Getting lean whilst increasing strength

Bissen said:

So... would the pre-drink alone be ~20g whey+40-60g carbs alone, with a peri-workout drink of same amount+ratio, or should I just start sipping my peri-drink 15min pre workout? (Less for me, I assume? 5ft6, ~135lbs, female)

I seem to often feel drowsy/not in gear during most of my workout :?

Depends on when you work out, I mean if you're hitting the gym at 4 am you might want to mix the protein with some tea or coffee Caffeine source) and milk (actually really tasty with chocolate protein, don't know about other flavors) as suggested. I mean the suggested caffeine. I just like milk, personally.

Anyhow, I would only use this as an immediately pre and intra-workout mix. I will suggest solid food if you can get it, but if you have literally JUST woken up or something and can't do solid food first then you should probably sip 20-30g of glucose worth and then have a full shake for your workout.

Also, over the course of a few weeks you will get used to having more food in you while you work out. You just have to slowly introduce it so that you don't feel sick or anything. You'll notice that each workout you feel a bit better with the food and eventually you can add more. You need the energy.

I have found that lack of energy means 1 or more of three (sort of four) things: Not enough carbs in the day so far, not enough water and salt, or not enough sleep.

Does any of that sound familiar?

As was mentioned, you don't necessarily have to finish the drink, you will learn to know what you need on any particular day. In general, a little too much is better than not quite enough.

I'm definitely not a first-thing-in-the-morning-workout'er. I pretty much always train around afternoon. Also, I actually don't feel sick with food in my stomach; rather, I feel bad without it.

About the drowsiness - yeah... I think it's dehydration I really tend to underestimate the power of hydration!

If I eat about an hour pre workout (meal will be small; 200kcal, C:P:F = 60:20:20-ish), should I then still have a pre- + intra- + post workout drink? And would there be a guideline to amounts? I.e., should intra be smaller if I have a pre-drink, and should post be smaller if I have an intra drink?

Maybe I'm over thinking things...

If I'm maintaining a +-400cal energy balance each day, is it still a good idea to fast about 1 day / week? Sorry if this has been addressed. I'm still trying to wrap around the concept.

Bissen said:

I'm definitely not a first-thing-in-the-morning-workout'er. I pretty much always train around afternoon. Also, I actually don't feel sick with food in my stomach; rather, I feel bad without it.

About the drowsiness - yeah... I think it's dehydration I really tend to underestimate the power of hydration!

If I eat about an hour pre workout (meal will be small; 200kcal, C:P:F = 60:20:20-ish), should I then still have a pre- + intra- + post workout drink? And would there be a guideline to amounts? I.e., should intra be smaller if I have a pre-drink, and should post be smaller if I have an intra drink?

Maybe I'm over thinking things...

Don't over-think, you are definitely going that route

Eat whatever makes you feel good pre-workout, and I would simply make sure that your pre-workout drink + post-workout drink comes close to supplying the total calories you burn in your workout time slot. For example, if you were burning 8 METs (a typical number for calisthenics) for 30 minutes you could take your resting metabolism and multiply by 4, and that's how many calories you burned during that time. For me, that would be 532 kcal or so for a WOD-style workout. That would break down to a pre-workout drink of maybe 150 kcal (perhaps 15g protein for 60 kcal and 22-23 grams of carbs) and then a workout drink of another 15-20g of protein for up to 80 kcal and then 300 kcal from carbs, which is about 75g of carbs. Since that's a bit high for 1L of liquid I'd probably do 15g of protein and 45g of carbs, taking in the remaining 30g of carbs immediately PWO. When you're 135 you'd need something of that exact mix (15g protein and 45g carbs in a 1L solution with water) to cover all of your caloric needs for the workout without slowing down absorption. No need for that extra carb chug after the workout. Your post-workout meals would just be to maintain energy balance. Assuming a 4 hour EPOC payback, which is probably not terribly far off for a dynamic WOD or anything of a similar pacing, you could add something like 23-30 kcal per hour of slow-absorbing energy (maybe 3g of fats) extra for 4 hours to cover that energy requirement.

Being bigger requires more creative energy consumption in order to get the energy without slowing down delivery That pretty much includes bigger pre-workout meals with slower-digesting foods like buckwheat.

Aha! Well, I think I'm just about down with this whole NutriTiming-thing and meal-planning! Thanks a lot, Joshua.

You're welcome!

Okay, so I found another question

I'm looking at MET-tables, and they seem to vary. Some go up to 8, some to 16. I do o-lifting and GB WODs, but they usually seem to have a MET-value of 4.5 or so, yet you say 8? Is that on the 16-MET scale?

I have a question. Meat digests at 4-5 grams per hour if I remember correctly but that protein doesn't actually start to get used for an hour after eating. I get 10g whey plus 10g or so meat for 3 hours of protein intake. Is that okay with the meat?

Do eggs also have a 1 hour "delay"? I don't know the technical term. :wink:

Patrick Smith said:

I have a question. Meat digests at 4-5 grams per hour if I remember correctly but that protein doesn't actually start to get used for an hour after eating. I get 10g whey plus 10g or so meat for 3 hours of protein intake. Is that okay with the meat?

Do eggs also have a 1 hour "delay"? I don't know the technical term. :wink:

Depends on the fat content of the meat, lower fat = faster digestion. Pork loin is like 10.7g per hour, but it's crappy protein. Anything under 10% fat is going in similarly fast.

Bissen said:

Okay, so I found another question

I'm looking at MET-tables, and they seem to vary. Some go up to 8, some to 16. I do o-lifting and GB WODs, but they usually seem to have a MET-value of 4.5 or so, yet you say 8? Is that on the 16-MET scale?

To give you an idea, running at 7 mph is about 11.5 METs and playing American Football is 9-10 METs or so. The football, even though the activity is much more intense, has lots of rest which is why the MET level is lower. The actual activity portion (not including rests) is quite a bit higher!

WOD-style workouts are going to be somewhere from 9-12 METs, maybe higher. Very hard to estimate closer than that.

While we are using gymnastic strength elements to condition our bodies, the structure of the workouts is the same as circuit training or calisthenic workouts. We are working much more than we are resting, which is not the case with full on gymnastics training. I've watched the tumbling practice, for example, and each tumbling run only lasts for a few seconds. After that it takes 20-30 seconds before the next run by the same person, at the very least. That's super high intensity, maybe 17-20 METs, for maybe 4 seconds followed by something like 1.5-2 METs for 20-30s, which would definitely give a 4.11 METs average rating for the 30s rest period. That comes from (4 sec/34 sec = 11.76% of total time) times 20 METs to give the percentile of METs due to the actual tumbling, a total of 2.35 METs for the 34 second period. The other 30 seconds are (30/34 = 88.24%) times 2 METs, for 1.76 METs. Together, 1.76+2.35= 4.11 METs or so.

The 20s rest period version would be 3.33 METs (4/24 = 16.67 * 20) for the tumbling portion of the 24 total seconds and 1.67 METs for the 20s resting portion (20/24 = 83.33% * 2) of the 24 second period. That gives a total of 5 METs, which is what would be used for the average hourly expenditure. That is the nature of skill practice, and is why Olympic lifting is similarly rated. The momentary energy expenditure is enormous, with short sets and long rests. Track and field practice would also be similarly rated, I think, while Wrestling would be much higher because of the much shorter relative amount of rest.

Does that make sense?

For example, with the WODs we are working at extremely high levels and usually only resting for short periods of time. That's going to keep us between 8 and 10 METs most of the time, but if you consider that most WODs are lasting 30 minutes then that would be 4-5 METs per hour, same as gymnastics training.

Joshua Naterman said:

To give you an idea, running at 7 mph is about 11.5 METs and playing American Football is 9-10 METs or so. The football, even though the activity is much more intense, has lots of rest which is why the MET level is lower. The actual activity portion (not including rests) is quite a bit higher!

WOD-style workouts are going to be somewhere from 9-12 METs, maybe higher. Very hard to estimate closer than that.

While we are using gymnastic strength elements to condition our bodies, the structure of the workouts is the same as circuit training or calisthenic workouts. We are working much more than we are resting, which is not the case with full on gymnastics training. I've watched the tumbling practice, for example, and each tumbling run only lasts for a few seconds. After that it takes 20-30 seconds before the next run by the same person, at the very least. That's super high intensity, maybe 17-20 METs, for maybe 4 seconds followed by something like 1.5-2 METs for 20-30s, which would definitely give a 4.11 METs average rating for the 30s rest period. That comes from (4 sec/34 sec = 11.76% of total time) times 20 METs to give the percentile of METs due to the actual tumbling, a total of 2.35 METs for the 34 second period. The other 30 seconds are (30/34 = 88.24%) times 2 METs, for 1.76 METs. Together, 1.76+2.35= 4.11 METs or so.

The 20s rest period version would be 3.33 METs (4/24 = 16.67 * 20) for the tumbling portion of the 24 total seconds and 1.67 METs for the 20s resting portion (20/24 = 83.33% * 2) of the 24 second period. That gives a total of 5 METs, which is what would be used for the average hourly expenditure. That is the nature of skill practice, and is why Olympic lifting is similarly rated. The momentary energy expenditure is enormous, with short sets and long rests. Track and field practice would also be similarly rated, I think, while Wrestling would be much higher because of the much shorter relative amount of rest.

Does that make sense?

For example, with the WODs we are working at extremely high levels and usually only resting for short periods of time. That's going to keep us between 8 and 10 METs most of the time, but if you consider that most WODs are lasting 30 minutes then that would be 4-5 METs per hour, same as gymnastics training.

That actually makes a ton of sense. I think I'm beginning to understand this.

Totally makes sense.

So when I put my o-lifting/WODs into NutriTiming, I can either: 1) time the actual work time (which is kind of a hassle and not very precise anyways), excluding the resting periods, and put it in at what factor? 6-7?

Or, 2) include the resting periods and rate it 4-ish on the activity scale?

I would use the known MET levels, multiply by your base metabolism, and then mess with Nutritiming to see what you need. For example, if you're lifting for 45 minutes and you're going to say a 5 MET level, that's 5x RMR times 45/60 (which is .75). That's your total calories, plus .25 (15/60) times RMR for the rest of the hour's normal caloric expenditure, and then see what that is. Then put the activity time into Nutritiming and start with that 4-ish level, see what it tells you, and adjust the nutritiming effort levels accordingly so that you have a better idea of what it is looking for.

Cool. I'll tinker with it and see what it works out to

Wish I had a better answer for you Bissen!

Don't be - unless it's because you want to be omniscient on it because you're a perfectionist

I'm just grateful you share your knowledge