I want LATS - Front Lever vs Pull Ups wide grip

I want wide lats so will it happen by the time I complete my front lever training (very hard), or should I just stick to wide grip pull ups?

Why does everything have to be either/or?

RatioFitness! Why do you love one-line responses so much! And why did you answer a question with a question!? Who are you, the Oracle from The Matrix?

Chingyvang, the FL is a static position and pull-ups are a dynamic movement. I've read that while static positions reap great strength gains, matching them with a similar dynamic movement reaps a LOT more. Try combining them!

Patrick Smith said:

RatioFitness! Why do you love one-line responses so much! And why did you answer a question with a question!? Who are you, the Oracle from The Matrix?

Chingyvang, the FL is a static position and pull-ups are a dynamic movement. I've read that while static positions reap great strength gains, matching them with a similar dynamic movement reaps a LOT more. Try combining them!

I care less about strength gains, I just want size and width in my lats. Though I can combine both, I'm afraid of over training because the last time I attempted the front lever tuck, my shoulders and backneeded a weeks rest

I think if you're at the stage where doing a FL tuck makes you need to rest for a week then you should be taking it slow and just be patient. Results will come with consistent practice. But hypertrophy is caused by time under tension and you can do a lot more time with bent arm work since it doesn't affect your joints as much. So i'd say the pull ups would be better for size

element3904 said:

I think if you're at the stage where doing a FL tuck makes you need to rest for a week then you should be taking it slow and just be patient. Results will come with consistent practice. But hypertrophy is caused by time under tension and you can do a lot more time with bent arm work since it doesn't affect your joints as much. So i'd say the pull ups would be better for size

^ ok thanks I'll stick to pull ups til I'm strong enough

HAHAHA I like Ratio's response though!

It's true, doing both will help more but you have to focus on whichever is appropriate for you. At first you will have more luck with the wide chins, and truthfully you should be adding weight slowly as you get to 8-10 reps to force a drop back down to 5 solid reps.

It sounds like for now you need to be working foot supported rows and wide grip pull ups.

chingyvang said:

I care less about strength gains, I just want size and width in my lats. Though I can combine both, I'm afraid of over training because the last time I attempted the front lever tuck, my shoulders and backneeded a weeks rest

I see. Well, it's still relevant I think.

Both are fantastic exercises and will stimulate muscle growth. If the tucked front lever is wrecking your body currently, then leaving it alone for now and picking it back up once you increase your general strength seems best to me. Pull-ups have a lot of carryover to the front lever as well, so after you have a strong weighted pull-up you should find that front lever training is much easier. There really is something to be said for combining the exercises, though. I've gone from +90 lbs on my weighted pull-ups to +170 lbs in the past 6 months since starting front lever training; a lot faster growth rate than when I was doing only pull-ups.

Aurele said:

Both are fantastic exercises and will stimulate muscle growth. If the tucked front lever is wrecking your body currently, then leaving it alone for now and picking it back up once you increase your general strength seems best to me. Pull-ups have a lot of carryover to the front lever as well, so after you have a strong weighted pull-up you should find that front lever training is much easier. There really is something to be said for combining the exercises, though. I've gone from +90 lbs on my weighted pull-ups to +170 lbs in the past 6 months since starting front lever training; a lot faster growth rate than when I was doing only pull-ups.

Those are some amazing weighted numbers!

I believe wide grip pullups (ironically perhaps) work the center back musles more than the lats.

The force lines are angled inwards more, rather than downward. I believe that medium width grip will actually hit

the lats more.

FutureisNow said:

Aurele said:

Both are fantastic exercises and will stimulate muscle growth. If the tucked front lever is wrecking your body currently, then leaving it alone for now and picking it back up once you increase your general strength seems best to me. Pull-ups have a lot of carryover to the front lever as well, so after you have a strong weighted pull-up you should find that front lever training is much easier. There really is something to be said for combining the exercises, though. I've gone from +90 lbs on my weighted pull-ups to +170 lbs in the past 6 months since starting front lever training; a lot faster growth rate than when I was doing only pull-ups.

Those are some amazing weighted numbers!

I believe wide grip pullups (ironically perhaps) work the center back musles more than the lats.

The force lines are angled inwards more, rather than downward. I believe that medium width grip will actually hit

the lats more.

The lats run from a little below the middle of your shoulder blades all the way down your back to your hip bones and out to the side of the posterior iliac crest. They are huge. Different grips will emphasize different sets of fibers. The close grips, if done properly, will emphasize the long fibers on the outside and the wider you go the more the fibers in the middle lads will get hit. That's why wide grip pull ups are popular for lat development, that's the part people have trouble with usually. For FL training you need it all, so using a variety of grips is very important. I try to maintain the same strength on every grip and it works out really well. To hit the higher fibers you really need FL rows or foot supported rows (add weight with vest as necessary). Of course these also work the traps as well, as do the various pull up variations.

There is no back muscle except the lats that pulls the elbow towards the body so if the elbows are moving relative to the body in a vertical plane it is lat work, period, but the range of motion with 2x shoulder width is fairly small by comparison to shoulder with and 1.5x shoulder width. It is also a lower leverage movement so it is harder on the lats. Something of a tradeoff there.

slizzardman said:

There is no back muscle except the lats that pulls the elbow towards the body so if the elbows are moving relative to the body in a vertical plane it is lat work, period [...]

Just nitpicking here, but there's still lat's little helper, teres major It adducts and extends the shoulder, just like the lats.

If you really want to hit the lats, I would recommend hitting shoulder extension and abduction in different ranges of motion. That includes: close, regular, and wide grip chin ups and pull ups, behind the neck pull ups, front lever work, victorian work (hits the lats very hard - can be simulated by using dumbbells), overhead pull downs using resistance bands or an expander (can be seen in Ido Portal's shoulder prehab videos), band/expander shoulder adductions, as can be seen in the following video:

If your not sure what shoulder extension and adduction is and/or generally want to learn about the muscles of the body and what they do, I recommend these two sites:

http://www.getbodysmart.com/

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Articulations.html

Wow I can't thank you all enough. I've been reading also about the overrated wide grip pullups.......but I guess I'm just gonna have to try all variations and see which really gives the burn. Thanks again yalls

Teres major is a shoulder muscle, it attaches to the shoulder blade. It is not a back muscle. Back muscles attach to the posterior thoracic cage. Not to be nitpicky!

You're right though, teres major does work very similarly to the lats.

What about wide grip L-sit pull ups?

How do they compare to weighted pull ups? When I first tried them my eyes nearly popped outa my head, the ROM straightening the arm going back down. My 1RM for weighted pull ups was 40kg (6months ago- before GB training) and yet I still found wide grip pullups crazy hard at my first attempt. Anyone else find this?

Nugget said:

What about wide grip L-sit pull ups?

How do they compare to weighted pull ups? When I first tried them my eyes nearly popped outa my head, the ROM straightening the arm going back down. My 1RM for weighted pull ups was 40kg (6months ago- before GB training) and yet I still found wide grip pullups crazy hard at my first attempt. Anyone else find this?

I found wide pull-ups difficult too, no matter they are weighted or not. Yes, it's because I didn't do them at all.

Continue doing L-sit pull-ups, they are the best. Weighted L-sit pull-ups are even better. I would never do regular pull-ups again. According to Pavel Tsatsouline, the more (and intelligently) muscles are added to routines, they will increase the intensity of the contraction of the target muscles. If you will contract the glutes, abs or others when you're working upper body, the target muscles will benefit more. I found this statement to be true during my workouts. In fact, that's what gymnastics does, bringing as many muscles as possible to help the target muscles during the same exercise. The results are great strength gains and not only.

Yea, L pull ups are awesome. I haven't tried them with weight because until recently I didn't have a belt that would let me do that without destroying my junk in the process. I don't like weighted vests for pull ups. I will, however, screw around with one for the L pull ups and see what I think.

what do u mean about WIDE L-pullups? shoulder width? or 2x width than shoulder?

Shoulder width or a bit outside are normal pull ups for me. For wide L- pull ups i usually go as wide as possible, until i cant reach any further with my other hand, they seem to be the hardest and i get the most benefit from them

Its funny, doing those in a wod makes regular L pull ups soooo much easier, not to mention they look badass hehe

Nugget said:

Shoulder width or a bit outside are normal pull ups for me. For wide L- pull ups i usually go as wide as possible, until i cant reach any further with my other hand, they seem to be the hardest and i get the most benefit from them

Its funny, doing those in a wod makes regular L pull ups soooo much easier, not to mention they look badass hehe

If i go as much wide as i can, then my shoulders are popping...WHY? whats the problem? how to solve it?

This is obvious: You have to slowly get used to a progressively wider grip. Add a few inches to your grip width every 3-4 weeks and before you know it you'll be doing 2x shoulder width. That is quite wide, and there really isn't any ROM on the pull if you try and go past that.

By experience, i can tell you that my lats have so much increased over the years, and i almost never do basic pull ups such as wide pullup.

All the front lever work, so the static FL, the Fl pull up and all the FL pulls variation have built my lats.

Doing both can be better i guess, but avoid FL will be a huge mistake, because FL does not only work a lot your lats, but your chest, triceps, deltoids will become huge also !

ashita said:

By experience, i can tell you that my lats have so much increased over the years, and i almost never do basic pull ups such as wide pullup.

All the front lever work, so the static FL, the Fl pull up and all the FL pulls variation have built my lats.

Doing both can be better i guess, but avoid FL will be a huge mistake, because FL does not only work a lot your lats, but your chest, triceps, deltoids will become huge also !

Truth!

ashita said:

By experience, i can tell you that my lats have so much increased over the years, and i almost never do basic pull ups such as wide pullup.

All the front lever work, so the static FL, the Fl pull up and all the FL pulls variation have built my lats.

Doing both can be better i guess, but avoid FL will be a huge mistake, because FL does not only work a lot your lats, but your chest, triceps, deltoids will become huge also !

thanks to all. now i can finally hold a 15s FL tuck and im combining it with 3 sets of pullups. now i can definitely feel my lats burn

You're welcome, good luck and kill those lats lol 8)