Coming to GB with a very low basis of strength

Hi,

I have spent a few days reading around the forums and have a general idea where I am aiming to be but it seems most people come to this site having previously done gymnastics or weightlifting.

I am 23 and have never been athletic. I do enjoy sports but after 5 years at university, poor eating habits and no exercise regime I found myself as something of a mess. I have over the last 6 months lost about 3 stone in weight am eating a much better diet and have been running regularly as well as the mens health 'belly off' work outs. I am really pleased with my progress so far but it has only spurred me on to greater things.

My main trouble is that most of the WoDs are far beyond me: even scaling them down using BtGB. I can do around 10-12 consecutive push ups 0 pull ups 2-3 chin ups. I mean its fairly pathetic. From Anthony King's fairly helpful stickied post I think my general aim is to be able to manage:

60s plank

60s reverse plank

60s perfect hollow hold with hands over your head

60s arch hold in the superman flying position

60s Parallel Bar support.

60s chin up grip dead hang

I am furthest from the chinup hang for 60s managing only about 10s but I can do 3x30s of plank. Am I best to try and follow the WoDs and scale them down beyond what is suggested in BtGB or create a different regime and reach a decent starting level.

I guess it would be smart to also include some wrist strengthening and flexibility if I intend to move on to the full blown WoDs.

Any advice is much appreciated particularly from anyone who has had success starting from such a low base as my own.

say10 said:

Hi,

I have spent a few days reading around the forums and have a general idea where I am aiming to be but it seems most people come to this site having previously done gymnastics or weightlifting.

I am 23 and have never been athletic. I do enjoy sports but after 5 years at university, poor eating habits and no exercise regime I found myself as something of a mess. I have over the last 6 months lost about 3 stone in weight am eating a much better diet and have been running regularly as well as the mens health 'belly off' work outs. I am really pleased with my progress so far but it has only spurred me on to greater things.

My main trouble is that most of the WoDs are far beyond me: even scaling them down using BtGB. I can do around 10-12 consecutive push ups 0 pull ups 2-3 chin ups. I mean its fairly pathetic. From Anthony King's fairly helpful stickied post I think my general aim is to be able to manage:

60s plank

60s reverse plank

60s perfect hollow hold with hands over your head

60s arch hold in the superman flying position

60s Parallel Bar support.

60s chin up grip dead hang

I am furthest from the chinup hang for 60s managing only about 10s but I can do 3x30s of plank. Am I best to try and follow the WoDs and scale them down beyond what is suggested in BtGB or create a different regime and reach a decent starting level.

I guess it would be smart to also include some wrist strengthening and flexibility if I intend to move on to the full blown WoDs.

Any advice is much appreciated particularly from anyone who has had success starting from such a low base as my own.

First of all don't get discouraged 2-3 chinups and 10-12 pushups is not pathetic, everyone starts somewhere. While I personally don't have experience with starting at that level the goals that you posted look like great ones. I would, with it, include working on increasing your number of pushups as well as the chinups and once you can do 8-10 chinups switching to pullups (you should be able to do at least a couple at that point). If you can not do multiple sets of chin up, start with inverted rows or chin up holds (top position) For pushups, since you can already do 10-12, I would recommend elevating the feet to make it more difficult. Once you can 10-12 feet elevated pushups easily, I would switch to dips. Start with one stretching session per week, whole body and do the holds for multiple sets.

Hopefully someone else more familiar with the wods will come on and be able to tell you when you can start them.

I agree with you, attempting wods when all you can do is just pushups, I think wouldn't be the best approach. I do believe in pretty high entry level fitness requirements for wods.

GTG (greasing the groove) would work well for building your chin up volume. You'll find many posts on it.

work on l-sit, v-ups and HLL since the beginning and as suggested by alexx add inverted hang and rows.

push-ups and rows in 5*5 set*rep I think will help you the most. I warmly suggest you to also add deck squats and sumo squats to the mix. 2-3 complete workout a week should be enough for the first 3-4 months.

like this:

- mobility (shoulder bands, hips extensions, wrist pushups, etc)

- static hold (the six you've mentioned plus l-sit and inverted hang) -SSC

- FBE 5*5 (push ups, rows)

- core (HLL, v-ups)

- legs (deck squats, sumo squats)

while working chin ups on gtg modality will allow you the necessary gain to then alternate pull ups and dips in your fbe part of the program.

EDIT:

since it became a sticky, I re-read and found I forgot about Handstand. Those (against the wall) have to be trained since the beginning as static hold. VERY IMPORTANT.

I would prefer to see you focus on a Steady-State Cycle or working the basic FSP's (not even the levers or planche) and pull/push/core/legs.

You do not need to worry about working a combined push/pull or multiplane movements right now.

Seperate pushing and pulling into horizontal, vertical, and inverted. Here is where it gets tricky...

You need to your maxes in a lot of the movements first to figure out where you are.

At this point, I do not think you need to worry about inverted pushing or pulling. Merely doing inverted hangs and possibly wall handstand should suffice. They could be skipped altogether, especially if you work into your program some support work on parallel bars and some horizontal pullup/body rows. Still, I think you should get inverted. Start in an inverted tuck on rings or bars, even with your legs on the bars or straps and angle your wall handstand around 45 degrees off vertical/horizontal.

So basically, you need to work:

Dead hangs in pronated and supinated grip

Inverted hang

front and rear plank

front support on PB

possibly prone/plank/pushup hold on low rings...possibly

The rear plank should suffice for shoulder extension for right now but you could work skin the cats/360 pulls with your feet on the ground.

Hollow and arch hold

Pushup

Negative dead hang pullups or flex arm hangs

horizontal pullups

Shrugs in support

Hanging leg lifts in tuck position, lay on ground and simply tuck in and out if this is too difficult

Situps

Deck squats and calf heel/toe raises. Starting off with simple squats is alright if you cannot perform a deck squat. A deck squat needs some leg and abdominal strength.

And it probably wouldn't hurt to do some form of deadlift.

That's a good program BlairBob. Almost feels like a getting started sticky.

Hey guys,

Thanks alot for your assistance; I have some exams coming up so I will stick with my current regime for the next 2 weeks and then get started working out a good SSC. I thought the WoDs would be beyond me and the FSPs seem to be the holy grail for beginning so I will make these my main focus. I will come back and let you know how I get on in a couple of weeks.

I agree with almost everything Bob said, but there is something I must disagree in some part(with my n=1 experience that is). In my opinion having begun with much less strength that he has now( In fact I had none), his best option is a full downgraded WOD (with the kind of exercises Bob said). Unless he has somebody making some kind of program for him is very difficult to improve the results the WOD will allow even for a full beginner. My best improvements so far have been with the WODs.

The down side is that it is a bit more difficult the first 2 or three weeks because you have to try different variations to know your capabilities(a steeper learning curve), but once he gets the exercises he can perform for the required repetition range ( I have even used kneeling push ups) it will be pretty easy and surprisingly effective. Also if you read the WODs you can find some people like myself that post their low level WODs.

I say this because when you are a beginner you don´t know how to manage a steady state, or when to switch reps, sets , tempo or volume in a program, and this is paramount. My first year was almost lost because I didn´t know how to manage that points, I worked too close to my maximum 1rm also trying exercises too difficult for me (like multi plane as BOB said) and therefore I could´t get enough volume for fast gains.

If you are forced to downgrade the pulling or pressing exercises to be able to get to 20 or more reps that are necessary in some WODs you are making faster improvements than if you keep trying your 2 or 3 pull ups by work out.

The programing in the WOD is too good to not use it even if you have to substitute with normal calisthenics exercises IMHO. :wink:

My point is that were beginners and newbies to GB to do a proper SSC and just stick to it for a cycle, they would learn a lot of things.

Once, it develops them patience or they just fail and drop out.

They will have to test all their maxes as references points and stick out the program for preferably 12 weeks, not 8.

Afterwards, they can retest and see how much progress they made. Earlier this year, I was coming off basically a 6 week lull in activity, especially gymnastics. Sure, I walked a bit, did a few crossfit workouts but I was pretty darn inactive for the most part.

My testing from before the SSC and after had huge results. I think mainly it was my body remembering how things worked.

One thing may be that a SSC could be too much for a newbie, especially 4 days/week even when we are talking percentages of 50%.

I have to agree with BB, trying to figure everything out in the WODs all at once is very daunting for a true beginner. Better to start with a simple repeatable program and get the basics down.

I wish there were a 'standard' beginners program with progression minimums etc. I think this would make getting started a lot easier.

Of course, i'm the guy who recommended Convict Conditioning for just that reason way back when i first joined here. Now if Coach Sommer would write the program, i think we could all stand behind it.

One thing that is different for a solo trainee and Coach's athletes is that they do it all together, and Coach is giving the directions. The athletes only have to do. For a solo trainee, everything has to be figured out. What to do, how to do it, what equipment can i rig up to do it etc. Its not as simple as just a trip to the gym and having a skilled individual guide you every step of the way with equipment around that he is familiar with.

one of the difficulties for beginners or many people is their different levels of fitness and strength. thus, it makes the act of making a tailor made program for them a pain in the butt. it's also why i have gotten tired of constantly looking at the threads such as "critique my routine".

I actually just read some posts from the author of ConvictConditioning on Dragondoor. I should read more but I only remember the ToC vaguely. We'll see.

The main idea that i liked with the CC program, is a set of simple, progressive benchmarks. Beyond that, its got its own issues, i'm sure for GB purposes it would be a different program.

Of course being on DD, some of the guys turned it into a kind of cultish thing. The author's addendum helps dispel that, thankfully.

At a certain level, as a group experience, the WODs are great, but i''m with you, how many 'you don't know anything about me, but spend a few hours and fix my program' threads can any one address?

Some simple benchmarks for getting started, a pre WOD program with some simple scalability would help. For most that is going to be an important phase to go through, IMHO.

If someone know what they are doing, they also won't be posting 'fix my program' threads no matter what kind of program they follow, fixed or WOD etc.....

I mostly agree with you both, what I wanted to remark is that on your own is very difficult to make good progress once you pass 2-3 months unless you follow some kind of program. Steady state is very effective but you 'll find the same problems that you'll find with the WODs , a steeper than usuall learning curve( when compared to the usuall weightlifting rutine), beginer 50% too close to 1RM, lots of clarifications to be done, etc...

This Kind of challenge is what makes gymnastics and BTGB really appealing to me as there is always something beyond your actual capabilities( not only adding more weight to the bar... Which is not easy of course but less skill oriented,less variety). Usually people who comes here are not searching super simple workouts or solutions, in fact they go in great pains trying to create they own templates. They can manage to follow the wod if a bit more info is available ( or merely reunited in a single post)

With the WODs once you have a grasp in the way to substitute (it took me one month to me, much less than I though, and that was only an extra 5 min a day thinking how to adjust exercices, I now regret all the time I lost trying to make a program on my own without the proper knowledge), with all the benefits of the comunity Like all ready done substitutions, examples, feedback and help, a great program that takes care of volume, tempo, reps, sets, rest times, etc.. also It changes over time and evolves not like a book program that is fixed no matter how good.

CC may be a good starting or intermediate program but it doesn't take care of the static positions ( please correct me if I am wrong) or important prehab, stretching exercices like the german hang, bridge walks, wrist pushups, etc... Obviously you can read this forums and use them as part of your other program but then again you are a bit lost about programing ( wich is the most complicated thing to learn in any kind of conditioning method, learning the exercices is pretty easy compared to that)

Maybe a tutorial( merging all the info is allready scattered on the subject) for full beginers to be able to follow the WODs will be the best bet IMHO. That way is not necesary to create a new program and people will have inmediate daily feedback from the WOD forum as opossed to everybody having a different program, that as you said that is untrackable.

CC is not GB in any way, i deservedly got served on that thread!!! GB is a much more comprehensive and sophisticated program.

Like BB said, people come here at many different levels. In my work i deal with lots of beginners, so i tend to think from their point of view. That said i think some benchmarks are not bad. I don't want to set them, some basics, like hey do you have reasonable dips and pull ups. It seems like some people want to run before they walk.

An entry level program with clear objectives is going to make sure that people are ready for the WODs, or help them easily transition in.

Of course this is all ivory-tower talk, i'm not going to pretend to make that program here. Not my job, thats for the generals, i'm a private!. Even tying all the info together is something that the Coach needs to give his explicit ok for.

The one thing for sure is there are lots of these 'help with my program' threads so it would be nice to have a simple reference to start from, even if its not going to be 100% perfect.

The relevant point here is that we can only help so much on the forum, to get that kind of service is going to cost something, and one has to be willing to pay it. I'm not questioning the value of it (compared to my marriage though its a no brainer!) the point is that's what personal individual programing costs. (Of course i did confuse the point with my own personal issues, sorry.)

We can really only do so much here to help folks with that because its a big job that requires a lot of dialogue and follow up, and commitment from both parties.

Of course I just wanted to share my opinion as a super weak beginer, and how things changed once I begun with the WODs.

I really think that a good PT will save you so much time and effort that it is worth if you want high level results fast. In my case I enjoy so much learning about all this that I'll have to pay myself for all the fun!( that is if I manage to succeed!).

As a side note how much would be a month with poliquin? :shock:

It would be cheaper to take the PICP then get any personal coaching from him, if it were even possible.

I've heard so much good about PCIP that to be a great option to learn about programing. When i thought about someone else i realized for a bit more i could just do that, and have something to show for it.

I couldn't justify that price for most of us.

Mr. Brady there is a baseline of sorts already in place. Once you can do 10 reps of one FBE, you move onto the next in it's family. Same with FSP with the whole 15/60s or 30/60 requirements.

PICP sounds pretty neat. I had actually hoped to go to the level 3? when I had I was working on developing toward becoming a National gymnast in a few years so I could have a National level athlete. Not gonna happen right now unfortunately.

Blairbob said:

I couldn't justify that price for most of us.

Me either

Mr. Brady there is a baseline of sorts already in place. Once you can do 10 reps of one FBE, you move onto the next in it's family. Same with FSP with the whole 15/60s or 30/60 requirements.

You know somehow the 10 rep thing totally slipped my mind. Glad you pointed it out.

PICP sounds pretty neat. I had actually hoped to go to the level 3? when I had I was working on developing toward becoming a National gymnast in a few years so I could have a National level athlete. Not gonna happen right now unfortunately.

There are a number of guys here who have at least Level I. It seems they got a lot of good information, and they are usually some of the forums better contributors.