Fixing Muscle imbalances and Scapula during Front Lever

Hello!

I decided that instead of making a hundred different threads, i'll just put all of my questions into one. One regarding how to fix muscle imbalances and one regarding the scapula positioning during FL.

Age: 19

Weight: 68 kg

I have known for a while that a had i few muscle imbalances some more noticeable than others. After I started to put more time in my training, they became more and more obvious and started to annoy me. Now i'm finally ready to action, and do something about them. The right side of my chest, left biceps, the grip on my left hand and (it may be the difference i biceps strength) the left side of my lats. Last week a tried to find my one rep max in benchpress by doing reps with 55 kg (pretty terrible i know, but it was my first time) and then using a 1RM calculator to find my max. It was my first time benching and then i became clear how big the imbalance in my chest actually was. My right side was tired at 5 reps, while my left like it could have one at least 8 probably more.

The difference in my grip became obvious while deadlifting. My right hand started to struggle at 160 kg, while i started to loose my grip with my left at 120 kg.

I have been conscious about the difference in my biceps for a while but still i haven't gotten around to do anything about it. It also might be the cause of the imbalance in my back too. The imbalance in my back i discovered while doing dumbbell rows (i dont that exercise very often). I did 3 sets of 5 reps with 37,5 kg, while i had no problem completing all the sets with good from with on my right side, my left started to struggle on third repetition i the second set. I was quite surprised considering that the weight wasn't even that heavy.

I read in another tread that the best way to fix imbalances was exercises that challenges only the weak side. So i was thinking of the following:

Assisted XR OAC - Left biceps, left back

Dumbbell Rows - Back, Left side

Dumbbell Curls - biceps, left side

Dumbbell Bench - right side

Elevated One Arm push-up (spotted with my left arm lying straight on a bench beside me for balance) - Chest, right side

(quite unsure about the push-ups since there is a lot of pressure on the triceps, and i don't want to get a new imbalance just when finally trying to fix the ones that i already have. But i do love the exercise)

On Monday i'm going to have training session where i test how many reps i can do with the given exercises on both sides, so i can track my progress. I currently do not have a workout routine, i have been tried the WODs and i'm now considering using killroy's routine for a SSC before trying the WODs again.

So basically what i need advise on is how frequent and how intense should i train, should I include exercises that hits both sides at the same time? Any other exercises i should consider doing, and how LONG will it take to fix these?

PIcture 1:

Picture 2:

I know that on picture one my back i way to rounded and i wans't thinking of pushing my chest forward. On the second picture i tried to push my chest a much forward as i could manage. To me it looked better, but still rounded. I don't know a about these things, so i'm asking you guys.

If it so happens that my back is still to round, what do you guys recommend for fixing it. I wrote above that i was thinking of starting a killroy routine including Flat Tuck Yewkis and Tuck Front Lever rows. Should i get the right scapula positioning before including the exercises that involve the front lever. Having a rounded back may also be reason why i have struggled doing flat tuck FL pulls.

Like i mentioned above above my routine i completely open so can devote a lot of time fixing my current problems. If can cut out any exercises that is related to my problems if it is recommended. I would still like to keep exercises like rope climbs and PPP.

I'm sorry for a very long post, but wanted to say everything i had on my heart. I hope i have made everything clear, and if not don't hesitate to ask.

Best regards, Andreas .

Anyone ? If my questions are unclear just say so, or if anyone have asked these questions already please give me a link to those threads.

I am workning on a routine which i probably will post.

And sorry about the lack of clothes on those pictures, i wanst planning to use them for anything when i took them. I hope they didnt offend anyone.

Best regards, Andreas

Dude, clothing was perfect. That's what everyone needs to wear, with girls having a sports bra too of course, if they want the best feedback.

I advise a few things:

1) Stop working on FL. Go back to the prerequisites, and include among them scapular work.

2) Start working on foot supported rows, bringing bar to the chest or bottom of sternum. Execution matters a LOT, follow this exactly:

A) dead hang. Feet are on the floor, body is at a 30-40 degree up from the ground, bar is over your torso, arms are locked straight, shoulders are somewhat forward. hands are slightly wider than shoulder width (at the closest, thumbs are in front of the middle of the shoulder). Spine is straight, with upper thoracic spine arched and neck pulled BACK, not flexed forward.

B) The ONLY thing that should change is that now you should squeeze your shoulder blades together as hard as you can. That's key. Flex the triceps to keep the arms straight, try to pull the neck BACK instead of letting it move forward and squeeze those shoulder blades together HARD.

C) HOLDING THE SHOULDER BLADES WHERE THEY NOW ARE, pull your body towards the bar ( I highly suggest you start on a bar of some sort, but rings are fine in a pinch. In fact, if rings are what you have I suggest you run a broom handle or something very solid through the rings so you can still start with a bar). DO NOT let your shoulder blades stop squeezing together. This will be hard at first.

D) KEEP squeezing the shoulder blades together and lower yourself back to straight arms.

E) Now that your arms are straight, let the shoulder blades come back apart and relax in position A.

F) repeat A-E for as many perfect reps as possible.

It is 184% VITAL and NON-NEGOTIABLE that you make sure you ONLY perform reps that are as perfect as possible. You can do this with dumbbells or a barbell if you can't get do this properly when hanging off a bar (it can be tough at first). You would want to build up to a total of 40-50% of your body weight with the barbell or the two dumbbells added together if you have to go that route, but at that point you should be able to switch over to the bar. Once you get the hang of this with whatever weight is appropriate in the beginning (might be 5-10 pounds per arm, who knows) get to where you can do 10-15 reps with that weight both in the pronated and supinated grip position. Those positions are described in the next paragraph.

Once you have the hang of it and can do things perfectly with the bodyweight variation, I'd do 3 sets of 8-15 reps. Don't make it harder until 15 perfect reps are fairly easy and only increase difficulty to where you can still perform 8-9 perfect reps. 1 set palms facing feet (pronated or pull up grip), 1 set palms facing your face or the ceiling (supinated or chin up grip, in this case the pinkie would be in the middle of the shoulder at the closest) and 1 set neutral grip (this is where you will use the rings for sure).

The very long term goal is to be parallel with the floor at the midpoint of the row. This will take a long, long time but you will be BEAST strong when you can do it. AT THAT point it would be appropriate to use these for warm up and start transitioning to doing this with tucked FL rows.

When you can do this properly in that final position you should also be WAY strong enough to start working on Yewkis and other FL-related FBE.

If you work them before being able to keep the scaps back you will actually permanently prevent yourself from getting as strong as you should be able to get because you will not be developing the strength in the upper back OR the lats that you really need.

This has been a real eye opener for me, and I hope it helps you out.

You know Slizz,if you ever come to Croatia, please let me know..Iʹll buy you the best lunch you can imagine..

Excellent explanation and description of such an important FBE!!

I will one day and I look forward to that lunch! I love food, you know.

Glad the explanation helped!

Slizz, could you post a video of this move??? I don't understand how you could do these foot supported rows weighted with a barbell or dumbbells? Wouldn't the bar just roll of your body while pulling up. I seem to have a hard time visualizing this move. I'm probably just overlooking something, i don't know.

twan said:

Slizz, could you post a video of this move??? I don't understand how you could do these foot supported rows weighted with a barbell or dumbbells? Wouldn't the bar just roll of your body while pulling up. I seem to have a hard time visualizing this move. I'm probably just overlooking something, i don't know.

You may have mis-read the exercise, or maybe I mis-typed. What I meant was that until you are strong enough to do the exercise with your bodyweight (which is when you hang off a bar) you might need to do this as a bent over row with very light dumbbells or a light barbell until you build up to 35-50% of your bodyweight total on the exercise. Then you should have no trouble moving to the bodyweight version using perfect form.

Slizzardman wrote:

Dude, clothing was perfect. That's what everyone needs to wear, with girls having a sports bra too of course, if they want the best feedback.

Ahahaha, you read my mind Slizz ! This is exactly what I think when I open this post !

Aaahhh, know I get it. I knew i was forgetting something. Thx slizz

slizzardman said:

Try to pull the neck BACK instead of letting it move forward and squeeze those shoulder blades together HARD.

For everyone who´s stuck on Frontlever, concentrate on the above

Slizz, is cable row also acceptable on the exercise? My friend just wanted to know it, he doesn't have access to proper barbells or good dumbbells in the gym he has to use

Uzeeh said:

Slizz, is cable row also acceptable on the exercise? My friend just wanted to know it, he doesn't have access to proper barbells or good dumbbells in the gym he has to use

Always use what you have, but whatever he uses for a handle needs to be wider than his shoulders.

Thanks Slizzardman for a great post! Like Ivan said, if you ever come to Norway i will buy you the best dinner available !

I haven't been able to try out what you recommended because of some finals at school, and stuff like that. If i understood you correctly you would recommend me to cut out pretty much every pulling movement except the bodyweight rows, right? I already have 60 sec hold in Superman Arch-up, reverse plank, hollow hold and PB support. The Plank i didn't bother testing because i already had 16 minute bent strict bent arm plank on the floor. Would still recommend me doing them? After the cut out the Front lever my FSP warm up looks like this: 3 x 20 sec Flat Tuck Back lever (i have a good half lay for about 5-7 seconds, which i am very pleased with considering i have only been doing it for about 2 and a half month), 4 (3) x 15 sec Advanced Frog Stand (just started that one) and Low L-sit 3 x 20 sec. I'm also thinking of adding planche leans, serratus push-up and ring support to build a good base for future planche training (serratus push is also good for the scapula position, isn't it?).

When i comes to a scapula routine i have read that many recommend's Ido Portal's routine and cuban press, are those good choices?

What do you guys think of my exercise choices for fixing my imbalances. I was thinking of adding 2 sets of Assisted OA Push-up and 2 sets of dumbbell benchpress on my right side two days a week, and two sets of dumbbell curl on my left arm 2 x 4 (5) with 17,5 kg probably. Should a do more, less, any other exercises i'm pretty much open to anything.

Slizzardman, do you have any recommendations for exercises that improve grip on just one arm? I was thinking of putting a towel over a bar and then hanging with just my left arm for about 4-5 ten second intervals.

I will probably post a routine later, when i'm finished with my biology test (Wednesday) it would be nice with some evaluation and critique.

Thanks for answering and have a good day!

Best regards, Andreas .

Well, if you can do pull ups with the retraction first that would be a good idea, and it IS ok to still do other pulls but I would not focus on them. Personally, I am taking a nearly complete break from all pulls while I work on my shoulder motion. I can do a few truly perfect retraction-style pull ups so I do those, but we're talking sets of 3 reps. It is hard to stay perfect for me because I am so heavy! You may have a very different experience.

I also have a lot of shoulder problems and I am working on all of those at the same time, so it is necessary for me to lose most of the upper body work for a while. That will result in temporary mass and strength losses in my upper body but for my long term goals this is essential. So far so good, and I intend to keep it up. The mental aspect of this is tough, because I have to remember that taking 6-12 months to truly build a solid shoulder girdle is a short period of time when looking at my life and thinking that I want to be able to train consistently for 50 years. If I had not been injured, and if I had truly taken the time (and had the knowledge) to maintain my shoulder girdle strength after my injuries and worked hard at staying balanced this would probably not be necessary, but with my current situation it is. I will emerge quite a bit stronger than I currently am, and that is totally ok with me. Take 5 steps backwards to be able to take 100 steps forward later on? Roger that, Batman. I'm on board.

Which exercises are good choices depends entirely on whether you can perform them correctly or not! You can do everything Ido shows (with the exception of 1 or 2 motions) while lying prone or supine (depending on the exercise) on a bench with light dumbbells or sand bags (preferable). I am biased towards sandbags because they are so finely adjustable and that allows for very long term progress in ways that can't be accomplished with standard dumbbells or bands. However, bands are EXCELLENT tools and I am in no way saying they should not be used. Without a personal evaluation it would be irresponsible for me to just say " Yep, do Ido's band routines!" However, with light enough bands it is probably ok. The key is to be retracted while doing the shoulder movements. In other words, you need to be focusing on the traps and not the shoulders when doing the exercises. It is easy to mess that up.

I will make my way out there in the not terribly distant future, I believe. One way or another I will cash in on these free meals hahaha!

Slizz will do anything for a free meal!

Cole Dano said:

Slizz will do anything for a free meal!

0_o... the secret is out! :shock:

Hey Slizzardman just tried the rows and I can surely feel it in my upper back. Just a question, how would the reverse work for push ups in order to hit the protracting muscles?

josh14270 said:

Hey Slizzardman just tried the rows and I can surely feel it in my upper back. Just a question, how would the reverse work for push ups in order to hit the protracting muscles?

That would be a push up wth a plus. You start retracted at the bottom and stay retracted through the push up. At the top, with straight arms, you then lift your body as far away from the ground as you can. You want to do these flat or slightly inclined (like in a push up on the floor) and slightly declined (feet on a chair with a hollow body) to hit the different parts of serratus anterior.

You can focus on the plus part but first master the proper push up form. It builds a lot more strength than staying protracted the whole time does and is far better for the shoulders. Having your fingers pointing out 20-40 degrees is also going to be healthier for the shoulders (incidentally, this is the position parallel bars put your hands in and ) as it keeps the pressure from the humeral head more centered in the socket.

slizzardman said:

A) dead hang. Feet are on the floor, body is at a 30-40 degree up from the ground, bar is over your torso, arms are locked straight, shoulders are somewhat forward. hands are slightly wider than shoulder width (at the closest, thumbs are in front of the middle of the shoulder). Spine is straight, with upper thoracic spine arched and neck pulled BACK, not flexed forward.

B) The ONLY thing that should change is that now you should squeeze your shoulder blades together as hard as you can. That's key. Flex the triceps to keep the arms straight, try to pull the neck BACK instead of letting it move forward and squeeze those shoulder blades together HARD.

C) HOLDING THE SHOULDER BLADES WHERE THEY NOW ARE, pull your body towards the bar ( I highly suggest you start on a bar of some sort, but rings are fine in a pinch. In fact, if rings are what you have I suggest you run a broom handle or something very solid through the rings so you can still start with a bar). DO NOT let your shoulder blades stop squeezing together. This will be hard at first.

D) KEEP squeezing the shoulder blades together and lower yourself back to straight arms.

E) Now that your arms are straight, let the shoulder blades come back apart and relax in position A.

F) repeat A-E for as many perfect reps as possible.

This was awesome in so many ways. I was writing a question about row technique just a couple of days ago and deleted it because i wasn't making any sense in the way i was trying to describe my technique. Then I find this thread and BOOYAA!

Quick follow up question. I'm assuming a good tempo for these should be fairly slow and controlled. Maybe 212?

The tempo should be whatever feels good to you and COMPLETELY eliminates momentum from the movement.

What you described would certainly be fine.

Delete please.

My progress with the dumbbell rows have been pretty slow (currently have 15 reps with 3,5 kg in each hand), therefore im wondering if i am using my upper traps a bit. My shoulders seem to be slightly elevated while doing the rows, is this normal?. When done with the exercise i do feel that the muscle between the shoudler blades are tired, so atleast i feel it in the right place.

Thanks, Andreas

Progress with super slow movement seems slow in general because you are doing so much work, and because the weakest areas and/or the areas with the least endurance will be what have to develop before progress can be made. With faster movement, endurance is not as much of an issue which is a large part of why much heavier loads can be lifted. Of course, this is also why exclusively practicing fast movements without including super slow work or isometric work often leads to structural imbalances, lack of progress, and injury.

Your post doesn't really have enough information for me to make any kind of useful comment beyond the above generalization. What is your tempo per rep? How long have you been working on these and what has your progress looked like? Scapula are never going to be fully depressed when performing rows, but should not be fully elevated either unless you are really focusing on upper traps. Scapular movement and position also depends heavily on your body angle as well as arm angle relative to the body. Please don't ask me to explain that in words. After the semester is over I will explain a bit of this in another video or two.

I've had some computer problems so video was a little late.

I have been doing one set each day like you recommended since seriously since january, with period of two to three weeks in early march where i wasn't as consistent. The progress was pretty good the first month, then it started to get slower (which i guess is normal considering my body was getting used to the movement). Around the end of February i hit a plateau which lasted until two weeks ago. For the most part the tempo i've using is the same as in the video above.

I don't need a long answer but i would be nice with just a quick form check, just to know i'm on the right track at least. Thanks again, Josh.

Andull said:

I've had some computer problems so video was a little late.

I have been doing one set each day like you recommended since seriously since january, with period of two to three weeks in early march where i wasn't as consistent. The progress was pretty good the first month, then it started to get slower (which i guess is normal considering my body was getting used to the movement). Around the end of February i hit a plateau which lasted until two weeks ago. For the most part the tempo i've using is the same as in the video above.

I don't need a long answer but i would be nice with just a quick form check, just to know i'm on the right track at least. Thanks again, Josh.

I would play around with keeping your hands under your elbows and not bringing them up to the shoulders. With light weight it won't matter but as you get stronger that habit you have will cause problems. Bringing hands to the shoulders won't help you with your FL.The lats will be involved, they are supposed to be. Traps and lats work together. Back and neck lines look pretty good.

I would start working into a 3-4 day per week program with 3-5 sets.

Day 1: super slow. 10s up, 10s down. This will translate to 2-3 reps per set. each set lasts 60s.

Day 2: 3-4s up, 3-4s down. This will translate into 7-10 reps per set. Each set lasts 45-60s.

Day 3: 1s up, 2-3s down. This will translate to 5-12 reps per set. Each set lasts 20-40s. This is the beginning of shifting to strength work.