My routine

Hey,

I have composed a routine around improving my gymnastics ability in general and building my strength and power for gymnastics moves and holds such as planche.

I normally do this routine on Monday, Wednesday and Saturday so to have adequate rest.

Firstly, I jog for around 5-10 mins to get the blood flowing.

I then I work on static stretches but I'm not sure whether I should be doing this before the exercises.

I will then work on holds such as planches, handstand, L sit etc in sets but not going to failure.

I rest and then:

(Please bare in mind that these are push exercises but I need help on pull exercises and how often to do them etc)

(Sets:Reps)

MAINLY PUSH (A)

UPPER:

Handstand push ups 4X4

Pseudo push ups (weighted) 5X5

Dips (weighted) 5X5

CORE:

Leg raises on chin up bar 3X5

V sits 3X5

LEGS:

Assisted pistols each leg 4X5

3X100m sprints

MAINLY PULL (B)

UPPER:

Pull-ups (weighted) 5X4 wide or narrow

Rows (weighted) 5X4

CORE:

Leg raises on chin up bar 3X5

V sits 3X5

Hyper extensions 3X5

LEGS:

Assisted pistols each leg 4X5

3X100m sprints

Sun: A

Mon: B

Tue: Rest

Wed: A and B

Thurs: A and B

Fri: rest

Sat: rest

I know it's probably a bit too upper heavy but if I get a barbell hopefully i can include dead lifts etc. But does it sound ok so far for a gymnastics workout/ conditioning routine?

Thank you

Hey, I just wanna stop by and say hi. I'm totally new to gymnastics so I can't give you advices, but your routine looks pretty cool to me. You're a lot stronger than me

One aspect of your routine I suggest altering is the manner in which you stretch. Doing passive stretches before a workout is a bad idea, as they actually weaken you afterwards. Your warmup should generally consist of a series of basic dipping and twisting movements, just to limber you up a tad, followed by a short bit of cardio to get the blood flowing, and then finish it up with dynamic stretches. Save the passive stretches for the cooldown period after your workout.

I'm a martial artist; not a gymnast, by trade, so the upper body to lower body ratio of your workout could be fine for all I know, so I wont comment on that. From what I know about the sport, gymnasts rely more on their arms then their legs, so putting more emphasis on upper body drills that lower body drills is probably ideal. One rule I use when designing my own workouts is for every muscle system I work (i.e- upper body horizontal push drills like pushups) I try to add another drill for the opposite system (in this case, the upper body pulling muscles). It's also good to work both the horizontal and vertical pushing muscles fairly evenly, to avoid imbalances in strength. For some pulling exercises I would suggest basics such as weighted pullups, and the front lever progressions. It'd be wise to ask someone with more insight into the actual sport of gymnastics, as they'll no doubt know many more exercises than me with more relevance to the sport itself.

Your core work looks fine for the most part. One thing I would suggest is going out and purchasing one of those old fashioned ab wheels. They're extremely inexpensive, and from my experience provide an amazing core workout. As an additional benefit they can be easily altered for more difficult exercises once you've mastered the basics as well. If you perform the front lever hold, or any of its variations, in the way Coach Sommer suggests, that is in itself a fairly taxing core workout. Hanging leg raises and holds plus ab wheel exercises are my personal favorite core drills.

As for your leg workout, what is a 'weighted bodyweight squat'? The name sounds a bit controdictionary. Persuming that you're refering to the classic back squat, I personally would get rid of it. If I were you, I would concentrate more on unilateral leg strength, as strength gained from one-legged strength drills always translates over to two-legged drills, but the opposite is not true. Pistols are definately a great exercise, as early on they work your stability and balance along with your leg strength, and they can be used in progression just like the planche and front lever holds. Start off with just normal pistols, and then move on to more advanced variations such as jumping and weighted pistols, eventually doing weighted jumping pistols. It's also advisable to strengthen your ankles for all the stressful landings from flips and the like. shin and calf raises are good bets. Also doing wall sits to strengthen your quags and glutes isometrically is another one of my suggestions that I think would probably be beneficial for a gymnast to employ.

Wow I turned this into a bit of a rant. Sorry, got a bit too caught up. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll try my best to respond with information relevant to your sport.

-A-

Gymrob,

On reviewing your workout, the first thing that struck me was the enormous pressing volume in a single workout. My preference would be for you to take those same pressing exercises and spread them over three separate workouts; handstand pushups on one day, planche pushups on another and dips on still another.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

PLEASE READ MY ORIGINAL ROUTINE I HAVE EDITED IT. THANK YOU

Hey coach and others many thanks for the reply. What I was considering doing was to keep that workout but also have have a pull routine and follow them like this throughout the week:

Sun: Push A

Mon: Pull B

Tue: Rest

Wed: Push and pull A and B

Thurs: Push and pull A and B

Fri: rest

Sat: rest

And I think I will try the grease the grove method of aquiring skills I find hard like tuck planche push ups (on my push up bars) for 5 days and then 2 days rest and after 2 weeks, assess my progress. A lot of my exercises apart from HSPU's, pistols and a few others a weighted and low reps in order to develop strength and power.

Does this sound like a good idea?

Thank you

What exactly are your goals with this routine?

I would like to develop A LOT of strength and power that is very useful to mainly gymnastics skills and holds such as planches, press to handstand, somersaults etc. I want maximum strength and power for the ratio against my bodyweight. So basically maximum strength and power for minimum size/weight.

Thanks

Your routine looks fairly interesting. Four day a week workouts are pretty intense, so be sure to constantly evaluate your progress to be sure you aren't overworking yourself. Assuming you're a gymnast, you should remember that not only will you be performing this workout, you'll also be attending your gymnastics classes which are no doubt also physically taxing. Also, remember that power is basically the most force you can generate in the least amount of time. So to improve your power, you really just need to worry about increasing your strength level. The speed aspect of power will come simply by practicing your skills in class. Out of curiosity, what gymnastics events do you intend to specialize in?

Here is my opinion of your routine:

A. I do not like the push-pull split. It is simply not as efficient as combining antagonistic work - back to back.

The advantages of antagonistic pairing:

1. Time efficiency - rest less time, simply half your rest interval.

2. By pairing antagonists you are making sure you are balancing your musclar system.

3. Recruit more motor units in each movement.

B. Performing A+B routines is too much volume for someone without the work capacity of a mutant. It will result in frustration and failure.

C. Dont tell anyone, since everybody digs them nowdays, but I dont like the pseudo planche push ups. It is too easy to cheat and the tension varies too much. I would use the tuck planche push ups like Coach Sommer advices.

D. Working the sprints as part of your leg workout is a mistake, I think. For sure, dont perform it after the pistols. You dont want to be trying to run at full speed with a fatigued lower body. I would rather see somthing like the 'Harop Curl' paired against the pistols. No need for a barbel or special equipment, just slide your legs under something heavy like your bed, and increase your ROM as you advance. Keep the sprints for a diffrent workout and perform 5-10 reps of 100Meters with 3 minutes of rest in between.

Thank you very much Ido Portal. This may seem a little silly but how would I set out antagonstic pairs in a week inside of push pull etc. Could you please give me a good example.

Thanks for taking the time. Much appreciated!

Very simple:

A1 HSPU 5X5

A2 Pull Ups 5X5

B1 Tucked Planche Push ups 5X5

B2 Tucked F-Lever Pull ups 5X5

etc....

Perform A1, rest 01:40 sec and go to A2, rest 01:40 sec and back to A1 until

you complete the 5 sets, then go to B1 and do the same...

Pair antagonistic movement patterns one back to back with the other.

Ido Portal thank you. Is this suitable for strength and power for gymnastics? Also, should I do this for push and pull? Do I combine push and pull in the same worlout? How many days a week should I perform this? Also, why 1:40 rest? Between sets is like 3-5 mins suitable for strength training?

Thanks

No problem, man.

You can just call me Ido, no need for my full name...

Yes, this is suitable for strength development, just keep the rep range low and the tension high and you are ok.

This is a combined push-pull of course, as in the example I provided. this is the main idea with antagonistic movements.

The 01:40 min rest comes from the data provided by trainer-extraordiner Charles Poliquin.

How many times a week you perform this depends on your current work capacity, but a good start is once every 5 days.

The 1:40 rest period confuses me as well. Did whomever you got that information from explain the logic behind it? I'm curious as I too was under the influence that the generally agreed upon rest period for strength training was 2-5 minutes to allow for recovery in the muscular and nervous systems

I do not like the structure of A1/A2, B1/B2, etc. for a couple reasons namely:

1. Supersets will NOT build maximal strength and power which gymrob said was his goal.

2. Decreasing rest times will delve more into endurance and conditioning rather than strength. Proper rest time for strength is 3-5 minutes possibly going up to 7 minutes.

3. Switching off pushing to pulling movements and vice versa decrease the workload on a given 'chains' of muscles at a time. For example, decreasing the work on the 'pushing' chain (which includes anterior delts, chest, triceps, etc.) will lean to overall slightly decreased gains due to the aforementioned less stress on a muscle and thus less power generated on the muscle groups during the workout.

Poliquin's advice, especially the stuff on t-nation, is not geared for primarily strength, power and performance rather aesthetics.

B. Performing A+B routines is too much volume for someone without the work capacity of a mutant. It will result in frustration and failure.

Not true. 3 full days of rest with A,B,rest,AB,AB,rest,rest should be more than enough. However, if it is too much, you just have to drop an A or a B here or there to allow full recovery without significant overreaching.

C. Dont tell anyone, since everybody digs them nowdays, but I dont like the pseudo planche push ups. It is too easy to cheat and the tension varies too much. I would use the tuck planche push ups like Coach Sommer advices.

Pseudos are good if you have someone constantly telling you to keep your core tight. Again, these are dependent on form so they can be good or bad.

The problem with tuck planche pushups is that most people sag their butts and it ends up like leaned forward dips, so these have form issues as well.

D. Working the sprints as part of your leg workout is a mistake, I think. For sure, dont perform it after the pistols. You dont want to be trying to run at full speed with a fatigued lower body. I would rather see somthing like the 'Harop Curl' paired against the pistols. No need for a barbel or special equipment, just slide your legs under something heavy like your bed, and increase your ROM as you advance. Keep the sprints for a diffrent workout and perform 5-10 reps of 100Meters with 3 minutes of rest in between.

Disagreed.

How hard would it be to do pistols after sprints?

Unless the person's goal is specifically geared towards sprinting faster you generally put any HIIT, tabata or metabolic conditioning work AFTER strength because recovery is very poor after these sorts of workouts to allow any good volume of work with strength right after.

Glute ham raises are a good alternative.. but sprints are very good for posterior chain development and coupling them with pistols is strong.

Anyway, I like full body better and gymrob had me initially confused with his push/pull but we got past that and designed a better one.

I see I have a serial critic...

I will respond to the information provided by braindx:

1. You clearly dont have an understanding of Supersets. What you mean in superset is two subsequent sets with no rest in between. The superset used here is with a rest period between sets. If that is not effective, than you should end every workout you do after the first exercise, because when you are transitioning to the second exercise, you are performing a 'superset'.

Also, even the no-rest kind of supersets are usefull sometimes in strength and power situations, in the right context of proper rep range, rest intervals, etc and by knocking more fast twitch motor units out of the pool.

When making a blunt claim like this, you will have to back it up with research.

2.There are five causes of fatigue in intense exercise:

A. Accumulation of fatigue substrates.

B. Depletion of energy substrates.

C. Changes in physio-chemical state. (lowered blood pH)

D. Disturbed coordination of movement.

E. Lowering of neural conduction.

The research showing, as you have noted, that 3-4 minutes of rest are appropriate when working with maximal loads has been done by Weiss-1991, and some research have shown even higher numbers - 5 minutes of rest and more, like you have noted - Schmidtbleicher -1986 and Zatiorsky-1995. Have you actualy read this research and fully comprehended it or are you just providing us with an uneducated opinion that comes from some overheard concepts?

I've done my homework and these are my conclusions, backed up by training hundereds of clients over the last 8 years:

Pairing antagonists will allow you to achieve full motor unit activation.

It allows you to double the workload per training unit.

Pairing antagonists have been shown repeatedly, in my training facility to lower drop-off curves more effectivly than traditional standard sets with complete rest interval.

Also, your bash of superset goes beyond the debate between straight sets and supersets. If what you have said is correct, other forms of advanced and simple training are also useless for maximal strength development - Circuit training (a form of supersets) for example.

The use of Supersets in training was popularized way before coach Poliquin (who works with athletes for a living, another mistake) and it is used by famous authors in the strength and conditioning field such as Charles Staley, Charlie Francis, or even.... our own - Coach Sommer, who advices to train the Planche and F-lever back to back and using rest intervals that are 45 sec- 01:30 min. Kind of contradictory to your views.

"Pseudos are good if you have someone constantly telling you to keep your core tight. " - quite a scientific method... We should all work with someone telling us to keep our core tight and that will make it a better choice than the self-correcting tucked planche push up - which you either can do or not - you know where you stand.

I think the message is clear.

Just calling it as I see it.

1. You're right on supersets. Actually misinterpreted the 1:40 rest time between A1/A2 instead of the the sets as a whole. I read it the first time then when I came back and signed up and glossed over it, lol. In any case, I'll agree with you there.

2. Don't be so snarky on my background. Either I know the concepts or I don't. Even if someone hasn't read the research (which I have) that doesn't mean they don't understand it or know how to use it from hearing/utilizing it from a different source.

3. I've had excellent results with pretty much everything as I have experimented over the years with myself and others. I disgaree and it may be because we do different types of things I feel that straight strength work has been most effective. For example, using Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength with new people... insane amount of muscular strength (as well as mass gains if you eat enough for that).

4. If what I have said is correct about supersets previous... you assumed I meant supersets were useless? No, circuits/supersets/metcons/whatever are excellent to provide endurance/conditioning but their ability to decrease a strength deficit is limited compared to strength work with large amounts of rest.

5. Rest intervals reduced between sets 'not to failure' are less beneficial than sets gone to failure. Not that I recommend failure on frequent routines though. I know Coach Sommer didn't put it in the dragondoor article, but I don't believe he said his stuff was supposed to go to failure (from another source maybe on a different forum).

I think the benefits are higher with higher rest times though depending again on how far advanced a trainee is with their planche/front lever progressions. If they can do the full 60s in a couple sets it's going to be less taxing and more beneficial with shorter rest times because of what you said in the other post about strength and endurance in the other forum.

Indeed there are also time constraits on the amount of work you can do and your conditioning after a long practice. You can't just do strength and conditioning for 1-1.5+ hours after. Everything must be taken into account and done accordingly. For a gymnast where it is also beneficial to have a large conditioning base, lower rest times at the expense of a bit of strength and more conditioning is not at all detrimental. On the other hand, if you have your average joe who wants to get planche as fast as possible he may want to maximize the strength out of all his sets (although he will probably need some form of conditioning work if he has no capacity).

Knowing the concept is not everything and wont make you a good coach. Any kid around the internet can read concepts and repeat them as the gospel truth. In this case, the science and art of rest intervals is not so easy to dictate. Reading the research and having the experience will lead you to understand that when you are creating a program and dictating a rest inteval, many issues should be taken into consideration:

(I'm not sure you were aware of those, when you provided the figure 3-5 minutes and disagreed with my prescription)

Training age, coordination complexity of an exercise, muscle group size in question, and many many more. You would not expect to prescribe the same rest interval for a set of 5 reps of standing calf raises and a set of 5 power snatches, even though they are both done for 5rm.

Knowing the title of the concept is just the beginning. KNOWING the concept is something else.

I have said supersets, circuit for STRENGTH. I realized you think they are usefull only in an endurance situation. I was arguing the fact they are usefull in a strength scenerio. I hope you are not putting circuits, supersets with metabolic conditioning, it is comparing apples and oranges. The first two can be used for the second, but not only.

You obviously provided us with another reason to use supersets when you can in your last paragraph.

Again, I'm not saying they cannot be used SUCCESSFULLY for strength as they can work more towards strength applied correctly. I'm saying they're not *optimal* for strength based on what I've seen in theory (papers) and anecdotally both in my own training and others I have helped.

The original example being supersets generally the more you decrease rest time the more it tends towards endurance than strength. That's obviously true. Though that you clarified and realized my mistake on the A1/A2 I do agree that they have a much higher applicability to strength work [than supersets] although I still do not think that would be optimal in terms of someone looking for PURE strength which was his original goals. I tend to favor more rest between any sets working in pure strength just because any type of difficult work with low reps easily becomes more metabolic near the ending sets.

That's my preference and what I've found works, but maybe you favor shorter rest times if you also have athletes/trainees/etc. who need both conditioning work, strength and perhaps have time constraints (or whatever else). Shrug. Obviously, if you have factors like time constraints, newer trainees, whatever where you have to modify something to fit someone's certain genetics, diet or previous injuries you do what you have to do. Now, it's true that not everyone responds the same to a training regime, and it can somewhat vary drastically in certain situations so not everything is set in stone.

Should've been clearer with concepts + application of said concepts.

I don't really think we're arguing about anything really major though as your method will work, but I think higher rest times would work a bit faster.

braindx - it seems that you just argue for the hell of it here.

gymrob :

"Hey,

I have composed a routine around improving my gymnastics ability in general and building my strength and power for gymnastics moves and holds such as planche."

correct me if im wrong but i don't think anyone said he is looking for "PURE" strengh here....

braindx - it seems that you just argue for the hell of it here.

Not really. If I see something that won't optimally line up with someone's goals I'm gonna say something.

If you call that "argumentative" that's fine with me. I don't, however, argue just because I like arguing. That just takes too much time and is fairly boring.

gymrob :

"Hey,

I have composed a routine around improving my gymnastics ability in general and building my strength and power for gymnastics moves and holds such as planche."

correct me if im wrong but i don't think anyone said he is looking for "PURE" strengh here....

I don't see anything about endurance/conditioning/etc. in there.

In addition (which you didn't know), I have talked to him on other forums and IM in which I asked him to be more specific about his goals.

go and check your terms my friend - especailly the "conditioning" one.

i think that your criticism on Ido's posts doesnt come from an experience with coaching gymnastics skills or training them either. I don't believe that any gymnast would agree that Gymnastics (Strengh) Work and Classical Strengh Work should be aproached in the same way. But this disscusion should be occured in another topic.

Ido is a very respected coach both for Classical Strengh Work and Gymnastics, regardless, he gave Gymrob some excellent advices backed up by researches and coach sommer's articles.

No offense here buddy but im just not sure you have either the experience or the knowledge to strongly reject his opinion.

It is ok, Tom.

Braindx is entitled for his opinion.

I just find internet debates without educated opinions backed up by experience and research to be useless.

With Coach Sommer's permission, in the next few weeks I will start to post some of the results me and my athletes are having with my approach to the training process. We have been on the gymnastics strength and conditioning for a short while of a couple of months, but the results are impressive.

One arm chin ups, Iron Cross on longer straps than the official ones, straddle planches (two athletes), various straight arm presses, V-sits, various high jumps above or into high obstacles, and more.

Braindx, good luck with your training, and thank you for the blog link in your other post, it is very interesting and informative.

Alright, here's what I'm going to say and this will sum up everything I've said in this thread.

I'm arguing that strength work is probably best 'optimized' by strength work at about 3-5 RM with 3-5 mins rest. Now, I think we can all agree that this works well. However, Ido was saying that he thinks A1/A2 with 100s rest is more effective. To that end I would disagree. I'm NOT saying it's not strength work (I already clarified that), but I don't think it's more effective although it may be debatable depending on the person I guess.

TRYING not to be belligerent.

With coach Sommer's permission, in the next few weeks I will start to post some of the results me and my athletes are having with my aproach to the training process. We have been on the gymnastics strength and conditioning for a short while of a couple of months, but the results are impressive.

One arm chin ups, Iron Cross on longer straps than the official ones, straddle planches (two athletes), various straight arm presses, V-sits, various high jumps above or into high obstacles, and more.

That's some pretty impressive work. I'm interested to see what you have.

I do think there's a bit of a skew though especially if you're talking about gymnasts who have obtained strength moves in a very short period of time who have had extremely high conditioning levels for some time. For example, talking to one of my friends who has a cross it took him about 3-5 months to basically get a solid hold of 3-5s in his 6-7th year of training whereas it took me starting from scratch about 1-1.5 years of solid conditioning work and feeling my way through the strength progressions to obtain it.

I'm a bit more interested in taking untrained people and putting them through gymnastics work. Specifically I wonder if it would be a good idea to build up a strong conditioning base and then apply it to higher volume strength work as opposed to say training up a strength and conditioniong base at the same time or training just strength work. This is why, I think, Coach Sommer's book will be very good and hopefully a bunch of people will start training logs and keep them going as they approach whatever Coach Sommer has in store for them.

My athletes are not gymnasts. Just athletes. No prior gymnastics conditioning or specific strength skills.

I was claiming supersets were more effective from a workout design perspective, and you are a bit narrowing it down to a singular exercise overview. People will argue and say that a 10 minute rest between sets of 3-5 RM is even better than your 3-5 min aproach, but it is not realistic, right?

I choose to work with supersets after many years of straight sets work, and I believe it is much more efficient, overall. Look at the influence the A1/A2 aproach had over the strength and conditioning community... It is with a reason. Like I have noted, even coach Sommer recommends blending the planche and front lever work back to back in super sets.

I appreciate your views on the subject, we will not degrade this debate anymore.

Why don't you post something about your achievements in the strength and conditioning field? It sounds like you are quite successful in your training.