5 questions

I joined a local gymnastics club which works out to about $20 per class. I'm able use the bars (parallel, high, uneven) balance beam, rings, ropes, tramp, etc. There's a 15 min warm-up and then kind of rotate on the apparatus, supervised by a Russian trainer (of course).I enjoyed the class and the new movements. My shoulder blades were most sore (for about 3 days after) but they recovered.

However since class is only 1x week I would like to add some gymnastic strength work (as per this site) another time per week. I will have to monitor how my body feels, as I am also playing tennis and running (both recreational competitively) as well as doing some other full body/core workouts - altogether 5 days per week (2 days per week rest). In terms of adding Gymnastic Strength Training™ I believe it makes sense (for me at least) to focus only on a few moves at the start, understanding that a preliminary progression is involved. That way I can incorporate these into my current training schedule.

What makes sense to me at this time are L-Sit (core), Muscle Up (arms) , Head/Handstand leading to press (arms/core), and perhaps Single Leg Squat. These are some of my concerns:

1) Would these exercises be overall good starting points for increasing overall strength for gymnastics? Is there a combination that would be more synergistic? The head/handstand is my weakest area, partly because it's upside down, but also because of my bodyweight to arm strength ratio. I read the article on 5 best exercises although 5 is too many to start (for me).

2) Outside of the class should I work on pull-ups/dips for the muscle up, or is there a way to combine hem using stuff in a regular gym? EDIT: I tried using a wieght assisted pull up machine and it was pretty awkward but maybe better than nothing.

3) My left arm is not as well developed as my right arm and gives out sooner. Although tennis doesn't involve big weights it's surprising how many tennis players have one arm twice as large as the other! Would this matter much and should I try to intentionally balance the two?

4) I found training the L-sit on dip bars left my shoulders in the neck area rather feeling compressed and tight the next day for a few days. Generally I don't like working with heavy weights because of this feeling ( there may have been some nerual fatigue as well). Is there a way to compensate for this, perhaps by hanging or pulling/stretching immediatley afterwards? I used ice/massage when the pain began.

5) In terms of reading material I see that there are a number of books on the website. Is there any that combine all the areas that I'm interested in at an introductory level? Most of the posts here seem to deal with more experienced players, though am sure that I missed some. EDIT: found the intro posts for people not ready for the WOD

So overall I'm excited about this opportunity, think that the concept for this site is great and looking forward to making some progress, with a little cooperation from my body and help from my friends. Thank you.

E

FutureisNow said:

I joined a local gymnastics club which works out to about $20 per class. I'm able use the bars (parallel, high, uneven) balance beam, rings, ropes, tramp, etc. There's a 15 min warm-up and then kind of rotate on the apparatus, supervised by a Russian trainer (of course).I enjoyed the class and the new movements. My shoulder blades were most sore (for about 3 days after) but they recovered.

However since class is only 1x week I would like to add some gymnastic strength work (as per this site) another time per week. I will have to monitor how my body feels, as I am also playing tennis and running (both recreational competitively) as well as doing some other full body/core workouts - altogether 5 days per week (2 days per week rest). In terms of adding Gymnastic Strength Training™ I believe it makes sense (for me at least) to focus only on a few moves at the start, understanding that a preliminary progression is involved. That way I can incorporate these into my current training schedule.

What makes sense to me at this time are L-Sit (core), Muscle Up (arms) , Head/Handstand leading to press (arms/core), and perhaps Single Leg Squat. These are some of my concerns:

1) Would these exercises be overall good starting points for increasing overall strength for gymnastics? Is there a combination that would be more synergistic? The head/handstand is my weakest area, partly because it's upside down, but also because of my bodyweight to arm strength ratio. I read the article on 5 best exercises although 5 is too many to start (for me).

I really don't have enough experience with gymnastic training to help you with this question, someone more knowledgeable on here should be able to easily tell you if this is a good idea (my goals were/are vastly different so I really can't tell you what training would work in your situation).

FutureisNow said:

2) Outside of the class should I work on pull-ups/dips for the muscle up, or is there a way to combine hem using stuff in a regular gym? EDIT: I tried using a wieght assisted pull up machine and it was pretty awkward but maybe better than nothing.

If you are proficient at pullups and dips then you should definitely work on the transition instead of just doing more of then to get a muscle-up. Some good ways are with a band, with a spot, jump up and do a negative, use a kip. And remember to use false grip and chalk . Chalk makes muscle ups significantly easier.

FutureisNow said:

3) My left arm is not as well developed as my right arm and gives out sooner. Although tennis doesn't involve big weights it's surprising how many tennis players have one arm twice as large as the other! Would this matter much and should I try to intentionally balance the two?

I imagine that as you get stronger this will become a none problem since the hypertrophy from training should be be greater than from tennis serves/hits. Oh and for the love of god take care of your shoulders with a TON of scapular and rotator cuff work as well as tissue quality work and elbow work.The reason for this is tennis is an overhead sport - so are handstands. This just means you are more at risk at developing shoulder issue than someone who does just one, a ton of shoulder assistance work is pretty important.

FutureisNow said:

4) I found training the L-sit on dip bars left my shoulders in the neck area rather feeling compressed and tight the next day for a few days. Generally I don't like working with heavy weights because of this feeling ( there may have been some nerual fatigue as well). Is there a way to compensate for this, perhaps by hanging or pulling/stretching immediatley afterwards? I used ice/massage when the pain began.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Shoulder in the neck area? traps? inside the clavicle? levator scapula (it connects to the shoulder blade)? Depending on the answer it could just be soreness (which will eventually stop appearing) or something else.

FutureisNow said:

5) In terms of reading material I see that there are a number of books on the website. Is there any that combine all the areas that I'm interested in at an introductory level? Most of the posts here seem to deal with more experienced players, though am sure that I missed some. EDIT: found the intro posts for people not ready for the WOD

BTGB is the introductory book. And here is a collection of Coach's essays: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=892

FutureisNow said:

So overall I'm excited about this opportunity, think that the concept for this site is great and looking forward to making some progress, with a little cooperation from my body and help from my friends. Thank you.

E

I really don't have enough experience with gymnastic training to help you with this question, someone more knowledgeable on here should be able to easily tell you if this is a good idea (my goals were/are vastly different so I really can't tell you what training would work in your situation).

Ok thanks ... I'm open to alternatives as well. The ring strength series looked good and I'll try that at the class, and perhaps try it at the regular gym if there may things there to hang from the bar there. No where to hang rings at home except the garage which isn't heated.

If you are proficient at pullups and dips then you should definitely work on the transition instead of just doing more of then to get a muscle-up. Some good ways are with a band, with a spot, jump up and do a negative, use a kip. And remember to use false grip and chalk . Chalk makes muscle ups significantly easier.

Thanks ... they also have the cutoff bars that you can grip at the end. It may make transition smoother. Not sure if you know what I mean, but they are shaped more like bicycle handlbars than a straight bar.

Oh and for the love of god take care of your shoulders with a TON of scapular and rotator cuff work as well as tissue quality work and elbow work.The reason for this is tennis is an overhead sport - so are handstands. This just means you are more at risk at developing shoulder issue than someone who does just one, a ton of shoulder assistance work is pretty important.

Good point. Getting a shoulder/elbow injury is my greatest fear and I would just toss Gymnastics out the window if it happened.

4) I found training the L-sit on dip bars left my shoulders in the neck area rather feeling compressed and tight the next day for a few days. Generally I don't like working with heavy weights because of this feeling ( there may have been some nerual fatigue as well). Is there a way to compensate for this, perhaps by hanging or pulling/stretching immediatley afterwards? I used ice/massage when the pain began.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Shoulder in the neck area? traps? inside the clavicle? levator scapula (it connects to the shoulder blade)? Depending on the answer it could just be soreness (which will eventually stop appearing) or something else.

It did clear up but it was also hard to localise. Probably a mobility related issue but definately more on the front and top. Will focus more on the shoulder mobility before doing anything.

Thanks for your suggestions! Much appreciated

P.S. This edit window bounces around so much it's hard to type in. Am on a netbook.

FIN, I try to answer your questions as best as I can, mostly from a first hand experience than theory, but I don't know you personally, my advices may not fit you well.

The biggest problem I've found with BtGB is the rating difficult, I mean, not all 1/2 or so stars are comparable, take the "Straddle L - PB bent" as an example, is rated half star but there's no way I can perform it even if I can now hold regular L-sit - PB (rated 2 stars, btw, no chance of performing it on the floor) and regular HLL (rated 2 and a half). So my idea of taking the lowest step on every sequence to start the WOD or a selfmade program didn't work at all. It's taking me very long to figure out how to get started and progressing properly, the latest 2 or 3 stickies in here do that well, but they still leave some gaps which are usually answered with: start the WODs asap. Anyway before I get off topic, what I'm saying is that everyone is different, with different strenghts and weaknesses. As all the prerequisites on strenght aren't enough to get you started with exercise progressions like MSH, SLS, pullovers, Chest roll - HeS and many others in my case. I can't hold a GH for 60s even if I can hold a flat BL for 10 or so sec. I'm telling you this because 6 months later I'm still in a position where I shouldn't even start working on BL in order to avoid injuries, but to makes things even more confusing, without even training MU in any way, as I wasn't considering myself ready for those,I discovered a couple of weeks ago that I can do some pretty decent singles MU (rated 2), after months of just lots of basics push and pull (1 star on PullUps, PushUps, Dips, Rows). But guess what? I can't progress on those as well because thay are still very challenging in the last few reps of my usual 5*5.

1- I would also add HLL for core and deck squat for legs.

2-I think the best guess here is 360 pulls to GH and then PullUps, PushUps, Dips, Rows, hang l-sit and HLL.

3- I believe the longer you will train with this model the lower the difference in your arms will get. always base your feedbacks on the weakest arm though

4- I guess that if you're feeling discomfort it means you're not ready, do hang lsit and work pb support separately, if still unconfortable switch back to pushups ring support (if plank on the floor is too easy)

5- I think this book can possibly be the best introduction to gymnastic training: The Complete Book of Pilates for Men: The Lifetime Plan for Strength, Power & Peak Performance

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-Pil ... 0060820772

swarovski said:

FIN, I try to answer your questions as best as I can, mostly from a first hand experience than theory, but I don't know you personally, my advices may not fit you well.

The biggest problem I've found with BtGB is the rating difficult, I mean, not all 1/2 or so stars are comparable, take the "Straddle L - PB bent" as an example, is rated half star but there's no way I can perform it even if I can now hold regular L-sit - PB (rated 2 stars, btw, no chance of performing it on the floor) and regular HLL (rated 2 and a half).

So my idea of taking the lowest step on every sequence to start the WOD or a selfmade program didn't work at all. It's taking me very long to figure out how to get started and progressing properly, the latest 2 or 3 stickies in here do that well, but they still leave some gaps which are usually answered with: start the WODs asap.

Anyway before I get off topic, what I'm saying is that everyone is different, with different strenghts and weaknesses. As all the prerequisites on strenght aren't enough to get you started with exercise progressions like MSH, SLS, pullovers, Chest roll - HeS and many others in my case. I can't hold a GH for 60s even if I can hold a flat BL for 10 or so sec. I'm telling you this because 6 months later I'm still in a position where I shouldn't even start working on BL in order to avoid injuries, but to makes things even more confusing, without even training MU in any way, as I wasn't considering myself ready for those,I discovered a couple of weeks ago that I can do some pretty decent singles MU (rated 2), after months of just lots of basics push and pull (1 star on PullUps, PushUps, Dips, Rows). But guess what? I can't progress on those as well because thay are still very challenging in the last few reps of my usual 5*5.

1- I would also add HLL for core and deck squat for legs.

2-I think the best guess here is 360 pulls to GH and then PullUps, PushUps, Dips, Rows, hang l-sit and HLL.

3- I believe the longer you will train with this model the lower the difference in your arms will get. always base your feedbacks on the weakest arm though

4- I guess that if you're feeling discomfort it means you're not ready, do hang lsit and work pb support separately, if still unconfortable switch back to pushups ring support (if plank on the floor is too easy)

5- I think this book can possibly be the best introduction to gymnastic training: The Complete Book of Pilates for Men: The Lifetime Plan for Strength, Power & Peak Performance

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-Pil ... 0060820772

So it's a bit like mountain climbing, there is no easy way up, but you need to find a way up you can make without crashing to the ground. It may be the long way but that may be the only way

And I think with most athletics, especially those we see people who make it look easy (for example kids 8 and younger doing it) that we think we can do it with enough sustained effort. But it's not always the case. In fact, kids starting young may have an easier time. It makes me wonder if perhaps the difficulties are graded based on the experiences of kids, rather than mature adults with very different body proportions, weight distributions, limb lengths (and flexiblity!) than children. It's just a guess - I haven't read the book yet.

We do share similar flexiblity issues I think, so some of your experiences may mirror mine, though it's too early to say.

Thanks for the thoughts on my questions - really appreciate it, and will keep them in mind as the situations arise. Regarding #5, I didn't realise there was a connection between pilates and gymnastics. I've only seen ladies on a mat or some weird machine. But I will look into it !

My only thought on your situation is that 5x5 may be more volume than is required? My general understanding is that 3x5 can do almost the same job for strength. I personally wouldn't have time or the patience for 5x5 unless it were a short circut.

I think I read you were working towards 2 hour workouts - which seem to be more on the strength endurance level than strength per se. Do you think that a more intense and focused session might get you where you want to go? Just a thought - knowing not much :-)

Best,

FIN

As far as I know Joseph Pilates himself was a kind of macho-men and he developed his program on his own experience addressing it to men. The fact it became a ladies work out I think has to do more with the making money process than anything else. I warmly suggest THAT book to you, far cheaper, easier and pretty straight forward. I believe the best GB on-ramp course for adult newcomers.

My long workout are basically due to the fact that I like the idea of getting in better shape that I ever been...

5*5 is because I'm trying to build a solid foundation, the body needs to adapt slowly, I think that shifting a bit torward endurance it's the safest route in the beginning.

swarovski said:

As far as I know Joseph Pilates himself was a kind of macho-men and he developed his program on his own experience addressing it to men. The fact it became a ladies work out I think has to do more with the making money process than anything else. I warmly suggest THAT book to you, far cheaper, easier and pretty straight forward. I believe the best GB on-ramp course for adult newcomers.

My long workout are basically due to the fact that I like the idea of getting in better shape that I ever been...

5*5 is because I'm trying to build a solid foundation, the body needs to adapt slowly, I think that shifting a bit torward endurance it's the safest route in the beginning.

Yes it looks interesting. I will check it out Thanks again swarovski.

I haven't read your whole training log, though maybe will at one point. In regards to progress another point that is

often overlooked is taking time off. Sometimes it's forced on us by injury, but then really our body is

focused on repairing the major rather than minor damage. I like to take about a week (5-7) days off from intense training 2-3 times per year.

Fitness is not lost and your muscles and mind can often come back stronger Only very light activity is done ( walking, light biking, stretching and housework ) during this time.

I'm not aware if this is typically advised in gymnastics, but I personally use it to avoid overtraining, injury and burnout.

sorry for late reply, I thought I did it already.

I think slizzardman posts in general are far more educative than my humble beginner journey in bodyweight training, but I do appreciate of you considering to spend quite some time reading my whole log.

Overtraining seems something more related to endurance athlets, I've never even thought of an ironman, my longest ever run I think was less than 10K, told myself never again. Simply said, I rest far more than I train, most of my injuries comes from collisions though... (from rugby, motocrossing, mountainbiking, snowboarding and so on).

haha... as an example last night I managed to scratch my face and arms on a uncoordinated front flip landing!!

hope you'll enjoy this form of training as much as I do.

swarovski said:

... The biggest problem I've found with BtGB is the rating difficult, I mean, not all 1/2 or so stars are comparable, take the "Straddle L - PB bent" as an example, is rated half star but there's no way I can perform it even if I can now hold regular L-sit - PB (rated 2 stars, btw, no chance of performing it on the floor) and regular HLL (rated 2 and a half) ...

You are comparing apples to oranges.

The BtGB difficulty ratings only pertain to that particular movement; hence L-sit ratings only pertain to other L-sit ratings and Straddle L ratings only compare to other Straddle L ratings. The rating system is NOT designed to allow you to compare an L-sit rating to a Straddle L rating.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

swarovski said:

As far as I know Joseph Pilates himself was a kind of macho-men and he developed his program on his own experience addressing it to men. The fact it became a ladies work out I think has to do more with the making money process than anything else. I warmly suggest THAT book to you, far cheaper, easier and pretty straight forward. I believe the best GB on-ramp course for adult newcomers.

My long workout are basically due to the fact that I like the idea of getting in better shape that I ever been...

5*5 is because I'm trying to build a solid foundation, the body needs to adapt slowly, I think that shifting a bit torward endurance it's the safest route in the beginning.

Pilates is hard. Anyone who thinks pilates is easy has never done the real thing, and anyone who thinks it isn't extremely useful has no idea how important strength through a complete range of mobility, which requires strong stabilizers, is to one's overall physical performance. That's part of why active flexibility, as we call it here, or (active) mobility as many in the sports physiology field call it, is incredibly important. That's why you aren't supposed to skip Coach's hip circles (just one example) when they come up in the WODs!

swarovski said:

Overtraining seems something more related to endurance athlets, I've never even thought of an ironman, my longest ever run I think was less than 10K, told myself never again. Simply said, I rest far more than I train, most of my injuries comes from collisions though... (from rugby, motocrossing, mountainbiking, snowboarding and so on).

haha... as an example last night I managed to scratch my face and arms on a uncoordinated front flip landing!!

hope you'll enjoy this form of training as much as I do.

Ironman level tri or anything above 10K I'd never want to try. But the tri-a-tri and sprint-tri distances are appealing. I'm looking forward to running my first 5K of the season in about a month, and then maybe 3 or 4 more during the season.

I'm more interested in speed than distance myself, and do it just because I like to run.

Ordered the rings, but doing some work in the gymnastic class for now.

Starting off from scratch I can do a 10s L hang with level legs, and can get a little V going. Is that a positive sign?

L-sits are harder , not quite parallel.

Also first time ever did a headstand, supported against the wall.

Pullovers on the high bar were cool, though had a little help going over.

What I find in the class is that they encourage the full motion with spotting, rather than scaling it with tucks or single-legs.

So we messed around a bit with front and back levers, with full spotting support. The assistant was doing more work than I was but apparently it was the way he learned. I wanted to do some of the progression but didn't have the chance.

Tried muscle up and that is extremely hard. Had to do negatives and work on the transition from my knees.

It's exciting to do even though it's so contained.

thanks coach for reinforcing my new understanding of BtGB, it only became clear after many, many posts. For quite long time I thought the first level of the progressions were suitable to anyone. Simply the starting place. I believe beginners would really appreciate an errata until the 2nd ed. will be released.

Anyway, I feel "guilty" to have wasted your time with such statement, sorry for that, it wasn't a critic, it was just to express how much time and commitment I personally had to put in to overcome my little comprehension. As you know I'm very grateful to you for showing me (like anyone else here, I suppose) that it wasn't so weird to TRY to train like a gymnast. I've found so many new performance goals to set for myself in your work that I didn't quit even if I had to face many obstacles along the way. THANK YOU.

slizzardman, nice to see you share my views, well, it's an honour actually.

@fin

my advice is don't force yourself in exercises beyond you just because you can actually get closer and closer. As for my experience after the first MU (tested for fun) I got so excited, that I spent a week or so attempting it, until I developed albow discomfort. Morale, as far as I understand it, the fact that you can perform something doesn't mean that you should keep going for it.

I don't know about spotting, maybe is due to a lack of teaching methods, I don't get spotted very often as I'm the only (silly?) adult in there, it's a competitive teen class the one I'm in and the coach is 40kg at best.

swarovski said:

@fin

my advice is don't force yourself in exercises beyond you just because you can actually get closer and closer. As for my experience after the first MU (tested for fun) I got so excited, that I spent a week or so attempting it, until I developed albow discomfort. Morale, as far as I understand it, the fact that you can perform something doesn't mean that you should keep going for it.

I don't know about spotting, maybe is due to a lack of teaching methods, I don't get spotted very often as I'm the only (silly?) adult in there, it's a competitive teen class the one I'm in and the coach is 40kg at best.

I think we'll all be inclined towards certain exercises for whatever reason, to get a foothold. I know there are people who have made progress with a particular exercise, say planche, and then realise they missed some of the prerequisites, and feel they have to go back. Maybe it is better that they do, but at the same time I wonder if it is neccessary. For example, typically crawling preceeds walking and it is generally considered normal development. However, I went straight to walking. Should I now be forced to go back and crawl for the sake of crawling

It may be out of an abundance of caution that the prerequistes are emphasised, and they may truly help in the long run in terms of musclular development, strength and joint health. At the same time, not everyone, as you have said in other posts, is built identically. The prereqs cover all the bases to make sure it's generally safe for everyone to advance without a coach or trainer being physically present. That's my intuition about it anyway.

I am a beliver in listening to my own body, heart and mind and becoming my own coach, after understanding the principles. Obviously I will be dependant to start. I don't know any better, but I do know what I like and how my body feels and reacts better than anyone else. Doing WOD regularly will be difficult for me (besides being on 2x week schedule). Hopefully that is not arrogant. It may be unfortunate. It may or may not change in the future.

haha... good point on crawling. congrats, you're very creative with analogies.

everything you say make sense for sure and I second your thoughts, probably as far as you're in control and not struggling to perform an exercise it could be safe enough, if you can perceive your body well, then I'm sure you can become your best coach. I'm in the learning process to do the same after all.

FutureisNow said:

swarovski said:

@fin

my advice is don't force yourself in exercises beyond you just because you can actually get closer and closer. As for my experience after the first MU (tested for fun) I got so excited, that I spent a week or so attempting it, until I developed albow discomfort. Morale, as far as I understand it, the fact that you can perform something doesn't mean that you should keep going for it.

I don't know about spotting, maybe is due to a lack of teaching methods, I don't get spotted very often as I'm the only (silly?) adult in there, it's a competitive teen class the one I'm in and the coach is 40kg at best.

I think we'll all be inclined towards certain exercises for whatever reason, to get a foothold. I know there are people who have made progress with a particular exercise, say planche, and then realise they missed some of the prerequisites, and feel they have to go back. Maybe it is better that they do, but at the same time I wonder if it is neccessary. For example, typically crawling preceeds walking and it is generally considered normal development. However, I went straight to walking. Should I now be forced to go back and crawl for the sake of crawling

It may be out of an abundance of caution that the prerequistes are emphasised, and they may truly help in the long run in terms of musclular development, strength and joint health. At the same time, not everyone, as you have said in other posts, is built identically. The prereqs cover all the bases to make sure it's generally safe for everyone to advance without a coach or trainer being physically present. That's my intuition about it anyway.

I am a beliver in listening to my own body, heart and mind and becoming my own coach, after understanding the principles. Obviously I will be dependant to start. I don't know any better, but I do know what I like and how my body feels and reacts better than anyone else. Doing WOD regularly will be difficult for me (besides being on 2x week schedule). Hopefully that is not arrogant. It may be unfortunate. It may or may not change in the future.

Interestingly enough, crawling is harder work than it looks like. For adults, bear crawls and similar modes of locomotion are a bit more appropriate, but these all load the shoulders and hips in directions and vectors that they are not used to. This sort of this is actually a fantastic part of warm up. Top programs in various sports around the world seem to have various locomotions for warm up on a pretty regular basis.

At any rate, the pre-requisites are in place not just for safety but also to ensure that we are developing all of the muscles and activation patterns we will need for later progressions. Sometimes it seems silly, but there is a purpose for everything and it should not be ignored. If, for whatever reason, you did not have a 50-60s plank (in the planche elevation, of course... push up plank is not going to cut it here. Body must be parallel with the floor or slightly higher) with protracted scapula and a hollow body then you would want to master that before working on tuck planche, even if you have a 25s tuck planche. It doesn't mean you abandon the tuck planche, this just means that you do not try to add more time, volume or difficulty until that pre-requisite is accomplished.

In the end, the ideal situation would be for each person to truly understand their body and become their own trainers. For personal fitness and wellness, at least, that is a reasonable goal. When you start getting into higher level competition or even just trying to push personal boundaries you will find that being your own coach can be very stressful. It is much easier to follow a plan that is already laid out for you by someone who knows how to get you where you want to be and how to get and keep you there without causing injuries. Of course, that usually costs money.

slizzardman said:

Interestingly enough, crawling is harder work than it looks like. For adults, bear crawls and similar modes of locomotion are a bit more appropriate, but these all load the shoulders and hips in directions and vectors that they are not used to. This sort of this is actually a fantastic part of warm up. Top programs in various sports around the world seem to have various locomotions for warm up on a pretty regular basis.

Yes, for adults crawling is harder than walking. At least on the knees. And bear crawls, on the shoulders. It's no fun. That's probably why we end up walking - though a few knuckle draggers still can be found

slizzardman said:

At any rate, the pre-requisites are in place not just for safety but also to ensure that we are developing all of the muscles and activation patterns we will need for later progressions. Sometimes it seems silly, but there is a purpose for everything and it should not be ignored.

To me this goes to a bigger question about how the program is implemented in my life, fully or partially (for gymnastics goals or strength training). I am just coming to terms with the idea of doing gymnastics, which is not something I even considered attempting a month ago, let alone considered becoming proficient in. I'll revisit this further below.

slizzardman said:

If, for whatever reason, you did not have a 50-60s plank (in the planche elevation, of course... push up plank is not going to cut it here. Body must be parallel with the floor or slightly higher) with protracted scapula and a hollow body then you would want to master that before working on tuck planche, even if you have a 25s tuck planche. It doesn't mean you abandon the tuck planche, this just means that you do not try to add more time, volume or difficulty until that pre-requisite is accomplished.

I know you're not addressing this to me, but Planche is one movement I really do not have any interest in performing. I've seen it. Not keen on it. I don't want to put my body under that stress. Another is manna. Therefore I have no interest in learning or doing the progressions or prerequisites that lead up to it. These may be top notch moves to do and lead to better performance in lots of other things but I'll have to find a way to work around this limitation for now.

slizzardman said:

In the end, the ideal situation would be for each person to truly understand their body and become their own trainers. For personal fitness and wellness, at least, that is a reasonable goal.

When you start getting into higher level competition or even just trying to push personal boundaries you will find that being your own coach can be very stressful. It is much easier to follow a plan that is already laid out for you by someone who knows how to get you where you want to be and how to get and keep you there without causing injuries. Of course, that usually costs money.

There are certainly times when a coach can be helpful. I find it's mostly at the start. It's not clear to me that it is in the mushy middle area. Most coaches/trainers don't really give a hoot anyway about people at this level because they suck (relatively speaking) and how they progress because they are their bread and butter. Some do but these are few and far between. Advanced/competitive level is a non-issue for me.

As mentioned above, I'm coming to terms with this whole gymnastic endeavor just now. On one level it is being suggested as a replacement for weight (strength) training. I like this, however have concerns about the number of moves that one is required to master. It becomes rather complex and time consuming and that would discourage me from wanting to do more and better. I can do my basic upper body weights strength training with about 6 movements in 30-40 minutes, without much in the way of prerequisites, mobilizations and variations.

On another level, what it is being presented as a method to become something of a legitimate gymnast, at least a well rounded gymnastics-ready athlete. That is a whole other proposition. While I am amazed and impressed at what gymnasts do, how will this help me in my life? Why will having a muscle that is developed beyond any practical use outside of gymnastics be of value to me?

Further, I'm not sure that serious training doesn't encourage any physical problems from developing because a lot of the positions seem unnatural. Tendonitis frequently comes up in this forum. At the elite level studies have shown that gymnasts have among the highest rate of injuries in all sports. A lot of that is training for and during competition. But even here people talk about rehab for a month from various injuries suffered. Injury is a concern. But mainly I find that very serious high-level athletes lose site of the main goal, which to me is enjoyment and pleasure in the activity.

So I am approaching this new potential undertaking gingerly with some trepidation. I realize that Coach Sommer has done me and everyone a service by making this information accessible. I appreciate his intelligent and careful approach, and do want to make the most of it, given my issues and limitations. Obviously no one is forcing anyone to do anything here. People with a mixed-sports background, not soley dedicated to gymnastics, will have similar issues when attempting to integrate gymnastics into their programs.

Thanks for the recommendation of Pilates for Men swarovski. I picked it up awhile back after seeing it on the forums here, and it's been quite useful. I still find it a bit hard to get past the 'pilates is for girls' thing, but the exercises are pretty challenging. It's funny how he titles the exercise description with 'unleash your inner beast' or something like that..

Nothing wrong with what you want, FIN. I do think that it is a bit much to think of gymnastics as "unnatural" but I suppose everyone has their own opinion.

Virtually all of the issues that crop up here do so because people simply refuse to adhere to the suggested timelines for development. Similar things happen in the weight room, you just see a lot more impingement, lower back strains and rotator cuff tears there and more tendonitis here. Both come from trying too much too quickly and not using proper form.

Nothing wrong with wanting to stay away from planche and manna, you should always do what you enjoy and care about! More than anything else, around here we are about people enjoying their fitness!

Thanks for the reply J. Not sure if you are aware the thread topic is a year old?

In any event, my feelings haven't changed that much, though I'm not against

working on the planche or manna at a later date. I know they both would be

very difficult to master given my strengths and weaknesses, even harder than the levers

and muscle up ... for me anyway.

FutureisNow said:

Thanks for the reply J. Not sure if you are aware the thread topic is a year old?

In any event, my feelings haven't changed that much, though I'm not against

working on the planche or manna at a later date. I know they both would be

very difficult to master given my strengths and weaknesses, even harder than the levers

and muscle up ... for me anyway.

I plead tired, hungry, and late in the semester! :oops:

Late semester fatigue is slowly setting in here too, Josh. Only 4 more weeks for me, though. Can't wait to have another 20 hours in the week to use for training and my personal studying!

Joshua Naterman said:

FutureisNow said:

Thanks for the reply J. Not sure if you are aware the thread topic is a year old?

In any event, my feelings haven't changed that much, though I'm not against

working on the planche or manna at a later date. I know they both would be

very difficult to master given my strengths and weaknesses, even harder than the levers

and muscle up ... for me anyway.

I plead tired, hungry, and late in the semester! :oops:

In that case you are released on the grounds you eat and sleep soon.

<====== is violating parole :?

Will fix with Cadbury Creme eggs and sleep.