Modification of the BtGB routine?

Hello everyone!

The BtGB routine is based on working out four times a week. Five on a "feel-good" week, and 3 if work/life has been eating into the recovery of oneself. On each of these sessions, the same FSPs are used (meaning, one uses them for a total of 4 times a week each).

Example:

M/T/Th/F: You start with L-sits, then do Planche and Front Lever work, etc etc, followed by more dynamic exercises.

However, I was wondering if the FSPs could be trained in 2 of those four days, and then once more on a fifth day. As so:

M/Th: Start with L-sits, Planche holds, FLs, etc. Follow with the dynamic work

T/F: No isometrics, but you WOULD do the dynamic work

Sa: Only do the FSPs (no dynamic work).

This way, you train 5 times a week (albeit the sessions aren't THAT hard, as they got diluted), the FSPs thrice a week (instead of 4 times a week), but you end up with two days where one can TRULY focus on the Fundamental BW exercises.

Let's be honest. The static positions do require a certain amount of effort, so by the time the dynamic exercises come (One-arm Chin-ups, Dips, Muscle-ups, etc) one isn't as fresh. With this slight modification, one would now have one day where only FSPs would be used (so you can focus on them), and 2 days where the BW dynamic work can be done alone (one will be fresher for them).

Is that a good idea?? Why/Why not??

Unless you're already pretty decent with the FSPs (say maybe a 40s advance tuck), I don't really see FSP work alone doing any real good.

I smell overthinking in this post. Just pick something, try it for 4-6 weeks, check your progress and adjust as needed

phrak said:

Unless you're already pretty decent with the FSPs (say maybe a 40s advance tuck), I don't really see FSP work alone doing any real good.

I smell overthinking in this post. Just pick something, try it for 4-6 weeks, check your progress and adjust as needed

So not following the FSPS with the more dynamic stuff, the former's effect is diminished? That's pretty interesting. Hadn't thought about that.

And I don't get how it's overtraining. It's literally LESS work than with the normal BtGB routine (you practice the FSPs 3, instead of 4 times a week), and the sessions are spread out over one more day (diluting them, which makes them easier on each time).

It's what I've been using for 3 weeks now, and I've been so far fine. I'm only using L-sits as my only FSP though. I'm asking because I'm thinking of adding Planche and FL work on the next SSC, and I wanted to know if I should stay with this kind of template, or if switching to the exact BtGB would be better (and why).

Also, I thought a SSC had to be carried for 8-12 weeks without a change to allow strength to be solidified. However, you advice that it should be adjusted every 4-6 weeks? I'm a bit confused now

You need to go through the prerequisites first. Search for FSP prerequisites and yo should find the threads. One is a sticky in either the "Getting Started" or "Basic Strength" subforum. Don't skip steps. Do this part properly and you will be a long way towards having the final FSP without ever directly training it. I still focus on these and do no direct FSP work at all, and I have a good 7-10s front lever full lay. Try to keep that in mind. Prereqs are key.

You are also probably working too hard. There is no purpose in doing more than 4 sets, regardless of your hold time. All you can do is fatigue your body. You will need to build up to a single 60s hold thru adv tuck but this happens faster when you are not wrecking yourself. Whether you are training FSP 3x per week or 4x you have to carefully control the volume. Don't ever have a working set that is less than 8s, and don't do more than 4 sets. That's 32s total if your max hold is 15-16s. When you re-test you will find that your max hold has gone up and you can do a new SSC. If you are very good about doing a TRUE SSC and not making things harder as they start to get easier you will notice fairly large gains if done at the same time as the proper FBE and joint prehab.

slizzardman said:

You need to go through the prerequisites first. Search for FSP prerequisites and yo should find the threads. One is a sticky in either the "Getting Started" or "Basic Strength" subforum. Don't skip steps. Do this part properly and you will be a long way towards having the final FSP without ever directly training it. I still focus on these and do no direct FSP work at all, and I have a good 7-10s front lever full lay. Try to keep that in mind. Prereqs are key.

I think I found them:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7306

or

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4313

However, Coach never talked about them in the book. I was simply following the book (though apparently, I should use this before?).

slizzardman said:

You are also probably working too hard. There is no purpose in doing more than 4 sets, regardless of your hold time. All you can do is fatigue your body. You will need to build up to a single 60s hold thru adv tuck but this happens faster when you are not wrecking yourself. Whether you are training FSP 3x per week or 4x you have to carefully control the volume. Don't ever have a working set that is less than 8s, and don't do more than 4 sets. That's 32s total if your max hold is 15-16s. When you re-test you will find that your max hold has gone up and you can do a new SSC. If you are very good about doing a TRUE SSC and not making things harder as they start to get easier you will notice fairly large gains if done at the same time as the proper FBE and joint prehab.

Ok, ok. Now I'm EXTREMELY confused. I understood from the book that one is to pick a static position, divide in half one's max hold, and do as many sets as needed to reach 60 secs of quality work.

But you're saying something different here. So if I can hold a Planche position for 10 secs, should I do 12x5 secs of it (just an example), or should I not use it at all.

Moreover, if I can hold something for, say, 16 secs, instead of doing 8x8, I should do 4x8 (a max of 4 sets) ??

Or is that just applicable to the "prerequisites", while the static positions from BtGB play by the book's rules?

305, it sounds good to me. I eventually changed to a program that did 2/d week of FSP's and FBE's and was progressing. However, I was still in the gym 4 or 5 days a week.

Sliz likes the no more than 4 sets or less than 8s but it's something I disagree on.

12x5 or 10x6 is very tough though. However, I've done it on a 2d and 4d/week protocol and yes, I could hit 60s of the progressions up to straddle BL besides 20 of 1/2 lay. Either worked.

If you cannot do 3x60s of all the pre FSP's (the planks and basic support/hang and L-sit), you don't need to be doing the FSP's such as planche and the levers.

305pelusa said:

And I don't get how it's overtraining.

I said overthinking. Here, read this (nsfw language)

phrak said:

305pelusa said:

And I don't get how it's overtraining.

I said overthinking. Here, read this (nsfw language)

This is possibly the single greatest read I've ever had. This part is so true:

The Internet provides a rich soil for fuckarounditis to grow and take hold of the unsuspecting observer. Too much information, shit, clutter, woo-woo, noise, bullshit, loony toon theories, too many quacks, morons and people with good intentions giving you bad advice and uninformed answers. Ah yes, the information age.

Some of it is bullshit wrapped up in a fancy paper with scientific terms, elaborate detail, promising cutting edge strategies based on the latest research. This makes it easier to swallow for intellectuals and those seeking a quick fix; two different groups, both equally susceptible to bullshittery and easy prey for scam artists.

This goes for nearly everything, not just exercising. Superb.

The heavier you are, the worse of an idea a consistent 12x5s is, but in general it is too much. You can not do that 4x per week and expect proper progress. I'm not saying you won't move forward, but in my experience with people it is not the fastest or safest way.

Think about it: You are working extremely hard. This would be like trying to do 90% of your bench for 12 sets of 2 reps, 4 times per week. Tell me what you think that will do to you, can you handle that? It really isn't THAT different.

You CAN do that 1, maybe 2x per week but it will be a workout unto itself. You WILL experience full fatigue. That is not helpful if you are trying to do an actual workout.

1) Those are the threads. Read them well and get started on the prerequisites!

2) Even blairbob, who is a lot smaller than I am, says that 12x5 is pretty hard. Practically everyone has had the same experience. If you're going to insist on working a FSP that you have a 10s hold for, you should hit it 1-2x per week, and do easier holds like a proper planche lean the other 2-3 days you train. For the planche leans you should be hitting 20-60s per set for a total of 60-100s.

If you keep yourself fatigued it will take a lot longer to adapt and get stronger. It will work eventually, but I do mean eventually as in quite a while longer than it SHOULD take.

3) Merkham is, in general, a loud voice of reason and has an excellent grasp of what works and what does not. Pay a bit of attention to what he says. Remember he is a bodybuilder, and not a performance athlete, but most of what he says applies to all situations... especially the basics.

I agree with slizz. i used to do more than 3 sets, and it was just too tiring for a warmup. Now I usually do 2-3 sets. Most of the time, I just do 2 sets.

slizzardman said:

Think about it: You are working extremely hard. This would be like trying to do 90% of your bench for 12 sets of 2 reps, 4 times per week. Tell me what you think that will do to you, can you handle that? It really isn't THAT different.

Ok, I understand. You said the heavier one is, the more this applies. I'm 140 lbs. What do you suggest I do? Stay under 10 sets, or should I still use the 4-set-rule?

I am wondering something though. I started this SSC with the L-sit as my only FSP. Should I finish it first, and then add the prerequisites? Should I add them ASAP? Should I stop doing L-sits until I pass all of the prerequisites??

I'm guessing programming of the prerequisites themselves will be in those threads, so that won't be a problem.

I'd keep your actual L sit work in at least 2x per week, especially if you have at least a proper position with 20-30s max hold in the bent knee or low straight leg L sit.

You should run the prerequisites as SSC, all together. Start with the first step of each and don't move on until you have been able to do the single set of 60s for at least a month. You don't have to do a strict 12 week SSC, but at least 4 weeks for sure. 4-6weeks will probably work well since you aren't going to be limited by connective tissues and that's about how long the muscle takes to fully adapt to a given load and volume.

I will suggest that you start immediately using horizontal hollow plank (feet same height as shoulders, but they can start on the floor if you need to), hollow hold, arch hold, and reverse plank. I would also start working on wall HS, stomach to wall with a hollow body. Hollow hold is the single foundational prerequisite, so do that first. Arch hold is next, and then plank and then reverse plank. Hollow hold will build your plank if you have trouble with the proper body position.

slizzardman said:

I'd keep your actual L sit work in at least 2x per week, especially if you have at least a proper position with 20-30s max hold in the bent knee or low straight leg L sit.

I can hold one on the floor, straight legs, for 20 secs. I've been doing 8x8 thrice a week. Guess that stays exactly the same.

slizzardman said:

You should run the prerequisites as SSC, all together. Start with the first step of each and don't move on until you have been able to do the single set of 60s for at least a month. You don't have to do a strict 12 week SSC, but at least 4 weeks for sure. 4-6weeks will probably work well since you aren't going to be limited by connective tissues and that's about how long the muscle takes to fully adapt to a given load and volume.

So I could add them for the last 4 weeks of this SSC, which I'm doing.

Also, I looked for the prerequisites of hollow planks, but couldn't find a video. Should I do it on my forearms, or the top of a push-up positions?

Also, the prerequisites you listed, I can hold all of those for more than 60 secs already. So as far as strength goes, I doubt I'll benefit much from them. Should I do them anyways?