Diet Critique Please!!!

[Larry Roseman]

Also, it was noted that I wasn't eating enough protein. With at least 3 protein shakes a day @ 46g = 138g, 2 cans of chicken/tuna @ approx. 30g = 50-60g, breakfast being eggs-bacon-sausage, and lunch and dinner being large amounts of meat and veggies. That's around 168g of protein just in whey protein powder. Adding that to my breakfast, lunch and dinner is well over 200g of protein, probably close to 300g. What else should I do? Thanks guys!

Actually I was joking when I said that. I'm not a nutriionist, nor an expert. I personally think you're eating enough protein.

If you're losing muscle it may be because of your activities. To me because your diet is so low in carbs, and because fat

is burned at low intensities primarily, there is a greater chance that your own muscle will be used for fuel. I'm not saying it is for sure but it's one of the risks of very low carbs combined with intense exercise.

So if you're not trying to maintain ketosis you may want to experiment with adding some carbs that you can personally tolerate

before high intensity bouts. Tennis is highly anerobic for example, and players frequently grab a banana on breaks, not to mention all kinds of electrolyle and carb loaded drinks.

If it's a diet that you are going to maintain long-term, then certainly look at adding some variety. Nothing wrong with

fresh fish, broiled. Broiled veggies are great. Eating a few fruit during the day is generally healthy - I personally believe it is highly unlikely that a very active person will have no spare room to store a few fruits worth of fructose (as glycogen) during the day. There are just too many times that the body will call upon its reserves so that it is rarely full. And even if the fructose were converted to triglicerides (some of which are used by the body for repair purposes) and it hit the fat stores, those are in constant flux and will be called upon when needed.

So in short, you may want to experiment a bit, if you are not satisfied with the way it is.

[Larry Roseman]

FIN, I am not sure where you are getting your research from. Humans have not evolved much in the past 10,000 years. Grains are still an issue. This is something you can go see easily. Take any client you have off grain and they will have positive results.

As for keto not working for MMA, I do both. My endurance has never been better.

The scientific consensus is that the keto state is not optimum for intense exercise, and that performance suffers. That's a general statement. One would need to expand upon the exact parameters on all sides - that statement and your actual physical state and nature of your workout. Endurance is not an issue with ketosis, as the fat on most people can supply energy for many days let alone a few hours.

[Larry Roseman]

As far as the evolution thing goes, I think you are wrong. I'm not arguing the grains thing, but the children of the videogame generations are growing statistically significantly longer thumbs compared to all other recorded generations, obviously based on people who are currently around. What we do with our lives directly changes the genes our children inherit. This has been shown to be true in many, many different animals and if we are sharing well over 90% of our DNA with every mammal on the planet then it is insane to think the same does not happen to us as well.

slizzardman i have to take you to task on this. Nothing we do with our lives changes our genes that are inherited.

Those genes are stored in our reproductive cells. It's a common misconception.

Things we do can change how the gene's express themselves in our lifetime but this will have no impact on future generations without a mutation in the reproductive cell.

Perhaps you can argue that somehow boys who have longer thumbs win more video games and these boys are more likely to mate and pass this trait on. However, as much as I like to believe this, becuause my thumbs are pretty long, I find it a rather long stretch of the imagination. Stretch, get it?

Contrary to this, the ability to tolerate grain products is a trait that has value for surivability utnil maturation.

10000 years are hundreds of generations. Darwin observed survibilty related traits chnage in just a few. This is evidenced today in our saliva, the enzyme amylase. There are other adaptations that support grain in the diet, however I have to go have breakfast now and do some digesting. A change of diet that gets rid of junk certainly will make a difference though.

[Philip Chubb]

With all that activity, you are probably burning through a lot. You could look into BCAA. Very effective for stopping muscle catabolism. Post workout carbs could also help if you are doing multiple workouts a day. The key is learning how many you need after each kind of workout and with something like jiujitsu, that is going to require some trial and error at first.

[Eddie Stelling]

Thanks again guys. I know its alot, I'm still struggling trying to figure out how to program everything. But it is theoretical, lately I have skipped a few weeks of jui jitsu. The crossfit I try to do in the morning but lately that has been really hard. I usually end up doing my FSPs and the WOD and then doing my affiliate's crossfit WOD since they are usually very short.

1. So should I alter what I eat based on the amount of activity?

2. Maybe add 1-2 pieces of fruit to breakfast and post workout?

3. Should I add a sweet potatoe or brown rice to my dinner and lunch?

4. How do I get more protein to accomplish 3xBW? Even more meat??

5. Should I add more fat, like avacados?

6. Is adding the above going to make this diet less lean?

Thank you all very much!

[Larry Roseman]

Thanks again guys. I know its alot, I'm still struggling trying to figure out how to program everything. But it is theoretical, lately I have skipped a few weeks of jui jitsu. The crossfit I try to do in the morning but lately that has been really hard. I usually end up doing my FSPs and the WOD and then doing my affiliate's crossfit WOD since they are usually very short.

1. So should I alter what I eat based on the amount of activity?

2. Maybe add 1-2 pieces of fruit to breakfast and post workout?

3. Should I add a sweet potatoe or brown rice to my dinner and lunch?

4. How do I get more protein to accomplish 3xBW? Even more meat??

5. Should I add more fat, like avacados?

6. Is adding the above going to make this diet less lean?

Thank you all very much!

It's all right. I like telling people I don't know what to do and not having to bear any consequence

1. Could try this

2. Could try it

3. Could try it

4. Not sure you need more protein. 3xBW what - squat? No food per se will get you that.

5. Coconut (MCT) also are cool.

6. Diets aren't lean - people are. But get your drift.

It all depends what you are trying to accomplish and your body type.

If something isn't working with your current diet I would certainly tweak it.

Start with one or two things and monitor progress.

Personally at our level, I think a healthy, well balanced diet will support any number of activites.

It's not until you start getting into elite performance that you need to get highly neurotic about it.

[Joshua Naterman]

As far as the evolution thing goes, I think you are wrong. I'm not arguing the grains thing, but the children of the videogame generations are growing statistically significantly longer thumbs compared to all other recorded generations, obviously based on people who are currently around. What we do with our lives directly changes the genes our children inherit. This has been shown to be true in many, many different animals and if we are sharing well over 90% of our DNA with every mammal on the planet then it is insane to think the same does not happen to us as well.

slizzardman i have to take you to task on this. Nothing we do with our lives changes our genes that are inherited.

Those genes are stored in our reproductive cells. It's a common misconception.

Things we do can change how the gene's express themselves in our lifetime but this will have no impact on future generations without a mutation in the reproductive cell.

Perhaps you can argue that somehow boys who have longer thumbs win more video games and these boys are more likely to mate and pass this trait on. However, as much as I like to believe this, becuause my thumbs are pretty long, I find it a rather long stretch of the imagination. Stretch, get it?

Contrary to this, the ability to tolerate grain products is a trait that has value for surivability utnil maturation.

10000 years are hundreds of generations. Darwin observed survibilty related traits chnage in just a few. This is evidenced today in our saliva, the enzyme amylase. There are other adaptations that support grain in the diet, however I have to go have breakfast now and do some digesting. A change of diet that gets rid of junk certainly will make a difference though.

HAHAHA! Hey, it's a tricky subject, that gene thing. There is a growing body of science that is suggesting genetic traits can change much faster than previously thought. I would be surprised if the ability to process certain foods was able to change as quickly as physiological traits, but I have been surprised by some of the research I have been reading so maybe I will be surprised with that as well. I suppose that in principle it is no different than the bird thing later in this post, so that could just be bias on my part.

The reproductive cell storage argument is only true in females, who are born with all of their reproductive cells. We males, on the other hand, make new sperm every two and a half months, on average. That's how long it takes for them to be created and then mature. As gene expression changes it is not surprising that those newly suppressed or expressed genes will be passed on in their current state. So, for men there is a reasonable argument that what we do with our lives WILL directly affect our children. This has been shown to be true in mice studies, where low protein diets in the fathers led to the children developing higher cholesterol levels than children who were conceived when mice ate a more balanced diet, even when the different child generations were on the same diet. It will only be a matter of time before this is shown to be true with physical characteristics as well, as the thumb study is one example of. It may be small effects from one generation to another, but there are plenty of examples in the animal kingdom that say otherwise. Dog breeds that are bred in drastically different climates from what they originally were meant for, like a malamute that is from a line living in Hawaii, only take 2-3 generations to produce noticeably thinner coats, even in winter. Birds have grown completely different beaks in response to available food changing from nuts to deep flowers within ONE generation.

How the hell?! I am honestly surprised that is even possible, I mean I had to re-read the studies just to make peace with myself. I do think it will end up being similar for people, but perhaps not as fast as with the birds... that was and is just crazy, but who knows.

I do agree with you, the OP is definitely ok on his protein and is leaning towards making his diet more difficult than it needs to be. In the end, KISS seems to work for eating as well as workouts.

[Eddie Stelling]

KISS? What do you mean by this? I'm so lost now!! I guess I will just add in sweet potatoes and fruit.

[Joshua Naterman]

It means "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" It just means stick to the basics and don't worry so much about all the small stuff. The basics are what get you most of the way there, so in this case as long as you're eating your veggies and having sweet potatoes, rice, or whatever starches you enjoy that aren't bleached or enriched (preferably) around your workout along with protein (meat, powder, whatever) you should do just fine.

It is a lot of fun, at least to me, to experiment with your diet and see how different dietary plans make you feel, but don't let it drive you crazy!

[Eddie Stelling]

Haha! Gotcha! Well, I feel I should add some fruit to the breakfast and sweet potatoes to dinner which is after the workout. i just wanted to put on lean mass without getting fat. I remember reading a reply by Ido that said to increase your protein and fats to put on mass. He said to up the protein to either 2.5 or 3 times your body weight per day. I was trying to go that route. Thanks for your help!

[Eddie Stelling]

Oh I meant to ask, should I eat beans as well for fiber?? If so, when should I eat that?

[Larry Roseman]

Oh I meant to ask, should I eat beans as well for fiber?? If so, when should I eat that?

If you're squatting keep a buffer zone around you

Beans are great to me, although they do require some preparation.

I generally avoid red Kidney beans and soybeans (as a whole food) because they have certain chemicals that

agglutenate (thicken) the blood - much more so than wheat. Fermented soy like Tofu does not have these.

These beans can be eaten in small amounts though. Most other beans with soaking overnight (if starting

from dry) and normal cooking are fine. Combining beans with rice is a tradional dish that happens to create

a complete protein as well !

Check out garbonzo beans - chick peas. Very cost effective with a nice texture and great nutritional profile.

Maybe they are peas - lots of fibre and protein.

Overall, you should have an idea of the approximate calories you're taking in and expending, and your body's basic requirement. The net difference will be either a surplus or a deficit (or zero) and basically determine of the long haul whether

you put on or lose weight. Of course it's more complicated than that - the main point being that your portion size

should reflect your body's requirement. Weight fluctates day to day depending on various factors - the point being

a few pounds either way is not a big deal. It may change initially with a new diet due to water retention or loss.

if you fluctuate in a steady range week-to-week then you are eating at a maintenance level.

[Larry Roseman]

The reproductive cell storage argument is only true in females, who are born with all of their reproductive cells. We males, on the other hand, make new sperm every two and a half months, on average. That's how long it takes for them to be created and then mature. As gene expression changes it is not surprising that those newly suppressed or expressed genes will be passed on in their current state. So, for men there is a reasonable argument that what we do with our lives WILL directly affect our children.

Once again this is getting into deep water, however I believe the genes being expressed are only in the thumb or bone. They are not being expressed anywhere else in the body. If they were, gamers c*cks would be growing longer too! Wouldn't that make them, and the video game manufactuers really happy Forgive me if I trivialize ...

The capabilty for the gene expression to occur is not a change to the underlying genes, like a mutation in a reproductive cell is. The capability for this expression to occur is inherent in the sperm's DNA already, so there is nothing new for it to aquire at all.

This is my understanding of the biology of it at any rate.

This has been shown to be true in mice studies, where low protein diets in the fathers led to the children developing higher cholesterol levels than children who were conceived when mice ate a more balanced diet, even when the different child generations were on the same diet. It will only be a matter of time before this is shown to be true with physical characteristics as well, as the thumb study is one example of. It may be small effects from one generation to another but there are plenty of examples in the animal kingdom that say otherwise. Dog breeds that are bred in drastically different climates from what they originally were meant for, like a malamute that is from a line living in Hawaii, only take 2-3 generations to produce noticeably thinner coats, even in winter. Birds have grown completely different beaks in response to available food changing from nuts to deep flowers within ONE generation.

I would be interested in reading those studies though if you can refer me to them.

Sometimes it appears that individuals are changing when traits are being concentrated in the next generation, because more members of the previous generation survived and were able to pass them on. This does not mean at any individual gene's or genotype changed but rather the proportion of them in the population as a whole changed.

I personally believe there is more to evolution than meets the eye, although What they are proposing though is pretty far out. But it would be nice indeed if it could occur!

[Razz]

I would prefer to avoid the beans and just get my fiber from vegetables.

[Larry Roseman]

And I wanted to add that if the whole calorie counting thing is too much trouble, to eat enough, but not too much,

Calorie light foods you can eat more of; calorie dense foods, less of.

What''s extra good about vegetablles is that you can eat almost an unlimted amount of them.

Taste is another thing, spicing helps, and a variety of cooking methods and sauces (a spoonful or two).

[Larry Roseman]

Slizardman ...

This should be another thread on another board probably but I checked out wiki on the

inheritance matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weismann_barrier

This stuff is over my head to understand completely - so far that it is

over the part of my head it is over But I can see where you are coming from now.

Certain expressions of certain of the body's genes in certain certain

circumstances, may be passed on. There are lots of ifs ands and buts

involved, but it has been shown to occur in a limited way under certain conditions.

Whether this is involved in thumbs is another question though

Good point though, worth being aware of. Thanks!

[William Bateson]

Just to be clear, if your goal is truly to gain muscle mass than tailor your workouts to that end. Just about every person whose opinion I respect (Ido, Robb, Matt, etc..) has had to remind people not to stretch themselves to thin. What I mean is, if your goal is to gain lean mass, than drop the crossfit and JJ. How are they helping you reach your goals? If you really want to put on mass, than just perform the minimum of exercise to do so and get plenty of rest. Deadlifts, squats, dips, pullups etc.. should be all you need. You shouldn't need to perform metcons to stay lean; you already are lean, you are eating in a way that promotes leanness, don't confuse your body with excess work that it must adapt and recover from. If you want to keep those workouts in, go for it, just know your results will probably fall beneath your expectations. Diet, rest, and purposeful workouts will always be the key to reaching goals.

Some advice in regards to your diet based off of my experiences and what I've read:

There is likely no need to alter your diet based on amount of activity on a daily basis.

Fruit in the form of berries would be acceptable, though probably less desirable than starches.

Focus carbs around workouts, if you didn't workout than spreading throughout the day is probably a safe bet.

You don't need 3g/1lb BW of protein.

Avocados are a great source of additional fat, I eat one a day.

If you stick to ample meats and vegetables, controlled fruits and starches, and minimal nuts and calorie containing drinks, you will be setting yourself up with a good chance of reaching physical and body comp goals.

Again this is all n=1, my experiences and readings, you must alter your diet based on your results.

[Eddie Stelling]

Once again thank you very much! I think I am going to lay off the Metcon for a little while and work on putting back on some lean mass! I want to do this by gymnastics/body weight training only with the exception of maybe some deadlifting, bench press and squating. This way I am not only putting on muscle but gaining strength in my gymnsatics ability. I am adding an orange to breakfast, and a sweet potatoe/brown rice to lunch and dinner, and obiviously vary the types of meat and veggies I eat. Thanks again guys! Sorry I have nothing to offer on your genetics talk!! I am an engineer yall are over my head in that department!

[Joshua Naterman]

Future: No problem, and you are welcome! I don't understand it all either, I am still a bit amazed by all of this, I mean it's fairly new knowledge. Goes completely in the face of much of what was believed up until not quite 10 years ago I believe, and this stuff isn't exactly making front line news.

BlLL: That was a great summary. One thing I would add is that purely concentric (NOT plyometric) explosive work with extremely high speeds and fairly low loads is an excellent way to increase hypertrophy (and make sure it's functional mass) without depressnig the body. Concentric muscle damage is repaired within hours, so you can actually get away with 3-4 sessions of explosive work in a 16 hour day nearly every day with no problem if it is 100% concentric. I'm not suggesting that kind of density, but it really is 100% possible for a drug free athlete to train like this, in fact it would be almost ideal for strength/speed sport training.

A simple way to use that is to just use the bar for power snatches with a straight leg catch and try to drive the bar through the roof. Cleans are not really a waste for this kind of training but since you're going to get much more velocity going with snatches in more muscles per rep, making them more efficient than cleans, but cleans are great too. Cleans are much harder to control eccentric loading on since most gyms don't let you drop the weights, and trying to super explosively clean an empty bar is either going to go through your teeth or straight into a snatch anyways, so in my opinion bar snatch is a great thing to do this with. I have found single leg deadlifts and SLS jumps from a seated position to be great, as well as deck squat jumps. Finally, an explosive push up off of a bench press bar or a smith machine is excellent as well. All of these are super easy to perform nearly 100% concentrically, with truly minimal eccentric loading. Just 1-2 sets of 5 reps in the warm up is all it takes.

[Eddie Stelling]

Very interesting Slizz. So I can build more muscle by doing the eplosive portion of a movement only? Wow, I thought for sure that negatives along with tempo reps where you explode up and lower down slower would build more. So I should eat a lot, eat clean, cut down on the metcon, do the FSP + WOD, and work in cocentric movements. I am mainly concerned with my chest so I definitely have been trying to hit some chest lately.

I meant to ask what does Bill mean by "controlled fruits and starches"? I hate to pry, but can I possibly get a quick list of fruits and starches to eat and a quick explanation of "controlled"? I was assuming that I should still avoid grain and get starches from sweet potatoes and brown rice. Is this still true?

[William Bateson]

For fruits I would say stick to things like berries, grapes, and bananas; starches go with potatoes and rice. So that covers the quality, as far as quantity goes though the answers are less concrete. I would say start with what would amount to a "handful" of fruits/starches with meals 2-3 times a day. Feel good? Try more. Feel bad? Try less. Rinse and repeat till you find a good mix of performance and body comp markers to meet your goals.

[Larry Roseman]

Just to be clear, if your goal is truly to gain muscle mass than tailor your workouts to that end. Just about every person whose opinion I respect (Ido, Robb, Matt, etc..) has had to remind people not to stretch themselves to thin. What I mean is, if your goal is to gain lean mass, than drop the crossfit and JJ. How are they helping you reach your goals? If you really want to put on mass, than just perform the minimum of exercise to do so and get plenty of rest. Deadlifts, squats, dips, pullups etc.. should be all you need. You shouldn't need to perform metcons to stay lean; you already are lean, you are eating in a way that promotes leanness, don't confuse your body with excess work that it must adapt and recover from. If you want to keep those workouts in, go for it, just know your results will probably fall beneath your expectations. Diet, rest, and purposeful workouts will always be the key to reaching goals.

Some advice in regards to your diet based off of my experiences and what I've read:

There is likely no need to alter your diet based on amount of activity on a daily basis.

Fruit in the form of berries would be acceptable, though probably less desirable than starches.

Focus carbs around workouts, if you didn't workout than spreading throughout the day is probably a safe bet.

You don't need 3g/1lb BW of protein.

Avocados are a great source of additional fat, I eat one a day.

If you stick to ample meats and vegetables, controlled fruits and starches, and minimal nuts and calorie containing drinks, you will be setting yourself up with a good chance of reaching physical and body comp goals.

Again this is all n=1, my experiences and readings, you must alter your diet based on your results.

Bill: Agree on the focus aspect. When you say no need to alter diet based on daily activites, do you mean in quality or quantity? It's natural to eat more if you're more active. And I guess he should be eating a surpus anyway for bulking so there should be no reason to hold back - or should there be?

Eddie: To me, part of the joy of athletics is being able to eat whatever you want, as long as you are not intolerant or alergic to it of course. And that determination, of what you are intolerant of, should be me made by a professional or by yourself - not a guy on a website selling a system based on sketchy theories. Ultimately it's up to you to decide what to eat - use your brain and your gut feelings That's what they are there for...

That said, I think Bill's approach makes sense overall.

Anyway sorry for going on tangents earlier ... my name should be tangentman.

[William Bateson]

Future: As far as I'm concerned quality should never be altered. My comment though pertains to the idea that calories or protein should be X or Y higher/lower depending on how much work you did that day, eating according to hunger should pretty much take care of it. On a larger scale, if you are significantly ramping up the workouts over a week or month, THAN a corresponding increase in calories or protein may be warranted.

And although athletics may allow you eat whatever you want while maintaining relatively good body comp, your overall health can still stuffer with poor food quality.

[Larry Roseman]

Future: As far as I'm concerned quality should never be altered. My comment though pertains to the idea that calories or protein should be X or Y higher/lower depending on how much work you did that day, eating according to hunger should pretty much take care of it. On a larger scale, if you are significantly ramping up the workouts over a week or month, THAN a corresponding increase in calories or protein may be warranted.

And although athletics may allow you eat whatever you want while maintaining relatively good body comp, your overall health can still stuffer with poor food quality.

I agee it is a natural response. Though to increase bulk, you may need to eat *more* than you actually hunger for I'd imagine.

It''s not someting that I've intentionally attempted to do to can't speak from experience.

The key word is *want* to eat - not always what I feel or would like to