GSP gymnastic challenges

[RatioFitness]

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[Archbishop o balance]

Nice videos =) Check out his entire channel, there are many videos of him doing Muscle-ups, Handstand walks, Straddle press to Handstand, cast wall walks etc!

[Larry Roseman]

It does go to show you the degree of specificity in training that is required to

master the gymnastic moves. On the other hand, it suggests that things like

1 arm pull ups and handstand pushups while impressive feats, are not required

in order to compete at the highest level in MMA.

Perhaps if he could do these though, it would help him finish off opponents :wink:

Just saying!

[Rolf Nilsen]

*snip*

Every min spent developing his OAC would be time lost in the ring.

*snip*

Ah, but all marshal arts I have been involved with includes strength training. Sometimes really heavy duty strength training. If I had known about the GB program and how to train strength properly I would have been a much better fighter for it

The GB program and the workouts of the week is fantastic. Just saying

[AlexX]

Perhaps if he could do these though, it would help him finish off opponents :wink:

Just saying!

GSP could be a better gymnast but not a better fighter. Every min spent developing his OAC would be time lost in the ring. There is a difference between a guy who does gymnastics because it helps his sport performance and a guys who's sport is gymnastics.

I have to disagree with you there as there is a flaw in your logic. You are assuming that OAC would take away time from the ring. As a professional fighter he has time allocated specifically for strength training, the OAC can take place of any pulling exercises a proper routine would have. How much would a OAC would actually help him is unknown - my guess not much since the guy seems extremely strong already.

It does go to show you the degree of specificity in training that is required to

master the gymnastic moves. On the other hand, it suggests that things like

1 arm pull ups and handstand pushups while impressive feats, are not required

in order to compete at the highest level in MMA.

Perhaps if he could do these though, it would help him finish off opponents :wink:

Just saying!

A degree of specificity is required to master any strength move weather it is the bench press or handstand pushups. Our bodies adapt to what we do on a regular bases. There isn't any gym exercises that is "required" to compete at the highest level of MMA but being strong sure helps.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Coach, these are stupendous clips! Thanks a lot for bringing our attention to them.

[Joshua Naterman]

To a large extent I agree with Jeff. GSP is, more or less, an immaculate fighter at this point. Is he boring? Yes, somewhat to most viewers, but that's because he IS such a great fighter. He's not in there to give the opponent a fighting chance and he isn't in there to get himself into a pure match of strength. He's there to win, period. If there's one thing I think GSP could be better at it's actually using his striking, but he's so ridiculously dominant with his grappling that there is not much need.

As far as OAC development goes, I am taking a radically different path to strength and so is Dillon, and we're getting stronger at EVERYTHING without really trying all that hard. It CAN be done, and done in less time than he is currently training, but with current publicly available knowledge being the only context I would agree 100% with Jeff's assessment.

GSP would benefit the most from multi-plane pulling, far and away. That is what grappling IS, so that would be his best use of time. Not OAC. OAC would be useful, yes, but definitely not AS useful. A slow, controlled muscle up would be the second thing on that list. If he had those two things he would definitely be even better than he is now, at least as far as physical capability goes, but OAC? Eh. That's too far away from what a fighter does do be worth direct work using publicly known methods.

[RatioFitness]

Fourth, outside of the iron game sports there is no lifts the directly correlate to performance in a specific sport.

I have to disagree here. There are moderate correlations between relative squat strength and sprinting speed. Since sprinting is a sport, that would be one example.

But the thing is, track sports are tailor made to find correlations because they are based on measurable variables. On the other hand, sports such as MMA, BJJ, boxing, ect., have no simple measurable performance standards.

Other than that, I think your critiques are valid. One has to question, why would a MMA athlete pursue gymnastics? It sure seems like the strength curve for gymnastics is greater, and given the lack of correlation between performance and strength in exercises, why bother?

If anything, these videos on GSP as just an example of transferability of gymnastics to weights, but not the other way around. GSP has much poorer gymnastics performance than a gymnast would have at weights. But, we already knew that.

[Joshua Naterman]

Fourth, outside of the iron game sports there is no lifts the directly correlate to performance in a specific sport.

I have to disagree here. There are moderate correlations between relative squat strength and sprinting speed. Since sprinting is a sport, that would be one example.

But the thing is, track sports are tailor made to find correlations because they are based on measurable variables. On the other hand, sports such as MMA, BJJ, boxing, ect., have no simple measurable performance standards.

Other than that, I think your critiques are valid. One has to question, why would a MMA athlete pursue gymnastics? It sure seems like the strength curve for gymnastics is greater, and given the lack of correlation between performance and strength in exercises, why bother?

If anything, these videos on GSP as just an example of transferability of gymnastics to weights, but not the other way around. GSP has much poorer gymnastics performance than a gymnast would have at weights. But, we already knew that.

There is a greater correlation between squatting and jumping than squatting and sprinting, and a much greater correlation of stiff leg deadlift to sprinting speed than squatting. Regardless, there are many fast people who have much lower lift numbers than powerlifters who sprint at the same speed. This has a LOT to do with foot and lower leg strength in general. All that leg power has to travel through the achilles tendon and the calves, as well as all the foot/ankle flexors. Knowing that, the lack of a STRONG correlation makes more sense. I have not been squatting or deadlifting at all for quite a while, my legs are smaller and weaker, and my jump and sprint speeds are higher simply because I have been focusing on my calves both explosively and for strength. That automatically recruits the entire lower leg, and the difference there is measurable in a 5" increase in vert and a noticeable increase in sprint speed. I don't have numbers for sprinting since I have not timed myself, but I can beat nearly the entire football team (maybe 80% of them) and there's only a few who can blow me completely away, and quite a number of them are pretty fast. And that was in sandals.

Anyways, as far as the gymnastics goes I can tell you from personal experience and from working with a few grapplers and fighters that multi-plane pulls are ridiculously useful for MMA. An MMA athlete would want to pursue gymnastics because the movement patterns that we build up to are very much present in a fight that includes grappling, and building strength in those is enormously beneficial. Hence why I can manhandle people who put up bigger numbers than I do in the gym.

There is also the issue of relative strength, which becomes much more meaningful for all non-heavyweight fighters. Gymnastic strength tends to build a much higher degree of relative strength AND tends to be more useful due to the similarities in movement patterns and the manner in which it develops joint integrity (which is crucial for power transfer when striking) which is why it would be a better primary focus. Not an exclusive focus, but the primary focus for strength work.

If you are going to delve into some sort of academic dissection of reasoning, please don't. Jeff isn't going to respond because it's a waste of time, we aren't here to argue semantics in this case. He made a general statement that has fairly strong data to back it up. It's stupid to ask why athletes work out, it is obviously because they perform better when the muscles used to perform are strengthened specifically. The point was that one particular mode of training, be it powerlifting or olympic lifting or kettlebells or gymnastics, does not have a monopoly on creating superior athletes. Sport is, first and foremost, about mastering the techniques specific to that sport and using them in a way that puts you in first place according to the rules of the sport. That was the whole point. No one is arguing that power cleans won't help make you explode off the line or jump a bit higher, the point is that they are not the only way to get there. That's a pretty well-accepted idea that is easy to prove since it can be seen in practice across the country and the world, even today.

[RatioFitness]

The point was that one particular mode of training, be it powerlifting or olympic lifting or kettlebells or gymnastics, does not have a monopoly on creating superior athletes.

This is obviously true. If that's what he meant by my quoted statement then that wasn't a very good way to state his point. You can hardly blame me for seeing the word "correlate" and assume that he means there are no lifts which are found to have a statistical relationship to sports performance.

[Joshua Naterman]

True enough.

[Joshua Naterman]

[RatioFitness]

I said "DIRECTLY correlate" genius. Directly being the key word in that statement.

You're right. You did say that, and now that I realize it, what you said makes sense. You were right, I was wrong. Given that, I still find you to be a rather ungracious winner.

[newguy5000]

GSP is my favorite fighter. I loved watching clips of him doing gymnastic training before his last fight and it was great to see a fighter do something a little different with his regime and take a little risk. I say risk because as others have mentioned an Elite MMA fighter has to cover so many different forms of training that doing something out of the box would seem a bit risky to many. There are so many modalities of training to cover it's incredible. MMA fighters are probably some of the most all round fit and strong athletes out there. Anyone who has done a little MMA training can vouch for that. You can be fit and strong in punching and kicking but gas out in under 2 minutes of proper grappling. And vise versa. You need speed, strength, endurance ect ect.

I also found it interesting to see GSP struggling on muscling ups and some other gymnastic moves in his pre fight clips. It made me realise just how hard gymnastics really is. Though size / body type is probably also in play. There is a clip of BJ penn doing a muscle up with Greg Glassman and he knocks it out pretty easy - but then he is a smaller dude.

I agree with Slizz et al about only having so much time to train and many roads to victory. Same is said about the O lifts in certain sports because of technical elements. However, I do agree with GSP though in one of his interviews they asked him what martial art he would recommend putting a kid in and he said do gymnastics first. 'A gymnast can replicate everyone else's skill, but no one can replicate a gymnast skill.' I think as a base for MMA, martial arts or sports in general a gymnastic base is probably second to none. Certainly, in my rockclimbing and BJJ days i climbed and rolled with a couple of newbies who were former gymnasts and they were incredible beginners.

[RatioFitness]

LOL, people keep challenging him to do gymnastics stuff.

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His friend does some, but they are really bad.

[Jeremy]

Fascinating topic.

Good that you on this site are well educated.

I am 36 with a background in various sports over about 20 years: weightlifting; sprinting; kickboxing; grappling; yoga; and in recent years, running.

This gymnastics training is new to me. Very impressive. I always thought a sport that has people were tights was for girls! Got my 4 year old son into it last year for the flexibility. But having read this site and bought the book can see the athletic value of gymnastics conditioning for sports.

Being a long-time fan of MMA back to the early 90s, have to say these GSP videos are quite interesting. I have no idea how useful gymnastics training is for MMA. I'll have to pass a word along to Georges, or ask some UFC guys about their thoughts on this next I bump into them. Might tell them about this site.

Frankly, I'm in the student-seat on this one and will take your advice above on how to adapt the training to grappling, my personal sport now.

Cheers!

[Seiji]

Slizz, you make it sound like you're the grandmaster of a ninja clan who holds a secret scroll which teaches the one arm chin up lmfao

[Joshua Naterman]

Grandmaster might be saying a bit much, there are two of us lol!

[newguy5000]

When i did BJJ a former gymnast came into the class. He stood about 5ft 4 and was lean but densly muscled like a ring specialist. A guy a little taller and a little heavier put him in an arm bar on the mat and he stood up and and curled the guy off the floor mostly with a single arm. Like a frigging bicep curl. Lifted him straight of the floor.

For grappling i always found technique is the best but after that strength / power to weight ratio and conditioning are king. The gymnasts i briefly wrestled / grappled with had outstanding power to weight ratio in their upper body and they seemed to pick up very quickly that 'body feel' of themselves and their opponent that all good grapplers must develop. For lower body my personal opinion is that it is pretty damn hard to go past cleans / power cleans for any kind of grappling that involves takedowns. Even Greco roman wrestling or the upper body take down techniques of Judo benefit so much from that explosive type training.

I have heard a few people comment on this site about gymnastics for upper body and weights (cleans / deads/ squats ect) for lower body is a great way to go. I'm excited to to try and combine them myself after i finish my first introductory SSC.

Anyone else want to see the Spider and GSP fight at a catchweight?

[Philip Chubb]

I have heard a few people comment on this site about gymnastics for upper body and weights (cleans / deads/ squats ect) for lower body is a great way to go. I'm excited to to try and combine them myself after i finish my first introductory SSC.

Anyone else want to see the Spider and GSP fight at a catchweight?

Same here about the lower body lifting. I really want to, but am afraid of my legs growing.

GSP vs Anderson would be awesome because they would both have a challenge. But Anderson is just so much heavier that I don't think it would be a good match up.

[Jeremy]

Newguy,

I got my son into gymnastics when he was 2/3 years old and at that age it really is just familiarization. Ages 5-7 is when training that forms a base for sports starts. I don't believe in putting children into training that is too intense too early. Better to let a kid be a kid. Another risk is that some of the training might stunt a kids growth. I also worry about long term effects on the joints: how thoroughly do we know about the effects of gymnastics training in children on the risks of osteoarthritis in the joints later in life??? I have moderate OA in my left hip and I can tell you it is no fun because it is degenerative in the long run and is difficult to manage. I'm thinking of taking him out of gymnastics because of this concern.

Regarding GSP and Silva, I've also wanted that fight for a really long time. It will probably happen, but not before one or both of them looses, in my opinion. Both fighters have more to loose than to gain in such a fight right now. If either looses his credibility is seriously weakened which will give opponents in his own division confidence. If either wins it means establishment as pound for pound top fighter, not a real title with not necessarily any money. Plus Dana makes much more money from 2 (virtually) undefeated champions than 1.

Just my cabbage.

[newguy5000]

Newguy,

I got my son into gymnastics when he was 2/3 years old and at that age it really is just familiarization. Ages 5-7 is when training that forms a base for sports starts. I don't believe in putting children into training that is too intense too early. Better to let a kid be a kid. Another risk is that some of the training might stunt a kids growth. I also worry about long term effects on the joints: how thoroughly do we know about the effects of gymnastics training in children on the risks of osteoarthritis in the joints later in life??? I have moderate OA in my left hip and I can tell you it is no fun because it is degenerative in the long run and is difficult to manage. I'm thinking of taking him out of gymnastics because of this concern.

Regarding GSP and Silva, I've also wanted that fight for a really long time. It will probably happen, but not before one or both of them looses, in my opinion. Both fighters have more to loose than to gain in such a fight right now. If either looses his credibility is seriously weakened which will give opponents in his own division confidence. If either wins it means establishment as pound for pound top fighter, not a real title with not necessarily any money. Plus Dana makes much more money from 2 (virtually) undefeated champions than 1.

Just my cabbage.

Hi Jeremy. I'm no expert but i think the stunting growth thing is more of a myth. As to injuries in later life or even as a kid from the sport, again i am no expert but i would imagine a lot would be down to the training facility and how they go about the task of preparing the kids for gymnastic training. You put a kid into any sport and if you have some idiot training them it can lead to injuries ect. It seems to me that as long as time and care is placed in developing kids in a properly instructed and supervised gymnastic program they are no more likely to be injured than in any other sport or even playground fooling around that happens at that age. The key is i think finding a program - whether it be gymnastics or softball that you feel is well structured and well supervised where your kid gets to have fun. I agree about letting a kid be a kid. I don't have any kids yet myself, but if they didn't enjoy it i wouldn't send them to it. But i know as a kid myself i really enjoyed intense training from a young age because it was well taught and made to be fun.

I agree about the GSP v Anderson fight. I agree they are still the golden boys for UFC and until one of them loses it's not worth the $$ for the company to make them fight. BJ stepped up to fight GSP out of his natural fighting weight. I'd like to see GSP do it too.

[Jeremy]

Hi Newguy,

I was away on vacation, sorry for the late reply. I guess the thing with gymnastics that is different is the intensity and degree of flexibility and strength training relative to other sports, starting at a very early age. It might not be a problem, but I'd want hard evidence to the contrary before taking the risk. At my son's gymnastics they have the kids lie back on a giant roller to build back flexibility which is a big "no, no" in some books on flexibility (ie. the Stark Reality of Stretching, I think).

But I totally agree in the high value of gymnastics training. I haven't felt so excited about a conditioning program since I got into lifting weights in 1991. You seem to have a lot more experience with this training than I do. Any idea where I might learn to develop a program for grappling? I've got the GB book. I was also wondering, is it possible to do gymnastics training in a way that does not interfere with the lightness needed for endurance sports like running?

[Seiji]

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[Gavin Strelitz]

I think the super fight that makes the most sense is Anderson Silva v Jon Jones. I don't like the stylistic matchup of GSP v Silva and the weight difference is a problem.