Chi: Is it real?

[Joseff Lea]

A few years ago I went to a karate seminar in Swansea, I can't for the life of me remember the type of karate that was being demonstrated quite similar to wado-ryu but had a bigger emphasis on fluid movement and using gravity (I think that it was an old style that was just becoming popular again), the Japanese sensai there could literally flow across the floor it was amazing.

Anyhow the sensai gave a demonstration of chi energy. Get a friend and sit on the floor so that you are kneeling on both knees, rest your hands on your thighs. Now get your friend to go in a push up position so that his hands are on your wrists. Try to lift your friend by just raising your arms up, if you can you need a heavier friend.

After you have found a friend that you cant lift focus on the point about 2 fingers width below your belly button, relax and let the "energy" come from there and just let your arms come up. You should find you can now lift your friend.

That's how I found it happened, I could lift my friend who was 200+lb and I'm not a very strong guy! Has anyone else experienced anything weird like this? Is there anything in the current model of human physiology that can explain this? Is there a similar technique that guys who can lift really heavy use?

Weird thing was I remember that for about a week afterwards I experienced no pain in my arms at all and then I out of nowhere got massive DOMS. Sorry wasn't really sure where to post this but am very curious if anyone has had any similar experiences.

[Ryan Verma]

Since chi isn't something that can be scientifically measured or proven, I'm skeptical... but there are a few things that the shaolin monks do that just defy physics, so it makes you wonder. The monk that can do a handstand on just his index fingers and the monk that can put a spear on their throat and then bend the spear without it piercing the skin are just a couple examples. The 2 finger handstand... MAYBE you can train your joints/tendons/ligaments to withstand that kind of pressure, but there is no training that will make skin hard enough to withstand the spear trick.

Who knows?

[Animalonfire]

I saw a few youtube documentaries on shaolin monks, and was under the impression that most/all of them could spear their throats, but I have no idea how to verify if they're real monks with real spears or just bald men in dressing gowns posing. I suppose the only way would be to take a swing at one of them... One documentary mentioned that chi could be followed with a heat seeking camera, not sure of the details...

I'd love to see if there are similarities between the chi stuff and instant strengthening techniques like those used by Pavel and Poliquin.

[Chris Hansen]

I've had good results from acupuncture, for what that's worth.

[Joshua Naterman]

Everyone should keep in mind that we do not know very much about the body. To dismiss things like this would be a mistake. A lot of chi meridians parallel lymph flow, and a lot of chi techniques help increase the efficiency of the nervous system. Sometimes directly and sometimes by redirecting your concentration towards a critical area that automatically redistributes force in such a way as to be much more effective. Techniques like that are used by hand balancers and martial artists alike, as well as bow hunters and who knows how many other people.

Keep in mind that we really do have a measurable, verifiable, electrical field generated by our body that is unique to each body. That is something basic that can be and has been measured in western laboratories, for those of us here who place more trust in western science. That is basically what frequency-specific microcurrent therapy is built off of.

There is a lot more to our world than we know, and a lot more to our bodies. I think that's part of what keeps life interesting.

[Rafael David]

Chi is the universal fluid, which plays the role of intermediary between spirit and matter itself, he is placed between spirit and matter, is fluid, and as raw material, in its myriad combinations susceptible to it, and under action of the spirit of producing endless variety of things, which know no more than a tiny part. This universal fluid, or primitive, or elementary, as the agent of the spirit to serve, is the principle without which the matter would remain in a perpetual state of dispersion, and there will never acquire the properties that gravity does.

The source of my knowledge about it comes from the Book of Spirits by Allan Kardec, I recommend you read, even the most skeptical, and you guys will find the TRUTH, and although most of you do not believe these words, do not worry, all the skepticism passes after the death of the flesh,when the spirit is freed from the shackles materials. Another point, science does not prove that this is true, because it proves that even the existence of the universal fluid, being more or less material, not prove where it comes from, what their source, because its source is our spirit, our soul is immaterial, therefore escapes the bounds of science, which concerns only the properties of matter.

[RatioFitness]

First post, hope I make an ok impression.

Some questions:

Is Chi supposed to be natural or supernatural? Can the concept of Chi be used to make predictions? What phenomena does Chi explain that can't be explained by reference to processes widely excepted by contemporary science? What's your opinion of the following video?

JM_qg5d1YGI

[Rafael David]

Again, the REAL Chi exists and is NATURAL, what make it supernatural is the mysticism of the human being who does not understand the nature of things defines them as being supernatural. But, if the chi can be used to hit on someone is another story and the video is clear, use reason and logic and you will see that what they do is nothing but a lie, a farce.

[Tarun Suri]

I don't know much, but I'll share a little story, a personal experience. Take what you want from it. Even I'm not sure what to make of it.

A few years ago, I really got into meditation. I would do it before I went to sleep while lying in my bed. I rarely did it sitting, since my poor posture never allowed me to be restful in that position. I always know that I'm in a deep meditation when I can feel my heartbeat pulse throughout my body. Not only do I hear each beat loudly, but I feel it vibrate throughout me.

One particular day, it seems I went beyond that sensation. The closest way I can describe the feeling was as though my body was an empty vessel, a shell of sorts. Imagine this vessel was only half filled with water. Now rock the vessel.

I felt as though there was some sort of wave (I keep thinking water) that rocked to my feet, then back up to my head, right between my eyes. Closer to my head, every time the "water" touched higher portions of my "vessel", leading all the way to my eyes, I got what felt like "goosebumps" where ever the wave was. Maybe goosebumps isn't the right word. But there was a distinct feeling of some sort of touch that wrapped around my face, that concentrated until it reached between my eyes.

Weird, huh?! At one point, I tried to control this "flow", I tried to move it to my arm or something, and when I did that, I lost it. And since then, I never got that sensation back. Not that I tried meditating too much afterwards anyways. I think that episode lasted around 30 minutes, but I'm unsure since the sense of time usually goes out the window when I meditate anyways.

I know my story is really weird. I can't claim that's chi, or if it's anything that science has trouble explaining. I just know I had this experience once, and it may have something to do with the subject of this thread. Take what you want from this.

[Rafael David]

People are embarrassed to tell this kind of thing, because the human being (mostly) forgotten that life also has a spiritual side and forgetting that went to ridicule anyone who cares about that. But in your case it MUST have been some of the chakras, it happened in the region of the head was the Ajna (third eye) or the Sahasrara (crown). AH, you should continue with the meditation and who never meditated, should begin soon.

[Joseff Lea]

Great that were getting a good friendly debate going here.

I personally do not believe that chi as a separate force exists, I think all of the phenomena we witness can be explained fully by the forces that we know of already, I'm not saying our model of physiology is complete, far from it, but I don't think that there is something so fundamental missing.

However I do think that it can be very useful to pretend that it does exist, my own experience at the top of the page being only one example, the mind is clearly very powerful (There are well documented examples of people dying because they believed that they were going to when there was nothing wrong with them, placebo effects etc). The body is also capable of unbelievable things, I believe that there are examples of normal people lifting cars off of trapped children and such, am I also right in saying that your muscles are capable of breaking your bones if you are electrocuted?

I found this video very interesting,

Also for anyone who's interested and in the UK on Easter Monday there is a Derren Brown program on channel 4 about faith healing, whilst not the same is sort of similar, which should be interesting.

[RatioFitness]

I found this video very interesting,

Yeah, that video is like the one I posted above. The question is, is it that there is no such thing as Chi or are these practitioners just hucksters giving Chi a bad name? In either case, it's a great example of the power of placebo. I don't think those people falling over are faking it.

[Joseff Lea]

I found this video very interesting,

Yeah, that video is like the one I posted above. The question is, is it that there is no such thing as Chi or are these practitioners just hucksters giving Chi a bad name? In either case, it's a great example of the power of placebo. I don't think those people falling over are faking it.

I think that they genuinely believe that there is such a thing and that is whats causing them to fall over, I don't think you could fake the spiking in heart rates intentionally. There are similar technique that some dishonest medians and faith healers use (making people speak in tongues etc) which rely on the recipient subconsciously producing the desired result.

Thing is the theory of chi cannot be disproved, however until it is proved Occam's razor tells us that we should treat it as false.

[Rafael David]

WHY IT WORKS IF ANY UFC FIGHTER LEARNED THAT? ANY UFC FIGHTER CAN CUT OFF THE HEAD OF THIS GUY! :roll:

PLEASE, I'm not asking much, just THINK, use REASON and LOGIC and you will find the ridiculous.

I love DBZ, but it's only a cartoon ... :wink:

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I believe in Chi to the extent that I think, with training, people can develop the ability to somehow influence the naturally occurring electrical currents in the human body. It's commonly known, even in Western science, that the body is electrical. Clearly, there are people doing things that are not physically possible within the limits Western science has set to itself. We must assume that they are either faking or utilizing some sort of knowledge that we can't explain. Thankfully, if we are open minded, we don't have to be limited by the self-imposed limitations of Western science. Our knowledge about the body and how much our electrical nature can be expanded is still far in its infancy.

Remember that not too long ago, the concept of electrical currents at all was preposterous.

"Do you remember how electrical currents and 'unseen waves' were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy."

-Albert Einstein

However, I certainly do not believe in the mystical type of chi. Sure, I'm a very strong believer of developing mental capacity (see Project Renaissance), but I don't believe that chi has an effect on spirituality. The line between what is spirit and what is simply brain power is blurred sometimes, but I do think it exists.

[RatioFitness]

Clearly, there are people doing things that are not physically possible within the limits Western science has set to itself. We must assume that they are either faking or utilizing some sort of knowledge that we can't explain.

Could you give some examples of things people are doing that are not possible within the limits of "western" science?

Also, I don't think there is really such a thing as "western" science. There is just science, a method of investigating the natural world. Scientists really don't have any bias against things like Chi, as discovering a new force which effects the world and can explain things which are currently unexplainable would be the dream of any scientist.

[Rafael David]

Another point, science does not prove that this is true, because it proves that even the existence of the universal fluid, being more or less material, not prove where it comes from, what their source, because its source is our spirit, our soul is immaterial, therefore escapes the bounds of science, which concerns only the properties of matter.

read it again... :roll:

[Coach Sommer]

There is a very definite difference in approach between eastern and western styles of medicine. Lately this is something that I have experienced first hand with a family member who is now being treated by a specialist in eastern medicine when their ailment had failed to be remedied through traditional western medicine treatments.

Those who are personally acquainted with me can attest that I am a hardcore pragmatist. Initially I would sit in on the consultations and internally shake my head at some of the new age metaphors which were being offered as explanations of treatment. :| However I am also an old school gentleman and would never have dreamed of offending either the family member or the friend who referred us by stating out loud my initial impressions.

Fast forward a few months and I have now noted a drastic improvement in that family member's condition. Why? That I still cannot explain. However there is no denying the substantial improvement in terms of health and daily quality of life which this family member has experienced.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Clearly, there are people doing things that are not physically possible within the limits Western science has set to itself. We must assume that they are either faking or utilizing some sort of knowledge that we can't explain.

Could you give some examples of things people are doing that are not possible within the limits of "western" science?

Also, I don't think there is really such a thing as "western" science. There is just science, a method of investigating the natural world. Scientists really don't have any bias against things like Chi, as discovering a new force which effects the world and can explain things which are currently unexplainable would be the dream of any scientist.

Shaolin monks bending spears pressed against their throats, pike press to handstand using only two fingers, things like that.

I don't mean to say that there is not one science, there is. When I say "Western Science," I mean the West's understanding of many scientific things. As I said, I don't think Chi is a "new force" or anything like that. I think it's simply an electrical systems (the human body) ability to manipulate and influence its electricity field and the electricity around it.

[Blairbob]

Quite some years ago, my martial arts instructor was going to school and studying the possibilities of proving 'ki" using kirlianhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirlian_photography photography. Interesting stuff. I probably still have some of his conjectures about it somewhere in storage.

[Cole Dano]

Scientifically speaking every thing that happens in our bodies, the nervous system in particular is mediated by the electro-magnetic force.

Modern brain research has proven that a magnetic field applied to the proper segment of the brain can cause any number of effects. I'm not sure how much of a stretch it is to believe that this could happen, however, that certainly isn't proof. The real Chinese masters tend to be quite secretive.

As a youth i had one of the aforementioned speaking in tongues experiences. I'm quite certain the preacher used some sort of pressure point technique on me, as i crumpled to the floor and found myself babbling upon awakening.

The broader concept of Chi is of 'life force'. Why is it that a small seed turns into a giant tree when the conditions are right. Why does the body heal? How can an Rembrandt learn to paint such beautiful pictures, a Gymnast do an inverted cross? All of these things seem impossible but through a simple process of nature they become possible, this process is Chi at work.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

Western science ( there is a wester science method that is aplied globally) by its own working method is limited somehow when reaching new knowleadge, because it can only judge matters based in actual and comprobable laws( by its contemporary technological capabilities) or pausible theories suported by previows laws. We all know thinks that seemed imposible to science 30-40 years ago are common work now a days but it has taken time to arrive to where we are. This case of one step at a time is very profitable at the long term ( as it is working on strong fundations) but has a drawback: it can not flow freely whenever it is possible to do so( for example the mind).

Till recently (10-20 years?) the brain has been a completly unknown part of the body related as its working as a sistem( not fisical neuronal structures but electrical activity within aka "the mind"). On the other hand oriental filosophies dont have that limitations ( they have others that will let them out of the picture eventually) they can free float around all human maters, in fact that is what they have been doing for more than 4000 years( maybe much more). They have discovered human capabilities that maybe now are begininng to be studied efectively by modern science. For example for modern medicine the nervous system is divided in simpatic and para simpatic. As some of you know far better than I do, parasimpatic sistem is ( as far as it is known) out of reach of volitional changes. But for meditating cultures is well known that master in meditation can change his body temperature, heart beat, blood flow to some parts of the body etc...

Obviowsly this was seen as tricks or self deception by normal science, but some test have been made that confirm this capabilities with scientific equipment. Is this chi flow or spiritual camps? More probably is the conscious mind taking care ( by intensive training) of some body parts that are not usually accesibles to volition.

But hundreds of years ago when a yogui reached that state had to give some kind of structure of knowleadge( based on the local culture and believes of course), to explain what he had just experimented. Some how 2000 years ago they didn't think in passing a MR or a TAC we'll never know why . So there you have chi , chakras and so on..

Now we tend to see that estructures as merely fairy tales (for others is still just plain truth) or for some hard sceptics just as means to control people and society and take profit( because they are not "scientific" at all, and is not formulated in theories or is not "mesurable"). Well in my opinion everything is mixed up, there are lots of parts that eventually will be demostrated as fantasies or hard deformation of facts( we must take in to acount that if some times it is difficult to understand the way our grand parents think , just imagine how different was the people hundreds of years ago) , but in the other hand there will be surprises about what the mind is capable of and ancient times people allready knew( although they didn't have a "scientific theory).

There is a clear example of all this with placebo effect. There are medicines where placebo effect is unexistant ( a diabetic can not be administered with a placebo as he surely will have serious problems no matter how hard he believes he still needs insulin "or" Robb Wolf ), in the other hand depression and pain medicines in double blind tests are very close to placebo effect results. Some of them so close ( I am not talking about hard narcotics but mild antidepressents) that is cheaper and has less side effects taking a placebo for almost the same results. Also the oposite can be true , a MD friend of mind has treated a fibromialgic woman with sedatives suitable for heart surgery and she still said she was sufering pain.

After all a placebo works because the person thinks is having the solution, and consecuently should feel better . Maybe some oriental medicine technics are "just" for controlling parts of our body that usually are out of conscient control.

Just my 2 cents

pd. Please forgive my tipos as I am with my Iphone , I'll correct them later.

[Tarun Suri]

Omegant, your post reminds me of "integrated systems". In this case attempting to leverage the advantages of each system. Perhaps eastern medicine can be seen more as experimental, dare I say creative (by western standards) philosophies, which then western medicine can try to prove true or false. However, I think I'm being a little naive to think how simple this system can be.

And I question something about a meditative "master" ability to control his or her para-sympathetic nervous system. Lower your body temperature and heart rate can be a by product of focusing on relaxing, which will release certain hormones that then affect those aspects of the human body. Now, can this "master" also raise his body temperature and heart rate? Now if the solution to this is manipulating your breath to create violent inhales and exhales, then I don't see that as being very different from what I described earlier with my hormones comment. Anyone can relax themselves and or excite themselves. Is that then a manipulation of ones para-sympathetic nervous system? Or is it to say that everyone has this ability, and masters are simply more adept at it, similar to how a handbalancer, with years of practice, can refine his or her skill?

PS: Mikael, the comment about my third eye chakra is pretty cool. From what little I knew about chakras, isn't the third eye one the very last, or the before last one, that can be "accessed"? I thought it was a linear progress to activate first the one in your "dan-tian" (sp?) and working your way upwards. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Joshua Naterman]

Havoc: The ability of the body to upregulate or downregulate core temperature prior to the application of physical or environmental stimuli has been documented. Specific incidences have even given rise to specific names, like anticipatory hyperthermia or something. It has been demonstrated in a professional arctic swimmer that their core temperature goes up to 108 F (that is NOT a typo) when he prepares himself to jump into the cold water to start swimming. This is BEFORE he is in the water, and does not occur until he starts to prepare.

Just as many people lack many abilities that others have, it is often due to lack of exposure to the required elements. What I mean, basically, is that we don't practice these things. We could make the claim that it's impossible to mentally regulate your sense of balance to the point where you can do flips on a tight rope or jump onto a swiss ball without falling, but those abilities, which seem to be far outside of what should be possible, are simply a good demonstration of what can be accomplished with a LOT of practice. Monks have been studied in laboratories and shown themselves able to slow their heartrates to almost nothing for up to 10 seconds. They have intentionally raised their skin temperature above 100 degrees F to facilitate drying of wet sheets, as is their practice on mountaintops in Nepal.

What we believe to be out of our control is not necessarily. When I was younger I mastered the ability to send out rushes of endorphins whenever I wanted. It isn't healthy to do too much, but it can be done. We have the ability to trigger adrenaline rushes JUST by vividly imagining a dangerous enough scenario. Those are supposedly out of our control. You CAN learn quite a number of things, and there are a lot of visualization techniques that are designed to help people learn these skills.

It is a mistake to think that the visualization method(s) used is any kind of realistic representation of what is actually happening, because it most likely is not. It's no different than telling someone to pretend that there's a 2x4 tied to their spine when doing push ups. A strong enough visualization will radically enhance their ability to keep a straight back, but there's nothing tied there. There is no wood. Sometimes that's more effective than telling someone to flex their psoas and glutes while hollowing the chest slightly. The same basic concept holds true for nearly everything that has been discussed in this thread. We even use similar training techniques for learning to shoot basketballs more accurately. Just because a description does not describe what is truly going on behind the scenes does not mean it can not lead you to the desired goal. Application is not always the same as understanding and does not always require it. Application simply requires intelligible guidance that a given person can understand and use.

This really is a great discussion!

Coach's story cracks me up, I remember how he rolled his eyes when we were talking about Poliquin and how he was looking into Eastern medicine for further sport performance enhancements! Coach really is a powerful skeptic as well as a true gentleman. That must have been quite the strange experience!

[Aaron Griffin]

It's also worth noting that Eastern and Western medicine have the same success/failure rates. On this scale, that means that either BOTH work, or NEITHER work.