Question on Conflicting FSP Progression Information

I need some guidance to help understand some conflicting information I have found in BtGB and an article from Coach Sommer relating to the correct way to structure a FSP progression program. In the below article, Coach Sommer provides a great progression for mastering the Planche and Front Lever.

http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:building-an-olympic-body&catid=2:articles&Itemid=3

In the article he explains to continue with each progression until you are able to hold the FSP for 60 seconds, and then (and only then) move on to the next progression.

However, after just finishing BtGB, I collected the below information from the Static Strength Training section in Chapter 10.

FSP Exercise Guidelines:

- Start with a progression that you can hold for less than 15 seconds.

- To determine the per set hold time, take current max hold time and divide by 2.

- To determine the number of sets, divide 60 by the result of the previous step.

- Never perform a set longer than the per set hold time until end of the 8-12 week cycle.

- At the end of one cycle, if the new max hold time if greater than 15 seconds then move on to more difficult variation (assuming you can hold the new variation for at least 3-5 seconds).

The seemingly conflicting information here is that BtGB says that once you reach a max hold time of at least 15 seconds then you should move on to a more difficult variation and start the steady state cycle over again, while the article says that a max hold time of 60 seconds should first be reached before moving on.

Both approaches seem like they have value and lead to the same end goal. I am just curious the reason one would follow one approach versus the other and want to hear feedback from others which approach has had the most success.

Thanks.

build a 60s max on everything until you reach a 60s flat tuck for FL, BL and PL. 60s L sit, 60s one hand center Straddle L, and 60s low middle split hold I believe. You need to accomplish that before you move on to the harder variations.

When you reach those benchmarks you need a 15s or better perfect straddle to train full lay in FL, BL and PL.

Thanks for the clarification slizzardman. With your feedback, I have redesigned my FSP program so that I can build a good foundation and master the basic variations that you mentioned for a max hold time of 60s.

slizzardman said:

build a 60s max on everything until you reach a 60s flat tuck for FL, BL and PL. 60s L sit, 60s one hand center Straddle L, and 60s low middle split hold I believe. You need to accomplish that before you move on to the harder variations.

When you reach those benchmarks you need a 15s or better perfect straddle to train full lay in FL, BL and PL.

What about the "half lays" in between advanced tuck and straddles...?

Honestly, unless you're really flexible, the half lay is just as hard as the straddle. I wouldn't even consider it part of the progressions unless you've got some gymnastic or dancing background that has trained you to almost have the splits or something.

rmandawg1 said:

Honestly, unless you're really flexible, the half lay is just as hard as the straddle. I wouldn't even consider it part of the progressions unless you've got some gymnastic or dancing background that has trained you to almost have the splits or something.

Wait wait... I'm talking about straight body from shoulder to knee with a 90 degree bend at the knees. Isn't this "half lay" in the book?

EDIT: Ok two things. 1) I was correct, and the book calls that a half lay. 2) It's *after* the straddle? I can do neither, but I assumed a straddle would be harder than the half lay. Huh!

Straddle is kind of a tricky thing. Many of us, including myself, have found working one leg tucked and one leg extended to be very helpful. I sort of slowly extended out into a bent straddle, personally, and from there every few weeks I straightened my legs just a little. When you aren't very flexible the straddle is hard because your body is longer. If you can hold the splits near 180 degrees then a straddle is basically not any harder than an advanced tuck. The closer together your legs are the longer your body is, which means you have less leverage, which means your muscles have to work harder.

Slizzardman's method works well for progression from flat tuck to straddle to full lay.

I think the book places the progressions in this order - straddle, half lay, full lay. As mentioned, the straddle is definitely easier if you're flexible, but for the majority of us, it's just as difficult/easy as the half lay. Therefore, the progression method illustrated by Slizzardman is one way of progressing, and I'll probably use it on my front lever after I have a more solid single leg hold.

rmandawg1 said:

Slizzardman's method works well for progression from flat tuck to straddle to full lay.

I think the book places the progressions in this order - straddle, half lay, full lay. As mentioned, the straddle is definitely easier if you're flexible, but for the majority of us, it's just as difficult/easy as the half lay. Therefore, the progression method illustrated by Slizzardman is one way of progressing, and I'll probably use it on my front lever after I have a more solid single leg hold.

I can currently hold a flat tuck for a few seconds (5? 10?), and feel like it would be easier to slowly step down by descending the knees a notch each time to get to the half lay. That's probably why I think the half lay would be easier than a straddle

Hmm, that technique might work too. I'm kind of curious about it, so I'll give it a quick try tonight in the gym tonight. All I know for sure is that when I was working on my back lever, after I had the straddle down for a 30s+ hold, I decided to start working on half lay and didn't find any significant increase in difficulty so I went straight to full lay.

However, if you have any kind of science/physics background, you can do the math and prove to yourself that physically, the half lay is harder than a straddle where your legs are open to 180 degrees. I don't exactly know at what angle the difficulty of the straddle equals the difficulty of the half lay (depends on leg mass too), but as a fairly inflexible guy (roughly 90 degree angle between my legs), the difficulty of the half lay and straddle are pretty comparable. This is true for both the front and back lever for me. My straddle FL is just as weak as my half lay FL.

That's a good point, it really does depend on how strong your straddle is.

Oddly, i have a decent straddle, but i have also been doing Phrak's approach, mostly because it seems a more naturally way out of the tuck. I suppose working both would be the best of both worlds.