Initial Experience with gymnastics, questions.

So I have a few questions after my initial forays into gymnastic training.

1. Does a 'proper' back lever constitute having your palms backward? I've seen some videos of either way, I know planche hand position is about comfort/preference, is this the case for all holds.

2. I have elbows that hyper-extend a fair bit, this leads to a lot of pressure on the back of the elbow, where the tricep tendon is. Is there a way to help prevent this, or will I become accustomed to it over time?

3. I have developed this odd 'pain' in the area of my shoulder where the bicep and pec insertions kind of meet, it isn't that bad, I was wondering what the likely cause of it is? I have a relatively good base of strength coming into trying this type of training and was thinking I perhaps progressed too fast, causing my tendons to become bothered, because I had good muscular strength, not so much in the tendons though. I seemed to notice it around the time I started using my rings, mostly doing muscle ups, RTO supports/dips and the levers.

4. Is it better off developing the front and back levers on a bar before rings? I wouldn't have thought they would have been as important, but I think my time is less on the rings, so maybe it is a larger factor than I'd have estimated.

5. I'm relatively heavy for this type of training, at 82kg and quite lean(so I can't lose much more, already lost 4-5 since I started), 9-10% bodyfat roughly, also have quite a bit of mass in the legs from squatting and deadlifting, should I be progressing slower than a smaller person even if I have the strength to move on in a hold? Rather than having 2 weeks of underloading, extend it to 4? Or make smaller jumps when I progress?

FWIW I can do the 3x60 pre req, with feet elevated to shoulder height for planks.

1. A supinated back lever prepares one for crosses as it places more stress on the bicep tendon.

2. Yes, get strong with the bent arm work to protect the elbow.

3. Possibly. Dunno. Sorry. I've heard reports of bigger guys (crossfitters) finding ring work harder on the connective tissue than midgets and string beans but it's way different if you're 6' 200 than 5'5 and 150 or 5'10 and 150

4. Doesn't really matter but rings can be slightly more difficult. It's a bit different. Rings are more unstable in support but in hang there is little to no difference in my training.

5. Just be more wary. If you are using a SSC it shouldn't be that different. Sliz was not when he first started his ring work and he was 6'2 225 then or so.

Thank you very much. I had a feeling that the answers I got where going to be pretty much as you said, but I thought it better to ask and know for sure, than to hurt myself or something.

So I have a few questions after my initial forays into gymnastic training.

1. Does a 'proper' back lever constitute having your palms backward? I've seen some videos of either way, I know planche hand position is about comfort/preference, is this the case for all holds.

2. I have elbows that hyper-extend a fair bit, this leads to a lot of pressure on the back of the elbow, where the tricep tendon is. Is there a way to help prevent this, or will I become accustomed to it over time?

3. I have developed this odd 'pain' in the area of my shoulder where the bicep and pec insertions kind of meet, it isn't that bad, I was wondering what the likely cause of it is? I have a relatively good base of strength coming into trying this type of training and was thinking I perhaps progressed too fast, causing my tendons to become bothered, because I had good muscular strength, not so much in the tendons though. I seemed to notice it around the time I started using my rings, mostly doing muscle ups, RTO supports/dips and the levers.

4. Is it better off developing the front and back levers on a bar before rings? I wouldn't have thought they would have been as important, but I think my time is less on the rings, so maybe it is a larger factor than I'd have estimated.

5. I'm relatively heavy for this type of training, at 82kg and quite lean(so I can't lose much more, already lost 4-5 since I started), 9-10% bodyfat roughly, also have quite a bit of mass in the legs from squatting and deadlifting, should I be progressing slower than a smaller person even if I have the strength to move on in a hold? Rather than having 2 weeks of underloading, extend it to 4? Or make smaller jumps when I progress?

FWIW I can do the 3x60 pre req, with feet elevated to shoulder height for planks.

1) Yes, the grip must be supinated during BL work. To choose to do otherwise results in improper preparation of the elbows for more advanced ring strength work.

2) The degree of hyperextension in your elbow is congenital and cannot be changed. Depending on the severity, it can however be mitigated through proper progressions and patient programming.

3) Your issues are more than likely the result of insufficient preparatory work; both from a gymnastics strength base and from a joint mobility/prehab base. You are attempting to intensely train elements that you are physically not yet ready to address.

4) Back up, slow down and address the prerequisites that were not mastered previously. At this time you are ready for neither FL nor BL training.

5) Relatively heavy for Gymnastic Strength Training™?!? Not even close. This is a myth propogated by those with insufficient knowledge and experience; nothing more.

At 82kg (180lbs) you are far from being one of the largest GB trainees (the largest was 265 lbs). Our tallest is 6'6" tall and a physical beast (excellent flexibility, press HS, weighted chin of 135 lbs etc). Our heaviest have averaged from 220-230 lbs and, despite their large economy size, have made quite impressive gains. Recent GB Seminar graduates may remember the excellent progress that Paul from New York made between the May 2011 GB Seminar and the Sept 2011 GB Seminar.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Ok thanks for that, I never thought I was the largest trainee, or even close, I have read through the forums quite a bit and just noticed that most were smaller, my question was simply would my weight (and distribution/leverages) affect my rate of progress, or should I just use the SSC as is, progressing when I hit 2 weeks underloading.

Also, I have read quite a few conflicting opinions on pre reqs, what exactly should be my first stops? I can do the circuit of planks raised to shoulder level, arch and hollow hold, dip support and dead hang for the 60sec each with little to no rest, hold an L sit on the ground for around 30 sec, german hang for 30sec with not too many problems, stomach to wall HS for 1min 30sec, Frogstand for 30sec with little issue (other than being slippery from sweat lol), good flexibility/mobility. As far as actual movements go, I've got a loose OAC on right, not far off on left, +3/4bodyweight weighted chin, bar muscle up, deadlift 185kg, pistols +25kg, nearly a OA rollout, can do the negative, need a little boost for positive. I know that a lot of these dont have a huge carry over to this sort of stuff, but I think it all counts to something, from what I could gather from the info here, I thought I was at the stage I could move on to the beginning stages of ring work, levers etc...

I have already backed off a lot on the stuff I was doing, I'd pretty much restricted myself to bodyweight only for 4 weeks and probably did too much, I'm considering using the killroy 70 program from now on, I'll just use some BB and DB movements in the place of some bodyweight, as well as add some leg stuff on the curl and dip and MPPu days.