Combing Strength Training and Skill Training

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, and you could always just have them eat 30-40g of carbs worth of white bread every hour, that should do fine along with protein. Realistically, the drink is the way to go. WIll be cheaper and much less hassle. At cost, you can probably estimate about $1 per gymnast per day. that would easily cover the costs of decent whey protein (from costco, but trueprotein.net is probably just as cheap these days) AND the glucose.

2% still has too much fat, you probably felt somewhat lethargic from whole milk because your stomach was dealing with the milk fats and being fairly full. Skim shouldn't do that, but you may just not react well to milk during the workout... who knows? I do fine, but not everyone will. The drink is universally effective.

[Martin Schulz]

In bought some dextrose powder now. But the box says: "15-30 g to be taken daily. This daily limit must not be exceeded"

I drink 2 liters every workout. According to your recommendation that would be 60 g a day. I am a little worried that this might be too much so that the effect of dextrose diminishes with time...

what do you think?

[Blairbob]

2% still has too much fat, you probably felt somewhat lethargic from whole milk because your stomach was dealing with the milk fats and being fairly full.

This is what I was thinking. To note, I don't drink as much milk now as I did say last year a lot of the time. I can put away my fair share of milk if I care to in a sitting ( a quart isn't a problem ), but I just don't.

$1/day sounds interesting but bare in mind how many competitive gymnasts can be in a program (10-50, 75 or 100). It would be so much better if I could get parents to chip in and buy into it. I figure maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the kids might do it, because let's face it only so many kids could stomach it or would buy into it (and are that serious about training or not lactose tolerant). A lot of this depends on the level they are and want to be. I was thinking of trying to find some very simple whey in bulk, nothing added and adding flavoring somehow and having options. No artificial sweetners ala protein factory perhaps.

To note there is something of a precedent for something like this as some college teams will basically have workout drinks in their budget as they usually get huge bags of it for each practice. I'm not sure if they are bothering to do something like Endurox yet which is is protein+carb+electrolytes (which milk pretty much covers) but it could just be a matter of time.

[Joshua Naterman]

Oh, the Crimson Tide does! You get in line, get your drink based on whether you need to get big or get lean, and you're off the team if you don't drink it. It's part of the program. Protein, carbs, creatine is the basic mix. Not sure about electrolytes.

I would just get the artificially sweetened stuff, though you can choose the flavor with protein factory and true protein and some others. Personally, for ease of use I would just go to Costco and get the big bags of whey. Absolutely have the parents chip in and pay for it, don't do that out of your pocket! For people putting so much money into their kids, 20-25 dollars a month should be a no-brainer.

[Larry Roseman]

Sliz, what would you recommend for a population like kids. Ya know I am talking about competitive gymnasts in particular training 3-5 hours/day.

Mainly, I'd like to hear what you think might actually be something I could use for them in the real world. Non powders and etc but forms of food that can provide glucose/dextrose and protein.

AKA I'm pretty doubtful, I'd be able to get them all with dextrose/glucose+whey pre and during workout. For a variety of reasons such as taste and desire. Whey is probably not an option for most. I am currently leaning towards the thought of not consuming protein in the form of meat/cheese pre and intra-workout because of diverting blood towards digestion. I am probably going to try doing a test fairly soon on the effects on myself of eating meat or drinking milk prior or during a workout compared to none and see what performance is like.

Now for someone who is say in their young teens or in college training for elite/collegiate gymnastics, I'm pretty sure they can be convinced to implement such a drink. It still might be difficult to impose on a collegiate level athlete if they had to pay for it themselves.

From my vantage point Bob, my experience is that there is a lot of mulling around when kids are training in a group.

The work on floor and balance beam tends to be a lot of low intensity with high-intensity bursts.

If kids are working on rings, pommel or specific strength training there will be more sustained high intensity work. But overall, there seems to me to be a fairly mixed energy requirement involving all three primary energy systems, over the 3-5 hours.

The specific nutritional requirements are hard to pinpoint, since kids are of all different sizes and ages and developmental stages doing different stuff. My feeling is that a largely glucose containing electrolyte drink as needed for hydration, combined a banana every hour or so is going to address a lot of the additional requirements for this level of activity. And kids generally enjoy those.

Protein requirements to me are somewhat less urgent, if the kids ate an hour or two before starting and will again after the workout. Providing nutritional information to their parents could be helpful, to ensure that they do have a balanced meal before arriving - though not closer than an hour. Could kids possibly benefit by having some protein in their drink? Perhaps. Or a tuna sandwich and chocolate milk after workout. There are always questions of allergies and sensitivities nowadays and parents are highly protective that way. I feel it needs to be the parents who decide what their kids eat and I feel your role in that is mainly advisory.

[Blairbob]

Future, I do understand where you are coming from. In the past, I generally post up all sorts of stuff in the visitors area or boy's announcements boards.

tends to be a lot of low intensity with high-intensity bursts.

That's basically gymnastics training in a nutshell unless you're doing a full routine. Even if it's that, it's a max of 90s unless you are doing connected routines or have to a do a routine and then do sprints on floor while another gymnast on floor does a routine.

Right now, I have way too much time to sit around and think about this sort of stuff. Should I get back into (either soon or by fall) I may or not implementing such a course of action. Sort of depends whether I'm the head coach or just another coach ya know.

I would rather not deal with artificial sweetners. Mainly because you never know when someone might be sensitive to them and as such, it's not worth the risk IMO.

[Larry Roseman]

Future, I do understand where you are coming from. In the past, I generally post up all sorts of stuff in the visitors area or boy's announcements boards.

tends to be a lot of low intensity with high-intensity bursts.

That's basically gymnastics training in a nutshell unless you're doing a full routine. Even if it's that, it's a max of 90s unless you are doing connected routines or have to a do a routine and then do sprints on floor while another gymnast on floor does a routine.

Right now, I have way too much time to sit around and think about this sort of stuff. Should I get back into (either soon or by fall) I may or not implementing such a course of action. Sort of depends whether I'm the head coach or just another coach ya know.

I would rather not deal with artificial sweetners. Mainly because you never know when someone might be sensitive to them and as such, it's not worth the risk IMO.

Glad you understand that I am not trying to diminish your role or ability to contribute to a positive outcome

[Joshua Naterman]

Future: From a nutritional standpoint you need to be equally concerned about the carbs and the protein. The amino acid pool in the blood is only there for about 30 minutes after first entering the blood... whether used for protein or not the amino acids are cleared around 30 minutes after entry to the blood.

So, with the drink it is important to have a high quality protein with a small amount of protein and moderate amount of carbs. Based on the age group, average weight and approximate activity level you can make a good guess at how much glucose you need, all the way up to 50g/L of water. With more than that you start slowing down the absorption process and introducing bloating. 10g of protein per hour is actually a little overkill for the kids, at their sizes 5-7g is almost certainly all their bodies can handle. So you end up having a very diluted drink... You could also do 25g glucose and 25g sucrose, but I wouldn't do more than a 50% sucrose solution. The fructose will get released slowly enough to be more or less fully converted to glucose by the liver, especially with that level of activity. HFCS will be too much of a fructose load on the liver and cause problems, not to mention it not be used fully for glycogen replenishment. 12.5g of fructose released over 30-40 minutes won't cause an issue. There's a good reason why gatorade has switched back to just using sucrose.

At any rate, both the carbs and protein are necessary to fully take advantage of a developing gymnast's physical and biochemical state, and so you really do need to be concerned with both. The amount of protein they need is so small that the cost really is negligible, but they absolutely have to get it in small, regular doses just like the rest of us.

I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but with normal eating patterns elderly people lose 9% of their leg mass in 10 days of bed rest, while us young'ins lose about 2% in 28 days. With a protein distribution like what I am recommending you will actually GAIN muscle mass even while in bed, at least up to the point that your body would ideally carry. Even the elderly will add around 3% new muscle mass in 28 days of bed rest with proper nutrition.

This example is used because this represents an enormous difference in workload for the legs for an extended period of time, in a population that loses muscle much more quickly than young people, yet even they actually gained lean mass when protein was distributed correctly.

It doesn't take much, I mean I'm 97 kilos and I barely get 150-ish g per day of protein. I just spread it out so that nearly all of it is used, and so that I am in an anabolic state for 19 hours out of the day. That's why it is easy for me to grow and get stronger nowadays, even on a rehab routine.

When talking about a high level training regime like what gymnastics really is even at fairly young ages, it is even more important to give these kids what they need. It isn't much to give, and it makes an enormous difference.

This works on everyone, regardless of age, but the 14-18 age group is the one that benefits the most because they are basically on natural steroids for 4 years. If you do this with kids they won't need creatine, they won't need BCAA supplements, they won't need anything but sleep and sufficient calories (mostly from clean, slow carbs) to go along with the protein and they will become athletic monsters.

I hope that some day this is common knowledge, but in the meantime use this to take advantage of what is happening with your athletes and to help them achieve their true potential.

[Larry Roseman]

Future: From a nutritional standpoint you need to be equally concerned about the carbs and the protein. The amino acid pool in the blood is only there for about 30 minutes after first entering the blood... whether used for protein or not the amino acids are cleared around 30 minutes after entry to the blood.

Thanks buddy.

My take on it is that a normal meal will be digested and release protein into the blood for several hours.

Protein is absorbed along the entire length of the small intestine, although half of it is

in the uppermost region (rates of absorbtion decline after the first 30 minutes but continue for several hours).

The AA will remain available for use if needed most of the day. I can get references for this but basically

they are available not only in the blood, but in the intra-celluar fluid and cytoplasm.

(Here is one reference; starting on page 160 in nutrition for sport and exercise by

dunford & doyle

http://books.google.ca/books?id=oivgi2Q ... ol&f=false

)

At any rate, both the carbs and protein are necessary to fully take advantage of a developing gymnast's physical and biochemical state, and so you really do need to be concerned with both. The amount of protein they need is so small that the cost really is negligible, but they absolutely have to get it in small, regular doses just like the rest of us.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20942510 for a review

of benefit of mixing protein with carbs during exercise.

Generally carbs are recommended when going over 2 hours. Keep in mind the average intensity 3-5 hours is relatively low with moments of high intensity. Glycogen should not be an issue for a while but it doesn't hurt to take in

electrolytes and some sugar.

I could see that over 3-5 hours of exercise, which is 2-3 times longer than I usually go, one might want to take in some protein with carbs for staving hunger midway - like a small shake, sandwich or power bar perhaps. It wouldn't hurt to spread it out but I don't feel it is required or better as an infusion.

In fact, during exercise muscle protein anabolism ceases. There is no energy available for that in the exercising muscle. It doesn't return to an anabolic state for several hours post-exercise. This is the so-called window of opportunity.

I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but with normal eating patterns elderly people lose 9% of their leg mass in 10 days of bed rest, while us young'ins lose about 2% in 28 days. With a protein distribution like what I am recommending you will actually GAIN muscle mass even while in bed, at least up to the point that your body would ideally carry. Even the elderly will add around 3% new muscle mass in 28 days of bed rest with proper nutrition.

This example is used because this represents an enormous difference in workload for the legs for an extended period of time, in a population that loses muscle much more quickly than young people, yet even they actually gained lean mass when protein was distributed correctly.

My reading is not that it was distributed evenly - it was that they had more than typically provided in a hospital setting. It's well established that protein injestion stimulates protein synthesis. Resistance exercise on its own stimulates

it (these people can't of course). Combining the two, with protein provided before, during, or after does as well.

It doesn't take much, I mean I'm 97 kilos and I barely get 150-ish g per day of protein. I just spread it out so that nearly all of it is used, and so that I am in an anabolic state for 19 hours out of the day. That's why it is easy for me to grow and get stronger nowadays, even on a rehab routine.

1.4-1.6 g/kg is generally considered to be sufficient stimulus for muscle growth in adult males. You are in that range in fact.

When talking about a high level training regime like what gymnastics really is even at fairly young ages, it is even more important to give these kids what they need. It isn't much to give, and it makes an enormous difference.

This works on everyone, regardless of age, but the 14-18 age group is the one that benefits the most because they are basically on natural steroids for 4 years. If you do this with kids they won't need creatine, they won't need BCAA supplements, they won't need anything but sleep and sufficient calories (mostly from clean, slow carbs) to go along with the protein and they will become athletic monsters.

I hope that some day this is common knowledge, but in the meantime use this to take advantage of what is happening with your athletes and to help them achieve their true potential.

I agree 100% that kids should get the protein and other nutrients that they need.

I don't feel that they need to be sipping on it constantly or during workouts. It may not hurt, however there is no evidence

that i've seen that it helps any more than standard nutrition timing.

If that is what works best for you, more power to you. Kids are so naturally growth orientated, it is amazing

what can occur when they just have the basics. Let's get them to the basic requirement first, and then

go from there if that doesn't work. That's my feeling. After that, if the coach feels supplementation will help, it should

be discussed with the parents for approval before proceeding of course.

Before puberty though, strength gains will occur absent of significent hypertrophy. I agree with you that puberty

and beyond is the time to possibly consider this.