Getting lean whilst increasing strength

Joshua Naterman said:

FutureisNow said:

Excellent ... I haven't tried running a constant small surplus yet, except for a few days a week. It may be my next approach.

Though I am far from having all the conditions for it to work ideally, I'm willing to give it a go.

Typically we have a medium breakfast, a small lunch and a large dinner, and snacks. Ideally they'd all be medium.

Cutting down the dinner size is the hardest part. It's also hard to balance calories within a few hundred

eating a varied, largely unmeasured diet. It's all ball park estimates, unlike when you're eating a identical

meals of known composition and quantity.

Also, lately I am doing substantial endurance and strength training (gymnastic and weight), and tennis (about 5 days a week) so don't want to run a deficit, no. If I did a deficit I'd just do limited strength training to create stimulus to avoid loss (hopefully), and mild low intensity cardio if any.

Agree it's better to not over-analyse, though yes I'd be curious in how that 20:1 ratio comes about, if you can' find out.

There is a lot going on in this body of ours of course, and isolating processes can be misleading I do agree.

Thanks much

Yea, I know how real life is lol! I'd say the single most important thing to do is make sure those snacks have complete proteins and carbs, and aside from that make sure you eat enough to make up for that training once you're done! You have 800 calories, at max, for one meal and the working out can create a huge deficit in a hurry.

Benardot has a service called nutritiming. http://nutritiming.com/

Check that, it's cheap and will help you figure all this out with much less headache. No, I'm not on commission lol!

It specifically references artistic and rhythmic gymnasts.

As for references, enjoy this one: http://nutritiming.com/docs/Energy_Deficits_and_Body_Comp_MSSE.pdf

Took a quick look at his site ... will be back for more later. Gotta get car fixed, ugh. Real life again

It seems like a common sense approach for active people. The bodybuilder approach to muscle gain/fat loss is kind of restrictive on activities. Will see if could be for me...

Thanks J

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The tracking application is interesting ... takes recording a step further than most food logs. It requires remembering the hour of the food intake and activity, which isn't a huge leap. Generally I use food logging ocassionally. Are you using the application?

I've seen the bodyfat study referenced before in the textbook and the online book, and wondered if it had corrected

for gender, and see they were all female! It's a cool study. One assumption is that 15 and 16 year olds can

self report intake as well as 29 year olds, and I'm not sure of that but they are meticulous people as olympic athletes

and not your typical kids. I'm also not sure that there are any differences in bodyfat due to the age group difference, and do what extent the nature of the exercise affects its storage, however

it's interesting that it correlates to the size of the daily deficit or surplus.

Is it the key correlate? Perhaps it is but I'd have to understand more about that.... I've generally considered that fat stored during a surplus would be used eventually during a deficit time, assuming caloric balance for the day. But I can see how lean mass loss is a concern - though I believe glycerol from liberated adipose tissue can also be used to produce glucose.

In the meantime have no problem working with the hypothesis as I love snacking and munching, lol. Shall keep mental tabs

on my status for now, and see how that goes!

Talked to Benardot. He gave a more detailed version of the same answer I gave you. The extra carbs are about what is necessary to support the extra tissue. Muscle mass is a hungry beast.

Everything from age related hormonal balance to stress to non-age related hormonal balance to individual genetics to necessary cofactors for transamination (B6)and other protein metabolism to getting enough calories at the right times can and does alter the rate of protein synthesis, but in an athlete who is fully post-pubescent (after the mid 20-s for sure) you won't see much more than 3 lbs of dry protein being incorporated into a drug-free body in one year. Keep in mind that protein is about 20% of the weight, so that means there is another 12 lbs of water and glycogen(and some triglycerides) making a total of about 15 lbs in a truly incredible training year.

If you listen to drug free bodybuilders they will tell you that they are thrilled when they make a 10 lb fat-free mass gain in one year.

If that doesn't sound like a lot, go buy 12-15 lbs of 92% lean beef and see how much space that takes up... Gaining that much muscle would completely transform your physique.

The primary factor, aside from getting enough protein and spreading it out across the day, is simply consistently getting enough calories throughout the day to support a gain in fat-free mass.

Joshua Naterman said:

The primary factor, aside from getting enough protein and spreading it out across the day, is simply consistently getting enough calories throughout the day to support a gain in fat-free mass.

Put that statement at the top of anything regarding muscle gain. Gotta have fuel before the body will build. Fuel to build with, fuel to prevent protein from being used elsewhere, etc. Great thread guys.

Joshua Naterman said:

Talked to Benardot. He gave a more detailed version of the same answer I gave you. The extra carbs are about what is necessary to support the extra tissue. Muscle mass is a hungry beast.

Everything from age related hormonal balance to stress to non-age related hormonal balance to individual genetics to necessary cofactors for transamination (B6)and other protein metabolism to getting enough calories at the right times can and does alter the rate of protein synthesis, but in an athlete who is fully post-pubescent (after the mid 20-s for sure) you won't see much more than 3 lbs of dry protein being incorporated into a drug-free body in one year. Keep in mind that protein is about 20% of the weight, so that means there is another 12 lbs of water and glycogen(and some triglycerides) making a total of about 15 lbs in a truly incredible training year.

If you listen to drug free bodybuilders they will tell you that they are thrilled when they make a 10 lb fat-free mass gain in one year.

If that doesn't sound like a lot, go buy 12-15 lbs of 92% lean beef and see how much space that takes up... Gaining that much muscle would completely transform your physique.

The primary factor, aside from getting enough protein and spreading it out across the day, is simply consistently getting enough calories throughout the day to support a gain in fat-free mass.

Thanks for going out of your way to ask him Josh. That was extra kind of you.

I will certainly keep up the calories and carbs in particular while training. Too many is better than too few I gather.

Can always ratchet down if fat seems to be coming on excessively. I've never measured and all that crud however

am getting a caliper to stay on top of it. Calipers does seem to under-report bodyfat a few % compared to dexa, but dexa

also includes the intermusclar and organ fat which calipers don't appear to, and don't matter as much in terms of appearance perhaps.

Anyway will give it a go ... training hard is certainly the #1 priority though nutritional support is a close second, I'd imagine.

If one was using the nutritiming program, how is the required "extra" hourly protien intake calculated? Should I follow the nutritiming program, then additionaly take in 1.5g protien/waking hours?

Protein has 4 calories per gram. even at 10g per hour that's only 40 calories per hour. You will have to figure out how many calories per hour of protein you have to add to the gap using the numbers of hours.

The best thing to do is to make a "custom food" on the main menu and label it hourly protein. That will be your mix, and you can put it in for each hour. That will let you see how it affects your surpluses and deficits.

Remember, No one expects you to use the app every day forever. It is to let you see the patterns in your days and learn how to fix any problems you may see in the patterns. After you learn your patterns, you won't need the app or subscription again until your schedule changes for whatever reason.

You'll learn what you need to do in every day life to the point where you just know what to eat and when, and how to adjust.

Once you do that you probably won't use the program regularly until you have to plan a hiking or biking trip, and then you can use the program to show you how much food you will really need.

Joshua Naterman said:

Remember to spread out the protein. You don't have a protein reserve tank so for optimal results you literally want 10g every hour, on the hour. Eating 20g of meat with some whole milk every 2-3 hours is also reasonable and should give a favorable whole-food approach if you prefer that. The type of meat doesn't matter, but if you're eating fatty beef you can skip the milk.

so you can also eat every hour 10-20gr (depends on your bodyweight) beef jerky with some veggies and you still get leaner but pack on some muscle mass?

itisme said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Remember to spread out the protein. You don't have a protein reserve tank so for optimal results you literally want 10g every hour, on the hour. Eating 20g of meat with some whole milk every 2-3 hours is also reasonable and should give a favorable whole-food approach if you prefer that. The type of meat doesn't matter, but if you're eating fatty beef you can skip the milk.

so you can also eat every hour 10-20gr (depends on your bodyweight) beef jerky with some veggies and you still get leaner but pack on some muscle mass?

Not sure about beef jerky, that is dry heat and dry heat tends to be bad for protein digestibility.

Jerky tends to be very low quality. Better then nothing but not a first choice.

Joshua Naterman said:

itisme said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Remember to spread out the protein. You don't have a protein reserve tank so for optimal results you literally want 10g every hour, on the hour. Eating 20g of meat with some whole milk every 2-3 hours is also reasonable and should give a favorable whole-food approach if you prefer that. The type of meat doesn't matter, but if you're eating fatty beef you can skip the milk.

so you can also eat every hour 10-20gr (depends on your bodyweight) beef jerky with some veggies and you still get leaner but pack on some muscle mass?

Not sure about beef jerky, that is dry heat and dry heat tends to be bad for protein digestibility.

I guess that means you don't want to try some delicious reindeer jerky when you come?

Reindeer Jerky....never even heard of that. Had the usually and things like Elk, Bear, Gator....but Reindeer.....hmmm

Josh,

I purchased nutritiming yesterday and realized that I was literally in a huge deficit everyday. So, once I got it set up I ate literally every hour trying stay with in the -400 cal zone and finished the day with -211. It was extremely tough because my diet is very lean and low calorie (through the week). All I ate was veggies, 1 peice of fruit during breakfast, chicken, tuna, sweet potatos, and some brown rice. Because most of the calories are in the meat I had an un-godly amount of protein (about 418 g), carbs 233 g, fat 55 g, total cal= 3153. I know you have been hounded about this lately but I have a couple of quick questions if you have time.

1. How do you accomplish this calorie goal if you are eating good lean food without going over 160 g of protein!? That seems impossible, unless your secret is 100% in the buckwheat?? Protein bars?? Liquid Meal replacements?

2. During a workout, is it ok to drop below the -400 cal as long as you strive to replace burned calories asap? I went for a 7 mile run yesterday and it dropped me way down even with pre-WO nutrition. I got back up to the safe range afterwards, but I can't figure out how to do that any more optimally.

3. Is maintaining the +/- 400 cal range important through sleep? I wake up around -600 cal, I had to eat a fairly fatty protein bar to catch up...

Thanks alot in advance!

I am in NO way Josh, but I've been thinking about the same thing.

Remember, if you eat a lot of vegetables, NutriTiming will count the protein from it towards your total - even though it's poor quality, so I guess you'd leave out most of the vegetable protein, and mainly focus on that from animal (and here, BV isn't 100% either, unless it's eggs or whey).

About the sleep, Josh actually wrote that somewhere. Either you make up for it prior to sleep, or when you get up. You've been in a deficit all day, so going to a surplus for an hour or so won't do much damage to fat loss.

About the calories, ratios should be about 55-65% carbs, 15-20% protein, 20-30% fat -ish, if I'm not mistaking.

Guys,

In regards to the amount of protien that can be utilised in a set time period, how does the time required for meat to digest relate?

If my body can only "use" 10g of protien each hour, and I eat a eight ounce steak, how long does my body take to digest that meat and how does that correlate to the amount of protien needed each hour?

Josh advised against consuming more than 30g protein per meal. It will get absorbed, but not used as protein; just converted to carbs and fat.

151 said:

Guys,

In regards to the amount of protien that can be utilised in a set time period, how does the time required for meat to digest relate?

If my body can only "use" 10g of protien each hour, and I eat a eight ounce steak, how long does my body take to digest that meat and how does that correlate to the amount of protien needed each hour?

That varies from person to person, but what you have to realize is that the larger the portion in the beginning, the larger the initial spike of amino acids becomes and it ends up tapering off. Beef absorbs much more slowly than whey but usually not for more than four hours. Obviously if there is enough fiber and fat along with it that time gets extended, but you are also limiting how much gets absorbed as well (due to some of the food being sort of encapsulated in the fiber). You end up guaranteeing maximal protein utilization by breaking those meals into smaller portions and consuming them more often.

One 8oz steak is usually not as good as two 4oz steaks for this reason.

It is important to understand that this is much more true for athletes than for sedentary people. Sedentary people just have such a small amount of protein turnover that it is much harder for sedentary people to get less than they need, and hormonal responses are substantially different in an athlete (someone who works out hard 3+ times per week) than in someone whose exercise consists of walking downstairs to the garage and walking up the entrance stairs to the elevator at work.

There is some evidence that people who are couch potatoes are somewhat better off with 3 meals a day, but there is a much larger pile of evidence that you shouldn't be a couch potato, so anyone using those studies to argue for 3 meals per day is a buffoon and should be corrected politely. We should be moderately to extremely active 5-7 days per week, that's what we are built to do and that is what our bodies respond best to, both in performance and health.

Ok, that got OT. Sorry.

You can eat that 8 oz steak, just know that it will do more for you if you have two meals with 4 oz each and 2-3 hours between the meals.

Joshua Naterman said:

itisme said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Remember to spread out the protein. You don't have a protein reserve tank so for optimal results you literally want 10g every hour, on the hour. Eating 20g of meat with some whole milk every 2-3 hours is also reasonable and should give a favorable whole-food approach if you prefer that. The type of meat doesn't matter, but if you're eating fatty beef you can skip the milk.

so you can also eat every hour 10-20gr (depends on your bodyweight) beef jerky with some veggies and you still get leaner but pack on some muscle mass?

Not sure about beef jerky, that is dry heat and dry heat tends to be bad for protein digestibility.

oh, i thought beef jerky is slowly dried without more than 40°C heat...

and whey is a fast protein right?

so do i want fast protein in small amounts every hour or do i want slowly protein in larger amounts every 3 hours, is there any difference?

also should one consume veggies/small amounts of carbs with every protein or is it enough to just eat the "used" carbs spread throughout the day?

i really dont know anything about dieting its horrible, because who dont want to get bigger, leaner and stronger at the same time...

itisme said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Not sure about beef jerky, that is dry heat and dry heat tends to be bad for protein digestibility.

oh, i thought beef jerky is slowly dried without more than 40°C heat...

and whey is a fast protein right?

so do i want fast protein in small amounts every hour or do i want slowly protein in larger amounts every 3 hours, is there any difference?

also should one consume veggies/small amounts of carbs with every protein or is it enough to just eat the "used" carbs spread throughout the day?

i really dont know anything about dieting its horrible, because who dont want to get bigger, leaner and stronger at the same time...

Whey is fast, yes.

Either way is good, there is an advantage to the whey every hour but it is not necessary. It is better to do what works with your schedule! If that means meals every 3-4 hours then that's fine. If it's 4 hours make sure you have a small snack at the 2 hour mark, preferably 10-15g of protein and 200 other calories (more or less of your choice, this is usually taken care of by eating half a protein bar and maybe a piece of fruit + a small handful of nuts, a little more than 1/8 cup nuts.

Example snack.

Busy snack for me is Whey in water or almond milk. Then tablespoon of mixed nuts and plum amazins. Quick and packs easy.

thank you guys.

so which protein do you guys recommend for some selfmade protein-bars, to consume every 2-3 hours with fruit/veggies and nuts?.....(that should be optimal if i got it right isnt it?)

I think it would probably be some kind of casein... There's a website called TrueNutrition.com that sells very good protein powder for great prices. It mixes very well.

If you need to eat protein constantly how do you explain the success of the leangains method?

Learn your body and use what works. Humans as an organism adapt extremely well. Many things work, some methods are more optimal then others for each of us.

There's no one best, correct way.

Also, keep in mind that many of the client testimonials on his site are from training/eating LG style after many weeks. Most are 12 or more, some are up to a year, some more. Yes, the results are good in the end, but could the results be better and achieved quicker? Could they be achieved easier? The end result is important, but it's not the only important thing. 8)

From the research I've read, they've done studies where they have a constant infusion of amino acids and after a short period of time it doesn't stimulate protein synthesis any longer. This seems similar to what you guys are trying to achieve with frequent consumption of slow digesting protein.

Seems to me that the research indicates larger protein pulses are more beneficial.

But maybe that's not happening exactly with what you're doing, or it is and I'm reading the research wrong.