be the new GB motto! Words to train by for certain.

IC is so tempting, even in my very low level Yoga Strength group there will be someone who tries to do an IC and they can't even hold a decent support. It's one subject I don't allow any joking around with, IC is strictly forbidden territory. Maybe one day some will get there, but it will be a long and injury free road.

Actually one of my best moments teaching this year was when a student said now when he watches Gymnastics he can appreciate how hard the rings really are.

Cole is correct. The requirement is for the press handstand to be performed on the rings with the elbows locked and the rings turned out. Accomplishing this prequisite is necessary to adequately prepare the brachialis for the rigors of the more advanced ring strength elements to come. Depending upon the individual, continuing on thru planche prior to implementing iron cross work may or may not be necessary.

Then that is what i will work on Coach. During my X training time i will focus on acheiving that Monster of a skill right there. I call it that because of the rarity it is to see it done correctly in competitions by optional level gymnasts. I look forward to starting the right way and having specific advice to get me there.

that's a mistake, but perhaps one you need to learn from firsthandI will no longer be learning firsthand when others have firsthand experience. I'm not as foolish as i used to be when i was younger.

The host of shoulder injuries you referenced have indicated that you already have a predilection for pushing yourself in your training when you should be pausing. Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of hard work and work my own athletes incredibly hard; but at the right time and under the right circumstances.

Actually Coach my shoulder injuries came from breakdancing. I did a freeze and messed up both shoulders in one move :oops: The culprit was me. I didn't spend the necessary time rehabing them until Years later. I went to a chiropractor for muslce work and just now feel healthy. So yes you are right. But from that i have learned to Slow down and completely rehab and then prehab injuries.

Be very careful with how you approach iron cross training. Recommendations of let's build intensity AND volume AND explosiveness simultaneously :roll:, coupled with admonitions to "push through the pain" are the result of developmental nearsightedness and inexperience coupled with a fundamental misunderstanding of how to develop high level ring strength and will often result in long term chronic injuries. Everyone gets excited whenever a new short cut is being promoted, however after over 40 years of high level gymnastics, I can assure you that there are no "short cuts" - only "right cuts" if you'll forgive the play on words.

My iron cross work will only be done, as i mentioned earlier, with the advice and wisdom of those that came before me and those who are informed. "Project Iron X" does Not mean lets get on the rings and do cross pullouts until i can hold it 2 seconds. If i need to learn and develop strength an control in a certain position first then i will. And only then will i move on. So that is what i will do. I will stop the pullouts(for the most part as long as i can resist :twisted: ) and substitue ring press HS work. That will necesitate me vastly improving my P-bar press strength as well. So that is where i will be for now and that is what will be in this log for my trainings. Thx Coach and everyone else for your advice and speedy responces!

[

Sounds like a good plan. As trainers we are sometimes so used to seeing people who just won't listen to sense that we almost expect it. This has been refreshing!

If you haven't seen it yet here is Coach Sommer's original post on the IC progression -

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1988#p12726

BlairBob posts a video a bit later to help clear up the 1/2 press sub-progression.

Yes, I hope no one thought I was saying that a floor or PB HS press was enough. I assumed, wrongly, that RyanC knew what I was referring to with the 1/2 press HS and Coach's IC prep list.

The press on the rings is a whole new ball game.

Ryan: Sorry about the omission, but I am glad Coach and Cole have contributed here as well. There's nothing better than getting Coach's personal input on this!

Sounds like you have a pretty decent mindset for your goals, I am looking forward to seeing your progress at each step along the way!

I had to figure out who this Naterman guy was lol. With the help of three moderators, two ex gymnasts, and Coach himself I am on the right path!

Recently i've had allergy issues and a cold. So I let my body rest the remainder of the week. Today I worked on floor presses and p bar presses.

Warmup

Pbar swings

2x5 pullups

2x5 Wide grip MU

20 minutes total HS training time

5 negative Pbar HS lowers

10 floor press HS..... Ended with 2x10 wrist pushups first knuckle and the open hand to fist version.

2x5

lost the ability to get on here on a regular basis. My training has been put on a week hold after i got sick and then had allergies. I didn't feel like doing much at all. I've been working on my pressing strength and static holds. I'll get back into the WOD's this upcoming week. and make sure i get back to posting whatever meager workout it do if i can't do the rxd wod

Back now! Wod's followed by normal training. I got my pressing strength back and am ready to jump back into full fledged training!

It's been a long time since i was able to really train! I had a nagging injury near my upper lat that put gymnastic training to a halt. I let it rest quite a while while doing rehab. Now i'm ready to get back. I'm debating whether to include my foundation training here. I think i will. Since that training and Iron Cross training will be going hand in hand. Right now i'm healthy and ready to take a long path to getting my Iron Cross. How will i get there and not take years and years? Slow but steady progressions. I know i need to get to a press on the rings to be able to start actually training the Cross. So my destination is there first. Where is my press now? I can do it on the floor but not as easy as i would like. That is where my focus will be for now. Get to where i am doing multiple Presses on the floor, move to P bars, and then move to the same progressions but on the rings. After that and learning a RIng HS i will begin to do focused Cross training.

So all this week i'll be working on my Pike flexibility. Floor Presses and Pbar HS lowers to planche. I'll be getting my Fondation in there as well.

This week went well. I took a break from my other training to completely focus on my gymnastic training. I retained much more flexibility than when i was doing my other workouts involving heavy weights.

I keep moving up through the FL progressions with ease. Every time i do a new FL workout i am moving up. I put a lot of work into my straight body strength prior to foundation so it's good to see it pay off. sPL is getting better. I had to take breaks from that due to injuries but i'm on tuck Planche and happy that i am progressing forward. Rope climb is just like FL in that i progress every workout to a new progression. My scar tissue in my leg and poor ankle flexibility keeps me on the first progression of SLS. I'm really attacking this tho to get the most out of the SLS. Things i need work on are the korean dips and the Manna. I just was able to do 2 Windshield wipers last week on the stall bars. I need to do something extreme with the HS progressions. My shoulders are very zombie like and will not open up. I'm gonna really be attacking them 3-5 times a week. My hamstring flexibility is getting better since starting PressHS progressions. I will follow these in addition to my other press work. Overall it was a good week and i look forward to another good week of solid work. Eventually i want to incorporate Rings1 into my workout. All in all my progress on my Iron Cross is good. I refuse to rush this and will put in as much work preparing my body as it needs.

Training is going good. Using a camera is really paying off to check my form. I don't really understand why but if i don't stretch my hamstrings 3 times a day i don't really make progress. They can go right back to terrible in no time flat. Going thru R1 is a good way to break the monotony of my sPL progress. It is by far the hardest thing. I'm staying with this training though. I'm starting to just begin to feel strong again.

Got my Press HS back to being easy. Now i'm gonna take it to the Pbars and get it back there. Since utilizing Foundation my pike and shoulder flexibility have massively improved. I'm no longer planching up my press. Well not as much. Also my shoulders can finally get pretty open while pressing up. I'm so happy i stumbled across BTGB. Without that i don't know if i would've ever found Coach Sommer. Even being in the gymnastic world there is much ignorance to this style of training. Being new to gymnastics and not having competed as a kid left me with a blank canvas. The only thing i could do was approach coaching from a strength first technique. Who knew it would be this effective? I stumbled onto the right course and then firmly knew it once i started reading the articles to round out my knowledge.

Once i get my PBar Press back. And by back i mean 5 Lsit press in a row then i will begin ring pressups.