Training IC During FSP?

Hello all, it's me again with ANOTHER question

Actually 2 questions: I can hold normal support position for more than 60s quite easily now (RTO, arms locked) So I always substitute it for L-sit Support during my FSP, is this ok or should I still train normal support?

Secondly is it ok to train straight arm IC strength during FSP (as in video) or will that just deccrease my strength in my workout, I don't do this every day that I train my FSP but 2 or 3 times a week. I havn't noticed any particuar strength decrease but would like to hear what people think

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Coach says that a prereq for training the IC is a RTO locked elbow handstand. So the answer is that you shouldn't be training anything with the IC until you can do that. There's a list of progressions somewhere that Coach gave that work up to the ring handstand.

Getinthecar said:

Razz said:

Just do some searching around the forum, this is probably the most commonly asked question Make sure your elbows are ready aswell.. coach has a post about elbow prep somewhere.

True!, you should really do a propper warmup.

I have got it here by the way

with the series listed below. During all of these steps pressure should be felt on the biceps. If this pressure is not felt, then continue working that variation until you are strong enough to execute it correctly.

Elbow Preparation Series for Iron Cross Work:

1) XR support hold - Focusing on elbows locked and straight is critical here.

a) It is also quite acceptable to insert both XR support swings and XR swinging supports into this phase. 10 repetitions of large XR swinging supports can be especially challenging, as well as a lot of fun , while struggling to maintain the correct position.

2) XR L-sit.

3) XR 1/2 press - During this element, the athlete will press up as high as possible into a half press HS maintaining completely locked elbows and rings turned out at all times. Do not attempt to press higher than it is possible for you to maintain the correct arm/elbow position. Please note that this is an essential element in this progression.

4) XR HS - There should be a substantial degree of pressure on the biceps during a correctly performed XR HS. If this pressure is not present, in all likelihood either the elbows are bent or the rings are not turned out.

5) XR Planche variations - Some individuals may find that they are physically strong enough to proceed directly from XR HS work to the iron cross training as planche training can be a time consuming proposition. However for those who see it through, achieving a solid planche prior to beginning serious iron cross work will pay substantial dividends in the long term.

6) XR Iron Cross work.

Simultaneously alongside with the above progressions; the athlete may also engage in elbow supported iron cross static holds and iron cross pulls.

Also my question isn't wether or not I am ready for this training but if including this form of training during my FSP is wise.

You know what? I never noticed that last line in Coaches progression before! LOL

Anyways, I'm not sure what "elbow supported" is. Does that mean bent elbows? Or one of those devices where is increases the leverage, like putting your arms through the rings?

At any rate, it still seems like you are getting ahead of yourself, adding in another FSP when you can't even do the basic ones yet.

Breaks said:

Also my question isn't wether or not I am ready for this training but if including this form of training during my FSP is wise.

Breaks i think those are essentially the same question.

You'll have a chance to ask the man himself in person soon.

You can do it with arms through the straps in your FSP warmup. Half your max like all the other FSP. I believe this is what's meant by elbow supported; a decrease of the length of the lever in order to minimize strain on the elbow joint.

trianglechoke7 said:

At any rate, it still seems like you are getting ahead of yourself, adding in another FSP when you can't even do the basic ones yet.

The basic what can't I do?

According to coach I am training correctly I am pretty far through his IC progression already.

Razz I have some of those devices for decreasing the leverage on the IC so I can use them instead.

Mr Brady said:

Breaks i think those are essentially the same question. You'll have a chance to ask the man himself in person soon.

I guess I am not explaining myself well

A while back I posted a video of FSP Slizzardman suggested I don't do 30s German Hang holds pre workout as they will decrease my effectiveness in the work out. My question here is wether the IC prep is in a similar category.

I am going to continue to do a little straight arm IC prep in my workouts occasionally as the above quote from Coach says to do as well as working though the IC progression.

My question effectively is, do you think this IC prep (possibly using the device to decrease leverage) is well placed as part of FSP cycle or would be better as part of a main workout or done as a stand along training session done with IC progression and some HS work for example?

The reason german hangs decrease strength is because it's a relaxed stretch. Iron cross is not and if you stay with half your max time for elbow supported holds it should not decrease your workout strength.

Fantastic! Thanks It all works so much better when I communicate myself better

Breaks said:

trianglechoke7 said:

At any rate, it still seems like you are getting ahead of yourself, adding in another FSP when you can't even do the basic ones yet.

The basic what can't I do?

Well I looked at your other vids and it looked like you are still on tuck variations of front and back lever. But maybe Coach has his athletes do IC work when they are just starting.

Ah ok, yes I am still primarily working flat tuck FL and BL but can do straddles of both and a full lay FL (I just don't train 15-30s holds on them as I can only hold about 5-10s at the moment), i'm pretty sure that I havn't read that I should arrest all other development until I have full lay FL and BL 60s holds though ;P

One thing that has struck me about this forum is the diversity of abilities we have, some people rate FL and BL as easy moves and MUs as the Holy Grail, some like myslef find MUs reasonably attainable with proper training but take longer on FL and BL. It is all very interesting, either way, Razz answered my original question (thanks Razz) and I will be training the IC as prescribed by Coach and including some straight arm IC strength in my FSP cycle. Particualrly as I have already fulfilled all of Coach's prerequisites, if it transpires that I have to have a full lay FL and BL before doing anything at all on IC (which I am pretty certain is not the case) then i'll stop.

It has not been stated for BL, but generally for the positions of straddle, 1/2 lay and lay are 15s for planche and front lever.

Breaks, I would advise against working the IC with elbows supported until you have started working a planche. I am not so sure your shoulders are ready to handle the demands of even a supported cross until you at least have a solid ring handstand. Something to note is that the supported cross will not get you a real IC. It is a great tool to focus on the shoulders but you will never develop the elbow strength required.

I also do not believe you will see any strength gains or benefits from working the supported cross. It is mostly used for someone who almost or does have a cross. They use it as a supplement exercise so they can get more time in the position without injuring the elbows.

Ok, i'll stick with the IC progression above as a supplement to regular training and keep IC work out until I am XR HSing. Thanks for the advice

Razz said:

You can do it with arms through the straps in your FSP warmup. Half your max like all the other FSP. I believe this is what's meant by elbow supported; a decrease of the length of the lever in order to minimize strain on the elbow joint.

I've decided to call em Copper Crosses, lol. They are a fun party trick, and oddly enough, I am strong enough to lower into one (but not strong enough to even do a HeSPU?).

Hah nick that's screwed up strength ratios! It is a good trick though

The supported crosses are not extremely difficult to hold, but without the proper shoulder strength they will eventually lead to injury.

Dillon Zrike said:

The supported crosses are not extremely difficult to hold, but without the proper shoulder strength they will eventually lead to injury.

I rarely do them, and when I do it is not to train, it is to show off. Of course that only works around those ignorant of gymnastics, but then most people are.

I know my shoulders are weak and I would probably hurt myself if I tried training it for real.

Breaks said:

One thing that has struck me about this forum is the diversity of abilities we have, some people rate FL and BL as easy moves and MUs as the Holy Grail, some like myslef find MUs reasonably attainable with proper training but take longer on FL and BL. It is all very interesting.

Second this, I can do a no kipping muscle up on rings (proper length) with a 20 pound vest on for reps (3-4), but struggle with the tuck FL and advanced tuck BL.

Hope the info on the pre requirements for these moves we'll get on the seminar will help get things going. FL = HARD!

What the heck Christian, those are strong as muscle ups!

Thanks Razz.

Guess which was my most worked move untill i got smart and started doing the WOD's... :roll:

Dillon, I don't see how supported iron crosses could not build strength if you are smart about increasing the load. I have a tool that a lot of coaches, at least the ones that I have spoken with, use to build static strength for the cross. You have around 10 or so levels of difficulty with the higher or more difficult levels of course being closer to the hands. You simply loop the straps through a pair of rings and clip on carabiner like device into one of the 10 slots. Which slot you clip into depends on your strength level. Just thought I'd ask. If this is not a good method what is an alternative to static cross training besides having a spotter? Thanks in advance!

Ooden,

They are a great tool when properly used by someone who is ready. The point is if you can not do at least a handstand with rings turned out, you have no business messing with crosses. I would even require a straddle planche before working crosses. They are extremely strenuous on the elbows. As much time as I have spent working crosses, I have spent preparing my elbows for them.

Dillon

Ooden, I have a pair of ring trainers that are possibly similar if not the same as yours. I bought them on sale but decided to wait on using them for crosses until I get way more into the ring strength. I haven't used them in about a year but when I was stronger back then, as I was using them for back roll to support on the lowest setting and I found they were really good for working this skill.

Honestly, I may just use bands and straps when I'm ready for crosses again.