Help fix my pike!

Basically, I struggle getting slightly past a 90 degree bend in any sort of forward bend / sit-and-reach stretches. Straddle rotations are miserable.

I feel like both of these are low back issues. Hamstring and calf stretches are generally fine - I can perform a flat footed downward dog with little issue. But whenever I forward bend, I look like this guy:

(Note: interestingly enough this pic is from a stretching site)

How do I fix this?

This is a hamstring issue and perhaps a hip flexion issue. It has nothing to do with your lower back other than its contribution to hip flexion.

It does take quite a bit of patience to work on, so don't rush it but do work on it OFTEN.

From the example picture you show, to push the forward bend will only go into the lower back. There is a routine i give to students which is a bit lengthy to describe but here is the key bit.

If you were to take the example position and put hands on a wall, table or chair and flatten the back, then its possible to access the hips. Its a similar movement to a kettlebell swing or deadlift, keep the posterior high but scootch it back from the pubic bone.

At the same time spread your sitbones. This will get you into your hip flexors.

I have most of my tight male students do at least 75% of their forward bends with a flat back until they get past 90 degrees.

There are some other tricks, i really do intend to make some sort of basic forward bend video, please feel free to ride me on this till i get it done.

Mr Brady said:

I have most of my tight male students do at least 75% of their forward bends with a flat back until they get past 90 degrees.

So basically "Good Morning" then (minus the weights)?

Assuming this is actually a hamstring issue, how often should I focus on my hamstrings? I currently perform a short stretching session (full body, yoga based) every night, and one long session per week focusing on active flexbility and shoulder, hip, and split work

I can see that this is something that you want to achieve, its good you can do a little everyday, downdog with hands on a wall, chairs, etc anything to get into your hips, if you are doing yoga poses, trikonasana is another good one to start with and standing single leg lift, both active and passive, placing the foot on a wall or chair.

The important thing is to get most of the work in your hips turning and not in your low back.

At least two longer sessions a week in addition will really help, at least that's how it was for me, i did almost every day for a quite long time. I'm almost 50 now and still have no great difficulty in doing splits etc but it was a commitment, however it was worth it as i found the work to also give a great sense of well being, and inner focus.

There are some other tricks, i really do intend to make some sort of basic forward bend video, please feel free to ride me on this till i get it done.

Make the video!

lol!

Hi

I don't want to be a pain i have to disagree Mr Brady but a pike stretch is not entirely a hamstring stretch. Actually that is why the Sit and reach test (which a common hamstring stretch test) is not actually a good measure, because spinal musculature (Iliocastalis, Longissimus, & Spinalis muscles spinal erectors) are all involved.Hence why when you arch the back and lean forward the hamstrings are engaged much more.

This is a hamstring issue and perhaps a hip flexion issue.

Given that you can do flat footed downward dog, i would say that the issue is largely a spinal erector muscle flexibility. Does doing a sit and reach stretch, (especially if you are pushed?) does it tire out your back? I don't understand how hip flexors (quads, illio-psoas, and a few others smaller ones) are at all responsible.?

Personally if i were you phrak , i would do the following

Stand on a box/elevated surface (toes on edge) and perform the pike stretch but holding onto a weight. You should perform multiple repetitions for the longest possible (time allowable) duration.. For example if you have 3 min to do this stretch, i would do 3 sets of 1 min, rather the 3min. The added weight will help stretch your erector spinalis muscles and help with the hamstrings. It targets the position specifically. Not sure if i have to remind is learn to relax, go with the weight, and don't fight it.

Also you can perform a hanging pike stretch from a bar example. If you are not able to do both legs at once you can stretch one at a time until you can hang in a tight pike.. But this stretch will kill the hamstrings. Be carefully with not over doing it (use a weight that helps get you lower and stretches you but does not stress your lower back to much). Be careful

Hope that helps.

It might be worth noting that when doing a flat-backed forward bend, as suggested, I cannot hit the fabled 90 degree mark. I've been working on that since it was suggested. I wanted to do a test, and attempt to improve that stretch, then see if my seated pike improved at all.

Let us know how it goes

I think I have to disagree with Valentin on this one and support Mr. Brady, although I also don't see how this is a hip flexion issue. From Looking at the picture he posted, it looks clear to me that he is unable to rotate his hips much at all, that hip rotation which is the most important part of getting deeper into a pike stretch is entirely dependent on hamstring flexibility.

You're definitely right that a sit and reach test isn't the greatest way to asses hamstring flexibility, but that is because it's so easy to cheat pike flexibility by forcing the stretch into your lowerback, not because being in a position with a very high degree of lower back flexion is the ideal pike position to hold.

Weighted pike stretches are great, i know that Coach Sommer reccomends them quite strongly, but I don't think they are the best option when your pike is at the point that Phrak's is because they'll put a ton of stress onto his lower back while he's trying to relax into a very compromised position.

I think it will be more effective and probably safer to keep working pike flexibility with a flat back until you are able to get past 90 degrees like Mr. Brady said

Hi Marlon

I have to say that i also have to disagree politely haha for several reasons

1- The person in the picture is not phrak, hence it should not be used for any sort of assessment

2- A proper hamstring stretch requires that the feet are aligned without any hip rotation. external Hip rotation helps to take away some of the stretch of the hamstrings and places it on the hip external antagonist muscles (the Gluteus minimus muscle, Gluteus medius ). Thus in this case if phrak were to turn his feet out (external rotation of the hips) he may get a tad lower (depending on gluteal flexibility however it will be quite likely that this will happen at the expense of bending of the knees, which further shows lack of hamstring flexibility and errectors. This i feel goes against your statements

it looks clear to me that he is unable to rotate his hips much at all, that hip rotation which is the most important part of getting deeper into a pike stretch is entirely dependent on hamstring flexibility.

3- I didn't say that phrak doesn't need to stretch the hamstrings, i just said that if he wants to get past the 90deg. No matter how much hamstrings he stretches, unless the flexibility in the errector muscles is equally improved he won't get much further then 90.

4- Again i humbly disagree with

a sit and reach test isn't the greatest way to asses hamstring flexibility, but that is because it's so easy to cheat pike flexibility by forcing the stretch into your lowerback, not because being in a position with a very high degree of lower back flexion is the ideal pike position to hold.

The sit and reach test protocol does not specify, that the testing subject must keep a flat back, Actually it clearly shows it encourages a round back to test and measure lower back flexibility and hamstring flexibility. The bad thing about the test is that it does not clearly differentiate the imbalance between the 2 groups of muscles measured. A large degree of lower back flexibility IS a must for a DEEP pike

Notice that in this photo, this person, has a large portion of her spine behind her hips, not even above. This clearly shows that along with her hamstrings her errectors are far to tight. This imbalance in itsself is a large cause of lower back injury.

I do agree that there must be caution used with weighted pike stretches (hence why i mentioned it also), however due to the tightness of his errectors there is the likely fact that their resistance is greater then that of the passive effect of gravity. Thus improvements will come slllllllooooowwwwww. I am not saying that he should get a 90lbs weight go for it. But even using a 10lbs (close to the body ) would be enough to provide just some additional stretch to help improve his flexibility.

I think that he should also continue to work the flat back stretch also without weight of course, because clearly both muscle groups needs further stretching.

In case it's related - when doing a lying leg raise, I cannot seem to naturally reach 90 degrees either. It's just slightly off, and any more "pull" causes my lower back to flex, which I've always assumed is unwanted. I mean, it's doable and not hard or anything, but the last 3-6 inches of ROM is all lower back curl.

Does this point to a hip issue, as Mr Brady indicated?

I've always wondered why do a weighted Pike rather than just pulling with your abs?

A weighted pike helps develop passive flexibility, a pike that you compress using your hip flexors and abdominals is an active stretch. Passive flexibility is an indicator of the potential for active flexibility can't really develop one without the other

Marlon, sometimes the hip flexors don't fire correctly and this will prevent going past a certain point from the hips, though this is normally in a deeper forward bend than Phrak's seems to be.

Actually it was a typo, i should have said extensors as some people will feel this more in the glutes, the medius in particular, though again this is more common in a deeper fwd. bend. This is part of why for many the legs turn out, as the extensors play a role in external rotation as well.

As for the picture that Valentine presents, based on Phraks description, the only responsible thing to assume is that this is his pike. Its the one i see all the time and without more to go on, the one that needs to be addressed.

Saying a pike like that needs back flexibility is a disaster waiting to happen.

Of course there are people who's backs don't flex, or don't flex evenly but in the case of the pike its going to be one of the latter aspects to work on. Hips to 90 needs to happen first, with a minimum of help from the back flexing.

Mr Brady said:

As for the picture that Valentine presents, based on Phraks description, the only responsible thing to assume is that this is his pike. Its the one i see all the time and without more to go on, the one that needs to be addressed

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, I'm better than that pic, but it might just be better thoracic mobility - I seem to be farther forward from about the middle of the spine and up, but not below that

Valentin said:

A weighted pike helps develop passive flexibility, a pike that you compress using your hip flexors and abdominals is an active stretch. Passive flexibility is an indicator of the potential for active flexibility can't really develop one without the other

I don't get this because my first standing full pike, and my first sitting full pike were both gotten by pulling with my abs.

Update: using a full length mirror, I was able to pass the 90 degree mark today on the 5th rep of 5x30s flat-backed forward bends. I will continue doing this, as it has given me decent improvement, but what is next? At what point do I move on to other stretches?

I've been doing flat backed forward bends as often as I can (in addition to more regular stretching 3-4 times per week), throughout the day (following the "you are what you do frequently" mantra). It's fairly easy to get to the 90 degree mark now, and I can get past it, but it seems to be significantly harder to maintain that level of flexibility throughout the day. Are there other things I could/should be doing for the hamstrings at this point?

Sounds like good progress. If you're not already doing single leg forward bends add them, that will accelerate your progress.

Single leg massively accelerates the pike gains, especially in the beginning when you're just teaching your body to use the muscle length that it actually has.

It's probably better for literally lengthening the muscle too since there would be a stronger stimulus. It would essentially be Jay Shroeder's "LDISO" for hamstrings in the single leg form.

Two things:

One, that picture of the girl is showing her with a massively rounded back. How are you claiming that her erectors are lacking flexibility in that particular situation? Other than that, I tend to agree with a lot of both presentations. Hip rotation is huge, you have to work hard to make sure you aren't externally rotating at all if you intend to actually make progress with your hamstring flexibility, but it should go without saying that this requires good gluteal flexibility as well. The standing pike literally stretches everything in the posterior chain from the calves up through the erectors, including the hip external rotators and abductors(some, not all) to some extent if the feet are together.

Two, when I talk about the single leg pike work I start with a bent leg and my chest flat on my leg, and then I straighten the knee keeping my chest on my thigh. I only go as high as I can without losing the chest contact. This lets me concentrate on the active portion of the stretch (using the hip flexors, both thigh and abdominal) and also gives me better progress, personally. Is this what you guys are doing? I am curious. I recently found out that apparently this is how the yoga guys in India build incredible pikes through conversation with a guy who went out there and lived with a few yogis for like 6 months. He said that is how he got his pike the way it is, which is pretty crazy. It's almost like watching a female gymnast. Is this familiar to anyone here?

Mr Brady said:

Sounds like good progress. If you're not already doing single leg forward bends add them, that will accelerate your progress.

Just to be clear, are we talking about something like this or like this?

slizzardman said:

It's probably better for literally lengthening the muscle too since there would be a stronger stimulus. It would essentially be Jay Shroeder's "LDISO" for hamstrings in the single leg form.

What does this even mean... I tried googling "Jay Schroeder LDISO" and got some real cryptic forum posts...