Combing Strength Training and Skill Training

[Martin Schulz]

Hey Guys!

There is a problem I have been struggling with since I started training and I feel like this forum is the only platform I can turn to that could be able to help me out:

I really want to improve my gymnastic skills but I am also sharing coach sommer's philosophy that you also need to prepare your body physically to keep making progress, so I strength train 4 times a week (mo, tu, th,fr). The big problem is, when I start a skill training session, my body is not yet fully recovered to show its full potential. I feel quite weak and don't really have much body control and coordination then. So this part of my training is highly compromised...

As suggested, I train intensely but without high volume. I dont feel fatigued after a strength workout, but stimulated. So I dont think I have this "take no prisoners"-attitude, as coach sommer calls it. But the next day, during my skill session, I feel my muscles are weakened.

I also tried to strength train AFTER my skill training, but mostly I dont have any more energy in my body to get any productive strength training done.

What should I do?

I dont want to compromise my skill training but still work on strength. Should I combine it by backing off strength training or should I spend a month or so doing solely strength training and then for another time period doing skill training only?

I really hope there is someone with a few years of serious training experience who can help me out with this.

Thank you in advance

[Philip Chubb]

I do this everyday. But it took some serious building up to. Make sure that all technical work comes first. This includes in the workout so handstand presses come before pull ups for example. What you will really want to do is really take your recovery seriously. Enough sleep, good diet, and not training technique until exhaustion.

[Blairbob]

Try backing off to 3 days a week. You can also try splitting your skill training and strength training per day. Try to get as many hours in between as possible. 4-8.

4 days a week is not something you can just jump into, especially if you are also skill training the same. It takes time. It sort of depends on your fitness levels but gymnastics tends to beat on the adults if they all of a sudden just jump into 5th gear.

[Martin Schulz]

Thank you two for your advice!

You are right. I mean, it is not like I just jumped into strength training 4 times a week (have been doing serious training for 2 years now) , but still, it is too much if my main focus is skill development.

Blairbob, I thought about splitting my routine. It is actually a good idea. My problem is that the time for our skill training is set. Training time is 7 to 9 p.m. three times a week. So splitting wont be able unless I do strength training BEFORE skill training, e.g. in the morning.

in this situation, would you still advise splitting? or a different approach?

[Blairbob]

Ugh, I hate strength training in the morning or morning gymnastics workouts. Bleh.

Do your skill training from 7-9p. Do your strength training afterwards. Do you do it at home or at a gym (that gym or another?)?

If that is too late, try doing your strength training whenever you can earlier in the day.

What is your strength training like now? The GB WOD (which you might be able to fit in that 2hr gym session), Killroy70, SSC FSP+FBE, or something of your own creation?

[Alessandro Mainente]

from my experience ( i think this can be true also for gymnastic skill) i'm training for breakdance skill, so i need a lot of body control for move suck airflare or elbowairflare, usually i have 4 days of GB training (mon,wend,friday,saturday), in 3 of these days i also train at my gym...so in th 4th day(saturday) i do only the GB workout of the day so the 4th day is ligth for strength...

for the skills:

-in the GB days i try the skills after the warm up when i'm fresh,i assume that i have a solid strength foundation so the skill are not to much expensive talking in terms of energy comsuption and i do tipically 6-7 attempts trying to do only perfect reps (so in this day the number of attempts is not big)

-in the other 2 days (tuesd,thursd) + saturday i perform a more intensive work for the skills, such 10-12 attempts + routine in the end

i prefer this approach then only 3 days of skill because more i try them, better is the result (assuming that your practice is fine),

the key for me is try to do also the perfect skill on the GB days so in the next day i'm sure that my body knows the movement pattern and i practice a lot to inccrease th motion...

[Martin Schulz]

Hey guys,

sry I have been offline for a while. I hope it is not too late to get some answers

Blairbob: I do my GB strength training sessions at home. There is all my equipment. And I follow the instructions in BtGB as closely as possible. So yeah, it is something of my own creation but within the guidelines of Coach Sommer (SSC FSP+FBE). I also scaled it down to 3 strength session per week now.

But still, I dont know how your gymnasts handle this (I consider myself to be reasonably fit), 2 hours of skill training drains my energy pretty much. I do tumbling mostly. So it is not that my muscles are fatigued then but I simply dont have the energy to do the strength training afterwards. I am gonna experiment doing strength the morning right after the skill training days. Im just worried that recovery wont be enough as skill training would be right the following day , then (in the evening)

Alex87:

Wow, thats impressive! so you train 6 days a week with 4 times strength? How can your body handle that? You probably built up to that. how many years did it take? and it probably also depends on the length of your skill sessions. How long are yours?

As I was saying, its 1,5-2 hours in my case. Less than that you can get no good tumbling work done :wink:

Thank you again

[Alessandro Mainente]

about 2.5 years ago i was training 3 days a week for 1.5/2 hours in a session...with the time my body adapts and also the breakdance skill are easier than before so the practice is more more based on tecnique then obtain the necessary strength....i add one day more each year...so now i am at 6 days a week..and at the gym i usually do rings for the biggest part of time and if my wrist are fine i do pbars (only simple skill) and pommel horse...

i usually do in gb days:

-30 minutes warm up, 20 minutes breaking skill,15-20 minutes of handstand on different apparatus (rings, pbars etc),1 hour of strength, 25-30 minutes of stretching

on the breaking day

-30 minutes warm up,45 minutes breaking skill + 15 minutes routines, 15-20 minutes of handstand total work, 30 minutes stretching

this is the foundation that can be different in function of study,work etc

i can say that the GB ideas let to me to become more proficient of breakdance skills..

in 2.5 years i add only 1 hour a day of training BUT the biggest part of it is concerned of joint prep and flexibility...also my diet is good i sleep at least 8-9 hours a nigth..i can study 7-8 hours a day...so i think my body adapted very well...i don't think i'll increase more the hours of training or the daily session...in this way i progress and i'm happy

[Blairbob]

One of the things critical towards long training sessions such as 150 minutes to 240 minutes is glycogen replacement.

If practice is at 7, I'd see about eating between 5-530 if possible. Try that and maybe you can see if you can come home and workout. Or eat something light right after practice, come home and strength train. Or strength train on your days off (TuThSa).

To replace glycogen, just bring some form of fruit to snack on. Or you could make an intra workout drink of something carby+protein. Sliz would agree on that. I have a few friends who would sip on their intra workout drink (whey+carbs) for our 150-310 minute works. They rarely ever went longer than 3 1/2 hours. Maybe 12p-315p at longest.

[Martin Schulz]

That sounds really good. I will try that approach. Only two short question:

1. I usually do joint prep right before strength work. so now, when combining it with skill training and strength, should I do it before the stength part or directly at the beginning of the workout?

2. You talk about glycogen, so those are polysaccharides, am I right? so youre talking about low GI carbs. Or is it better to take simple sugars during the workout too? I really like dextrose, it gives me more energy. Or should I stick to fruits only?

[Alessandro Mainente]

for the first question i usually do joints prep after the workout, every exercise of joints prep with high reps for 3-4 sets works well...

[Blairbob]

2. You talk about glycogen, so those are polysaccharides, am I right? so youre talking about low GI carbs. Or is it better to take simple sugars during the workout too? I really like dextrose, it gives me more energy. Or should I stick to fruits only?

I am basically talking about carbs and sugar. I could really care less what you use. This is covered in Slizzardman's nutrition thread. For kids and myself, I find granola bars and fruit work alright but I'm sure you can use more fancy stuff.

I prefer joint prep at the beginning, occasionally doing some in between sets if necessary.

[Martin Schulz]

Thank you all for your help

[Alessandro Mainente]

I prefer joint prep at the beginning, occasionally doing some in between sets if necessary.

hi blair, maybe is only my idea but don't you think that doing some intense joint prep before workout (as for example scapula stabilization etc) you risk to have the stabilization muscles to much tired for the skills? i alwasys thougth that for the skill is better have fresh stabilization muscles to avoid controlled and perfect tecnique in exercise...

[Blairbob]

True, it's a matter of how much.

Too much and you tire out the stabilizers and limit how much work can be done.

However, I'm getting old and beat up so if I don't do shoulder and wrist joint prep beforehand my probability of injury goes way up.

[Alessandro Mainente]

ok now it's clear, i didn't written that i usually do 1 set of joints prep before workout and more intensive work post workout..

[Joshua Naterman]

The right amount of joint prep is very important pre-workout because it lets you feel and use those muscles during your strength work, leading to better form and better performance in the workout. Too much makes you tired. It may take a few workouts to figure out how you need to feel from your joint prep.

As for the nutrition, Blair said it. What we do here is nearly 100% glycolytic. Our workouts run on sugar. It is very, very important that you have your glycogen stores filled up when you start your workout. That means eating every 3 hours that day, at the very least (but shoudl be al lthe time) and getting around 5g/kg bw of carbs spread evenly throughout the day as a baseline. SLow carbs work best for this, but you will probably do well with some moderately fast carbs like brown rice 30 minutes pre-workout. Probably just 1 cup cooked rice, but experiment.

The intra-workout drink with dextrose/glucose is very important. DO NOT have more than 50g dextrose per liter of water. That will start delaying gastric emptying. You will have to figure out for yourself how much you need. I would also have 10g of protein for every hour that you workout. Have that separately unless you know that you always go through your liter every hour or something like that. It is better to have a small amount of protein in the water with the carbs, but don't use a whole scoop. Just 10g at a time, in however much you drink over the course of the hour. I recommend that you take in a minimum of 1L per hour.

1L = 1 quart =32 oz, more or less. Don't get all technical on this, it's close enough. I would start off with 40g glucose and 10g protein in 1L of water. Adjust from there.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Sliz, how would someone do something like this without dextrose or glucose powders? What kind of food could people snack on during the WO to get a similar effect?

Let me see if I understand this correctly: <50g dextrose + ?g Glucose in 32 oz (1L) per hour + the 10g PRO/hour Constant.

And then if, say, I need to replace 100g CHO from the WO, I would just replace that in 2-3 meals every 45-60 minutes PWO + my baseline of 25-30g CHO/hour.

Is that right?

EDIT: Wait, Dextrose is a natural occurring form of glucose, but dextrose is chemically an isomer of glucose. In that case, when you write dextrose/glucose, do you mean literally dextrose OR glucose (as in basically the same) or dextrose AND glucose?

Hahaha, this stuff makes me humble

[Joshua Naterman]

dextrose = glucose.

For food, plain white bread, probably wonderbread, is really the only thing that will difest fast enough. Well cooked white potato would probably be similarly decent, but you have to remember to have enough water with it.

Glucose/dextrose powder is so abominably cheap that I don't know why anyone would opt for anything else. it is the best thing you can use.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

dextrose = glucose.

For food, plain white bread, probably wonderbread, is really the only thing that will difest fast enough. Well cooked white potato would probably be similarly decent, but you have to remember to have enough water with it.

Glucose/dextrose powder is so abominably cheap that I don't know why anyone would opt for anything else. it is the best thing you can use.

Yea, it's only $2 a pound at TrueNutrition (http://www.truenutrition.com/p-950-dextrose-1lb.aspx). I'm ordering some... way easier then chewing on lettuce and biscuits during the workout lol

[Blairbob]

Sliz, what would you recommend for a population like kids. Ya know I am talking about competitive gymnasts in particular training 3-5 hours/day.

Mainly, I'd like to hear what you think might actually be something I could use for them in the real world. Non powders and etc but forms of food that can provide glucose/dextrose and protein.

AKA I'm pretty doubtful, I'd be able to get them all with dextrose/glucose+whey pre and during workout. For a variety of reasons such as taste and desire. Whey is probably not an option for most. I am currently leaning towards the thought of not consuming protein in the form of meat/cheese pre and intra-workout because of diverting blood towards digestion. I am probably going to try doing a test fairly soon on the effects on myself of eating meat or drinking milk prior or during a workout compared to none and see what performance is like.

Now for someone who is say in their young teens or in college training for elite/collegiate gymnastics, I'm pretty sure they can be convinced to implement such a drink. It still might be difficult to impose on a collegiate level athlete if they had to pay for it themselves.

[Martin Schulz]

Slizz,

I take a bowl of whole grain muesli with nuts and dried fruits 1 hour before workout as Im mostly in the university where I cant really prepare some rice or potatoes. But 4 hours before that, we usually get a high carb meal in the canteen of my uni. That should be fine too, right? and as for the protein, I take some BCAAs during workouts. That shouldnt mess with the taste of the drink that much :wink:

Blair,

by the way, how many times do your gymnasts train 3-5 hours/day?

[Blairbob]

Collegiate athletes pretty much only seem to train 1 big session per day. They may do a small, shorter and lighter session later in the day/evening if they care to and have time. This really depends. A lot of female collegiate athletes get sent to the Uni collegiate weight room but many don't report in cause they don't like it so they make up excuses. It really varies.

Most kids in most programs just train 1x/day unless they are in a homeschool program or are training elite. Then you'll hear of 2/day. None of my kids ever have done that (not currently coaching now) as I have only coached kids or in programs where they did 1x/day.

Well, I guess I have coached in camp before when they have trained in both the morning and afternoons so that in effect is 2x/day. Generally that in when kids are out of school though, during the summer or school off times.

[Joshua Naterman]

Sliz, what would you recommend for a population like kids. Ya know I am talking about competitive gymnasts in particular training 3-5 hours/day.

Mainly, I'd like to hear what you think might actually be something I could use for them in the real world. Non powders and etc but forms of food that can provide glucose/dextrose and protein.

AKA I'm pretty doubtful, I'd be able to get them all with dextrose/glucose+whey pre and during workout. For a variety of reasons such as taste and desire. Whey is probably not an option for most. I am currently leaning towards the thought of not consuming protein in the form of meat/cheese pre and intra-workout because of diverting blood towards digestion. I am probably going to try doing a test fairly soon on the effects on myself of eating meat or drinking milk prior or during a workout compared to none and see what performance is like.

Now for someone who is say in their young teens or in college training for elite/collegiate gymnastics, I'm pretty sure they can be convinced to implement such a drink. It still might be difficult to impose on a collegiate level athlete if they had to pay for it themselves.

If you try milk, use skim only! Usually I would advise against this, but during the workout you need to have rapid gastric emptying and that's what skim milk will give you.

Hmm... as for the carbs, having white bread is probably the easiest and cheapest solution. Protein is tricky, whey is super cheap and so is glucose so just mixing 30g of glucose and 5g of whey into .75 to 1L of water is really ideal. The skim milk is a close second, and perhaps just as good. It would help if there was a little bread to snack on too, but it's important to have just a bite and a swallow or two of milk after each turn on the equipment, you know? Alternatively, you could have 15-20 minutes of apparatus work and then have the kids eat a piece of bread and drink 6-8 oz of skim milk.

Don't worry too much about the digestion thing, the body will always prioritize movement. If anything becomes sub-optimal it will be nutrient processing and absorption, not their performance.

If nothing else, an electrolyte solution (sodium is the key) and some sugar (preferably the glucose but some sucrose in there is ok too, just not more than 50-50 glucose to sucrose which yields a 75% glucose mix). Somewhat weak chocolate milk is also a good idea, but it needs to be 1% or skim. Preferably skim in the middle of the workout. Somehow I see the chocolate milk being the idea that takes off

[Blairbob]

Alternatively, you could have 15-20 minutes of apparatus work and then have the kids eat a piece of bread and drink 6-8 oz of skim milk.

Not really a great idea. Breaking rhythm doesn't work well halfway through the event and 15-20m might only be half to a 1/4 of the duration on an event. There is a possibility if you can do an event and do basics, take a short break to grip up and come back but there is transit time on/off an event and of course making sure another group doesn't steal your event or setup.

Skim milk or flavored whey may be an option. I like the idea of flavored whey+glucose/sugar/etc. It would easier to "sell the idea to parents" than milk probably. One of the issues is dealing with cost either out of my own pocket or perhaps setting up a chip-in pot from said gymnast. At this point I'm sort of just brainstorming but also thinking of my own training. I'm sure there might be a few kids who would be lactose intolerant or just don't like milk or wouldn't like flavored. Some kids might go for flavored whey if they are real diehards or hungry or if you tell them it's gonna make them stronger. Less so with girls and it has to taste good or no dice.

The other day when I was hungry, I decided to slug down a glass of whole milk before going to the gym to my OlympicLifting. I noticed I seemed sluggish (which I feel more during OlympicLifting than Gymnastics training since the first part of Gymnastics has to do with WU and basics, mobility, basic strength [and by that time more than likely my stomach would be empty]) whereas with OL it's basically WU/mobility and get into the lifts).

So I supposed I could try skim milk and see how that feels vs whole milk. I've had a few of my gymnasts who could train well and drink milk (whole/2%) without issue but perhaps that was just an off day for myself. Sure felt like it.

Thanks, Sliz. Guess I have some experiments to set up for myself as a guinea pig in the near future.