Question on Which Book?

Hi,

I wanted to ask about your program vs. Convict Conditioning. A few injuries (nothing serious) from years

>of weight lifting but am ready to make the switch to bodyweight training.

Here is a little more background:

- A shoulder injury from bench pressing

- An elbow injury from "preacher" curls

- Late 40s

- Travel up to four days/week

- No place in the house for things like gymnastics rings (I do have an Easy Effort Chin bar and TRX, which I bring with me on trips)

A couple of friends from the 'net have said good things about your program, others have suggested Convict Conditioning may work better for my schedule and injuries.

Wondered if you have any thoughts?

Thanks -

Just a quick "bump"...would welcome any recommendations or feedback from the coach.

Thanks

Don't buy CC. It has barely any content and is mainly designed for people who can't even do one pushup...

Have a look at "Never Gymless" by Ross Enamait. Take it easy on your elbow and shoulder and switch over to the WOD, as soon as you feel ready.

Hello MontanaJack!

As an ex-CC practitioner, I would say work on Convict Conditioning until you reach at least step 5 on each exercise, if you can already do step 5 for all six exercises with good form, I recommend starting Coach Sommer's gymnastic based workouts, as you'll see much greater long term benefits. Keep in mind you can also do the FSP's (static holds) from Building The Gymnastic Body of you are working towards step 5 on the "Big 6" in CC.

The only problems I have with CC are that some of the steps have too great of a jump in difficulty (vertical pulls to horizontal pulls for instance, and step 6 to step 7 of the squat series). Probably the biggest thing that bothers me is that One-Arm Handstand Pushup is only a theoretical "master step" and the author of CC very likely cannot do it with the proposed strict form. Also I have yet to see Legs together One arm pushup without torso twisting. With my observation on simple human biomechanics, keeping a straight torso when doing an OAP with legs together with CC form is almost impossible due to balance issues. I would believe at least shoulder width leg placement, strict OAPs are actually doable, as the leg opposite of the working arm will at least provide some stability. I may be completely wrong though so someone can correct me if I am.

Overwall I think the only good progressions you can get out of CC are the Pullup, Squat and Bridging series. One arm pushups CC form is sketchy, and your time will be better spent working on a Planche instead. One arm handstand pushups are ridiculous because not even Coach Sommer's exceptional athletes, along with world class Olympic gymnasts can do them, what makes you think some guy training in jail can? The leg raise series are nothing special, because Coach has Hanging Leg Raises in his book already along with a much more comprehensive and challenging core series.

I would use CC to build a slight base if you are a complete beginner that cannot do a single pushup or pullup, otherwise following advice on this forum and getting Coach Sommer's book would be my recommendation.

Thank you for the detailed reply!

Just to confirm: I can do around 50 - 60 pushups in good form, 25 - 30 when I follow the form CC recommends. Chins/pullups...10 (form is not the best), 4 when I follow the CC form.

How about travel? Based on the limited space in hotel rooms, TRX works fairly well and I can knock out the pushups and BW squats. Are the exercises in Coach Sommer's book conducive to this restriction?

Again, appreciate your inputs.

I pretty much agree with CalGod in every way. Its really not a bad introduction to bodyweight work but it sounds like you are already past that. So unless you're just sold on CC Gymnastic Bodies has much more to offer, as does Enamait.

BtGB is a much more comprehensive book. It will require you to put a little thought into creating a program to suit your goals and needs. If you travel allot the WODs may be too much hassle, as they change up often and require equipment, or ways of adapting that will be too much trouble on the road to do consistently.

The kilroy70 style program is one way to get rolling. A quick search will find it for you.

Mr. Brady/Danny CE,

Thanks for your feedback.

A friend loaned me Ross' book...good stuff...and I briefly glanced at his copy of CC over coffee. Didn't really get a chance to read it. My friend's background is similar to mine and he has actually followed the CC program from the first steps to Stage (?) 6 of most of the exercises and has started working into bridging and handstand pushups. He said his shoulder issues rarely bother him and a nagging back issue is gone. And with a tighter diet, at 50-something, he looks more athletic and leaner than his weight training days after a year of the program. Hence a little inspiration to get on the stick.

Thanks for the referral to Kilroy 70...did a search on him and found the program via a link on Crossfit. Some of the exercises listed are "Greek" (yes, call me a reformed ironhead ) and when doing a search are clearly not within my abilities at this stage.

So, I apologize for appearing to be a little dense...just want to ease into this properly and want to make sure the shoulder & elbow continue to feel good. That is why I'm wondering if there are progressions in Building the Gymnastics Body similar to what I saw in CC that will get me into more advanced BW training, or, if I should develop things from a CC perspective first and perhaps get BtGB and slowly add exercises from that book.

Probably would be easier to decide if I had both books in front of me, but, both have gotten good reviews & this is a bit of a departure from bench and leg presses. LOL

Good board and enjoy the information.

Again, thanks much. I looked at the Table of Contents for BTGB and it indicated pushups, etc. So this would provide the progressions to get into the more advanced (for me) moves? Seriously, some of the things Kilroy listed are so far out of my league at this point, it is kind of sad.

And apologies for taking up time/space...clearly you all are out of my league but looking to learn/get started.

BTGB, Never Gymless and CC are all great books about bodyweight exercises, and they are all different at the same time, and thats the beauty of it.

montanajack said:

Hi,

I wanted to ask about your program vs. Convict Conditioning. A few injuries (nothing serious) from years

>of weight lifting but am ready to make the switch to bodyweight training.

Here is a little more background:

- A shoulder injury from bench pressing

- An elbow injury from "preacher" curls

- Late 40s

- Travel up to four days/week

- No place in the house for things like gymnastics rings (I do have an Easy Effort Chin bar and TRX, which I bring with me on trips)

A couple of friends from the 'net have said good things about your program, others have suggested Convict Conditioning may work better for my schedule and injuries.

Wondered if you have any thoughts?

Thanks -

1) If you have a portable pull up bar you have a portable rings station.

2) Why on earth would Coach recommend anything but his program? Aside from this obviously being his site and his business, it is literally the best bodyweight program I have ever even heard of. It is slightly skewed towards strength/power than extreme endurance, which is quite honestly much more useful in pretty much any situation you can think of aside from a marathon. You still build truly excellent endurance so you don't need to worry about that. Scaling the workouts and making sure you aren't aggravating existing injuries is obviously your responsibility and not any program's. We do have this forum here so that if you aren't sure how to make these workarounds yourself you have access to a huge amount of resourceful people who are dealing with the same thing as well as some of us who are either manual therapists or doctors or working towards those ends. We are here to help, but I would be lying to you if I told you there was any program more effective than this one.

3) That is not to take away from Ross. His books are truly excellent and he is, as far as I know, an awesome guy. Some people like his style of training more and if they do that's how they should train! They will still not build the overall ability that you get here. They will be better in endurance and worse in strength.

4) Part of me feels like CC should stand for Complete Crap. "Paul Wade" has shown some very intelligent progressions towards SLS and one arm push ups, but outside of those the entire book is just not that great. I can't completely trash it because it will certainly help you build a somewhat decent level of fitness, but the program is very incomplete and doesn't even come close to providing you with what GB does. Having said all that, if you want to do that program for any reason at all, then that's what you should do. It will not be the optimal use of your time from a training perspective but for nearly all of us it is not about being optimal: It is about having fun and keeping a functional body. That needs to come first. For me, GB is the way to go. For you it may not be.

montanajack said:

Thank you for the detailed reply!

Just to confirm: I can do around 50 - 60 pushups in good form, 25 - 30 when I follow the form CC recommends. Chins/pullups...10 (form is not the best), 4 when I follow the CC form.

How about travel? Based on the limited space in hotel rooms, TRX works fairly well and I can knock out the pushups and BW squats. Are the exercises in Coach Summer's book conducive to this restriction?

Again, appreciate your inputs.

You have enough base strength I would say, just work more on your pullups, and get some handstand pushups going. For legs, simply working towards a single leg squat will be all you need for now (if you want massive bodybuilder/oly lifter legs, then single leg squat won't cut it, but for general athletic leg strength it is enough IMO.

A pullup bar and maybe a set of pushup bars/parallettes is all you need for now, a set of gymnastic rings would enable you to do virtually anything in the book, just hang them on your pullup bar. Remember calisthenics requires very little equipment. Just a tip though, if you decide to work on back lever on your pullup bar, keep some cushions under you for safety.

Ok, I'm impressed...I looked at slizzardman's videos and those arms in the biceps video? I've sent that link to four of my nephews who are brainwashed that the iron is the only way to get strong, fully developed arms. Slizzardman, thanks for the videos and good job!

slizzardman said:

montanajack said:

Hi,

I wanted to ask about your program vs. Convict Conditioning. A few injuries (nothing serious) from years

>of weight lifting but am ready to make the switch to bodyweight training.

Here is a little more background:

- A shoulder injury from bench pressing

- An elbow injury from "preacher" curls

- Late 40s

- Travel up to four days/week

- No place in the house for things like gymnastics rings (I do have an Easy Effort Chin bar and TRX, which I bring with me on trips)

A couple of friends from the 'net have said good things about your program, others have suggested Convict Conditioning may work better for my schedule and injuries.

Wondered if you have any thoughts?

Thanks -

1) If you have a portable pull up bar you have a portable rings station.

2) Why on earth would Coach recommend anything but his program? Aside from this obviously being his site and his business, it is literally the best bodyweight program I have ever even heard of. It is slightly skewed towards strength/power than extreme endurance, which is quite honestly much more useful in pretty much any situation you can think of aside from a marathon. You still build truly excellent endurance so you don't need to worry about that. Scaling the workouts and making sure you aren't aggravating existing injuries is obviously your responsibility and not any program's. We do have this forum here so that if you aren't sure how to make these workarounds yourself you have access to a huge amount of resourceful people who are dealing with the same thing as well as some of us who are either manual therapists or doctors or working towards those ends. We are here to help, but I would be lying to you if I told you there was any program more effective than this one.

3) That is not to take away from Ross. His books are truly excellent and he is, as far as I know, an awesome guy. Some people like his style of training more and if they do that's how they should train! They will still not build the overall ability that you get here. They will be better in endurance and worse in strength.

4) Part of me feels like CC should stand for Complete Crap. "Paul Wade" has shown some very intelligent progressions towards SLS and one arm push ups, but outside of those the entire book is just not that great. I can't completely trash it because it will certainly help you build a somewhat decent level of fitness, but the program is very incomplete and doesn't even come close to providing you with what GB does. Having said all that, if you want to do that program for any reason at all, then that's what you should do. It will not be the optimal use of your time from a training perspective but for nearly all of us it is not about being optimal: It is about having fun and keeping a functional body. That needs to come first. For me, GB is the way to go. For you it may not be.

As I agree for the most of the text you write here Slizz, I cant with this

Part of me feels like CC should stand for Complete Crap

Training different strength modalities and determine goals first, doesnt start nor end with gymnastics wods.Its not fair to compare CC vs BTGB + support from elite gymnastic Coach with lots of evolved information from the date that book start.

This is my opinion and lets start comparing only the books . BTGB is the best book about gymnastic exercises and progressions. Period. But if we look at the beginner non gymnast who jump to it, planche, FL, BL, the most likely injuries will come. The book lacks preparation and information for someone who are not gymnast, and there are lots of confusion when it comes to programming. Armed with information you have now from this site, seminars, and if you look back to book, there are holes in it, agree ? Never Gymless is the best all around bodyweight book with strong emphasis on preparation for fighting. Thats different from BTGB, they not share the same goals. CC on the other hand have strong focus on some of the challenging exercises that most fitness enthusiast around the world try to accomplish, and give lots of progression for it, some examples for programming, but it is very motivated for beginners to start, and jump right into it, no matter earlier experience. Even for advanced some progression steps from book will help you no matter what goals in strength you have. Beside good progression steps and information for all exerices no matter on what step you decide to stop, I found that bridging progression is excellent, not only for spinal cord, but hamstrings as well. This progression help me a lot to increase flexibility and strength for bridge wall walks, because flexibility for bridge is my weak spot. So for me there is a good information in all three books for enthusiast for lifetime dedication.

There is a large thread on CC that i started when it first came out.

Slizz presents very clearly why he has his opinion. And any thinking person will have the same hesitation in fully endorsing the book understanding that. I still think its a great starting point, but its a very stylized and idealistic presentation. I'm glad Paul wrote an amendment based on all the controversy the book caused and it made me comfortable with the book again, though i'm not 100% convinced that the One Hand Handstand Pushup was really perfumed as stated. Which points to the biggest flaw, there is no one who really stands behind the program, all there is is a book.

We have Coach Sommer, Ross Enamait is available to those who follow his method etc.

On a realistic note, no book will ever be perfect or complete. We need at least the occasional interaction with real people to keep us on track, and to flesh out the knowledge that books can only hint at.

Coach is aware of the holes in BtGB which is why he's working on an amended second edition.

For certain a persons program of choice will depend greatly on their goals, or simply what they like best. That is fine. I like the gymnastics bias here, but in no way believe everyone has to do it. I really get a big kick out of seeing what all kinds of people do, but since there is only so much time in a day, it's important to have so goals and stick to particular method to meet them.

When it comes to CC, many people as a downside talk only about the last step for one arm hspu. Maybe it is idealized, we dont know yet, but all 9 steps out of 10 for one arm hspu are doable and there are people who accomplish that step but obviously they need time to build reps on it.

Lekman said:

As I agree for the most of the text you write here Slizz, I cant with this

Part of me feels like CC should stand for Complete Crap

Training different strength modalities and determine goals first, doesnt start nor end with gymnastics wods.Its not fair to compare CC vs BTGB + support from elite gymnastic Coach with lots of evolved information from the date that book start.

This is my opinion and lets start comparing only the books . BTGB is the best book about gymnastic exercises and progressions. Period. But if we look at the beginner non gymnast who jump to it, planche, FL, BL, the most likely injuries will come. The book lacks preparation and information for someone who are not gymnast, and there are lots of confusion when it comes to programming. Armed with information you have now from this site, seminars, and if you look back to book, there are holes in it, agree ? Never Gymless is the best all around bodyweight book with strong emphasis on preparation for fighting. Thats different from BTGB, they not share the same goals. CC on the other hand have strong focus on some of the challenging exercises that most fitness enthusiast around the world try to accomplish, and give lots of progression for it, some examples for programming, but it is very motivated for beginners to start, and jump right into it, no matter earlier experience. Even for advanced some progression steps from book will help you no matter what goals in strength you have. Beside good progression steps and information for all exerices no matter on what step you decide to stop, I found that bridging progression is excellent, not only for spinal cord, but hamstrings as well. This progression help me a lot to increase flexibility and strength for bridge wall walks, because flexibility for bridge is my weak spot. So for me there is a good information in all three books for enthusiast for lifetime dedication.

I'd like to edit in that my opinion has nothing to do with different methodologies. I think "Paul" gave a great progression for OAC, OAP, and SLS. Bridge was pretty good and the first half of the HSPU stuff is all right but overall that wasn't terrible except for when he started bs-ing about the progressions towards one arm work. As for my opinion, it is based on the fact that the book was marketed as some sort of all around fitness guru guide and it is a far, far cry. If you want strength, this is the best place on the net. If you want extreme endurance, Ross Enamait has an edge there. He requires a bit more equipment but many people like that. Judging THAT sort of thing is truly just a matter of a) opinion and b) what you personally enjoy. There's no right or wrong there, but Dragondoor intentionally used CC to mislead. Don't even try to say they didn't, they have extremely intelligent people in charge. They know exactly what they are doing. Their consumers' money is more important to them than the quality of their products. I know they have a lot of good stuff, and I like a lot of it, but they showed themselves in the open for who they are. I do not like that kind of business and I have no problem saying so. It is "Paul's" fault for not checking his information, Jim Bathurst's fault for letting himself get involved with a production that he CLEARLY had to know there were basic flaws with since he knows plenty about gymnastic and non-Gymnastic Strength Training™ going in, and Dragondoor's fault for seizing on the clearly viral popularity a prison conditioning book would generate without having the integrity to insist that everything was on the up and up. They are a leader in the fitness publishing industry and as such they have ASSUMED the responsibility, by claiming to be the best, to actually ACT and PRODUCE like the best. To me that is more or less sacrilege, I mean if you're that kind of entity then I don't want anything to do with you and I will actively try to make sure that people know what to look out for from you.

I don't blame you for your opinion, I have simply been rubbed the wrong way by CC. Like I said, the HSPU and the core stuff ( If I didn't mention core someone else did) are ridiculous, I mean you can't tell someone to do a movement that has never been witnessed before. We've even seen a monk do a two finger handstand press, so I find it hard to believe that if THAT is possible and on film that a OAHSPU is not on film if it is possible. I have seen the circus guys kip into them, which is totally insane by itself, but a slow controlled movement? Riiiiiight. As for the core stuff, it's all really easy.

Also, this business of "I'm some guy who won't even show his body much less his face (this I could understand somewhat), but says 'Trust me dude! I've been there!' " Is completely ridiculous. That's pure marketing, and we have no idea if whoever the ghostwriter is has ever even done a push up. That, all by itself, pisses me off. Combined with complete misinformation regarding planches and other gymnastic work, the difficulty of various movements in the addendum sections and a nearly complete disregard for horizontal pulling I just can't call it a good book. I don't expect anyone else to share that opinion or agree with it.

The best things about the book are a very intelligent breakdown of introductory steps to each movement. I thought that was brilliantly executed and extremely smart. I have taken a few ideas on how to do certain things from that book, like using balls to roll for assistance and things like that. I also absolutely agree that the bridge work is fantastic and Coach frequently says that if there are only two positions you were going to work on they should be pike and bridge. Bridging and movements into and out of a bridge are considered more of a mobility skill than a strength skill, which is both true and why they are not in BtGB. That will almost certainly be covered in other volumes but we have a ton of information here on bridging for those who want to know, and the seminars tend to go over this in detail. However, I can definitely see how and why you enjoy the fact that CC has the bridging progressions. They are really quite vital and lots of fun to boot!

You have more concern about reliability of source, compare to information in book itself, so I understand your anger, but that’s completely unnecessary. I don’t care who is Paul Wade, who is and what the Dragoon door do, their politics, marketing etc. I read the book like other books, and bring some conclusion. We almost have identical conclusions about information in the book, and I really don’t care about one arm handstand pushups. I cant throw away complete book because there is dilemma is it possible to do the last step or not. I struggle with two arms. It is easy to include logic here and see what is good in the book and what is problematic. I adopt good information that can help me in my training and reject unnecessary. The CC book is not perfect as many are not, but the information inside is good. I know excellent that nothing compares to real stuff, elite Coach, gymnastics school, seminars, if someone want to learn something, so I am very impatient for new books from Coach Sommer, and all information I have about gymnastics is from this site. I try wods, but my time for recover is limited at the moment, so I must balanced to provide progression, and strict plan with 100 effort is not optimal at the moment for me. Anyway thank you for your answer. It is my birthday today, 40 aaa...(cant believe it).but I am motivated for gymnastics and training like for karate when I have 14. Lucky for me and thanks to my genetics I am still very fast compare to boys age from 17-24 years in karate club. I have just started.

I wanted to compliment the board on the amazing discussion...no rants, no attacks and stated articulately.

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. First, I think Lekman helped provide the perspective I was seeking. Start with the progressions in Convicting Conditioning and when I'm to the point I'm able to perform some of the more advanced levels of each exercise, then step up to Coach Sommer's book. The base will be there, as simply doing pushups & chins is a good start but there's more to learn. At this stage, I am the first to admit years of pulldowns did not prep me for chins. Bench presses did not prepare me for planches.

2. Not really sure about the flaws in CC? People I know who have the book haven't really mentioned there being any...there are disagreements on some of the claims regarding weights but of course it comes from people like me who spent the last 20 or more years with barbells, machines, etc. Haven't read the book cover to cover, so, I don't know what they don't like. But as for who Paul Wade is or isn't, while checking around on the various BW books, saw a video on You Tube* by a strength coach who said he didn't care if it was Wade or Pavel, he felt the book stood on its own merits. Which, if the book provides a good progression or base for people to build up to more advanced programs like Sommers (especially for people like me starting all over), it could be a good thing.

*

3. Ross' Never Gymless is a great book, but, let me share a "beginner's" perspective (having read the book): I think before getting into his book, you need to pull together the proper base. Especially for folks like me and my peers. Create the base, learn the feel of the movement and the strength/form needed to execute proper chins, pushups and once you get that pulled together, then Ross' book would be one option. Coach Sommer's book would be another if you're seeking to take your strength levels to the next level. One of my friends got P90X and after years in a gym, wanted to switch it up as well as drop the membership and head down that path. He ended up getting hurt and he feels it is because he didn't make the transition and lay down the base, first. Admitted it was his fault. But based on what I saw in CC and Lekman's description, the progressions will help you built that base. I may be wrong, as this is new turf, but, I don't think I'm too far off.

BTW, while in the bookstore I saw CC / Wade were in an MMA magazine article. So, don't think Ross' book is the only program being used by fighters these days?

I do appreciate the feedback and will watch for any additional feedback. And Mr. Lekman, thanks again. But, getting to the next level of Mr. Slizzardman is truly a worthy goal.

Montanajack, thank you for your kind words, I have respect for every member on this forum, and carefully read and listen what any of them try to say. English is not my language so every time I try to express myself correct.

I agree with you. We all want planche, Front lever, Back lever, etc. No doubt about that. Many times I carefully read the Slizzardman posts specially about preparation, and the rest. Lucky for all of us here, he want to share what he learn, and its never hard for him to answer. But every one of us are unique. Unfortunately, the rules that apply fast to kids from 5 to 10 years of age in gymnastics, for others especially after 30, applies very slowly. Who have flexibility enough, lucky for him, every thing comes much smoother, others must go the harder way, and that’s the raw strength through gymnastics moves, and working very smart to increase flexibility. When I first saw Coach Sommer text about planche and FL, I was obsessed. As a kid of 13 years of age, I can easily do 15 pullups, and 10 pullovers. So back to childhood. I jump right into it. But I was not ready. My active serious karate training was over, I have a pause for 3 years, and it is not the same preparation. No problem for me to kick a man of 2m with a leg into the head, but full pike position, touching the ground with flat hands, bridge wall walks ? No way. So injuries in hamstrings and shoulders comes, despite I strictly follow a progression. I order almost immediately Jordan Jovtchev warm ups and preparation, read from this site, etc. But not a student any more with much of free time. Busy schedule, family, need more. I land to the ground, and go to basics. Then CC comes in to play, Less time for preparation, and motivated again. Perfect for busy man. I mix basics moves with some of the gymnastics moves like hollow hold, 360 tuck pulls, HLL, and HS, Skin the cat. I adopt what I like and found useful from CC. I also take a care to have a body balance. No injuries at all with less time. Despite I am not working on them, Front lever comes to straddle, back lever also, freestanding HS without wall for 30 sec. I will put it as a primary work when some of the circumstances changes in my job, but when that times comes I will be ready to jump to next level.

About Ross book, like I said before, Never Gymless is the best all around book in general about bodyweight work (strength, conditioning) and have a part about nutrition. The book is very motivated, full of adrenalin and action with very intensive interval work for conditioning, but also have a part for strength, different exercises for max, endurance and explosive work from easiest to harder, but not so detailed as CC with progressions. General program at the end is very intense and its not for beginners. I agree with you here. Ross loves interval work, but If we talk only about conditioning I found that Joel Jamieson have much better book no matter do you prepare for MMA or want to be just cardio fit. After you read Joel`s book, you will exactly know what conditioning mean, where to start, what is the purpose of different methods and how to apply it for your goals.

Through my story I hope I help you to find your way and philosophy, whatever skill you want to master. Gymnastics is a great journey, and I be glad to hear of your success. Good luck !

No one mention the joint strength benefits that gymnastics training brings about that practically no "traditional" calisthenic exercise brings about.

I have not read Joel's books yet but based on what I have seen he has a very practical approach that works well. I think he has a very good understanding of what he is doing.

Ross's stuff is definitely NOT the only program fighters use! Fighting is an interesting sport, very unique performance parameters compared to everything else due to the contact elements. You need to train your body to TRANSMIT force effectively into another person's body in an dynamic environment, not just generate it effectively. That is a lot of fun to work on.

I agree that if something works, the source is not important. Like I said, I think CC has a lot of good ideas for beginning progressions and emphasizes their importance. To me that is the greatest value of the book. It is far, far, far from what a fighter needs but OAC, OAP, and SLS are very important abilities to have as a fighter. So is a proper XR support for 60s, heavy serratus push ups, HSPU, reverse MU, stall bar HLL, hollow hold, advanced side planks, external rotator strength and overall shoulder stability, and balance training. Stack on variable intensity work and you have the core of a powerful fighter who is mobile and able to transmit forces effectively.