Crossfit misusing gymnastics training. Like usual.

Coach Sommer said:

trianglechoke7 said:

... I can't agree, Coach. That is your purpose, along with mine, but not theirs. Their purpose is to use the movement for improving endurance. Given their goals, why is it improper to use it for that?

They really don't care about getting past basic ring elements as it would take time away from other qualities they want more.

Forgive me for being direct, however your thinking is still flawed on several counts.

1) Whether or not you agree does not change the simple fact that the workout listed above is an example of incorrect programming. Plain and simple. There is a reason that despite years of exposure to ring strength training, most fitness enthusiasts still possess the ring strength ability of a seven year old gymnast.

As I have said many times in the past, Gymnastic Strength Training™ is not a buffet where you simply get to choose the items which look most inviting at that particular moment. You MUST follow clear, concise progressions in your programming or you are merely spinning your wheels. At best you will make little to no progress; regardless of how hard you work. At worst you are courting nearly certain injury.

2) Endurance is increased by performing with submaximal loads; not maximal. Attempting to build endurance by simultaneously increasing volume, intensity and load is a guaranteed path to injury. There is no distinction achieved in developing the ability to blow yourself up.

If someone would like to develop superior strength endurance, they must first develop superior strength. Strength always comes first. For an example of how correct programming in your Gymnastic Strength Training™ will also increase strength endurance, please review Appendix C on page 187 in BtGB; "120 Muscle-ups in 15 Minutes". You may find it especially instructive to note that prior to that workout, my athletes focused solely on increasing their maximal strength (reps of 3-5) and yet completely crushed that particular assignment.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach, when I first posted to gymgreg and you I had not seen the the demo videos. I didn't know what a muscle up handstand pushup was. I was initially referring to his comments about muscle ups. Now that I seen the move they were doing, I would have to say that it looks very dangerous to be doing that in a highly fatigued state. I think you and I may of been talking past each other here.

slizzardman said:

I too will be smashing crossfit games. It's going to be fun being one of the biggest guys out there and still wrecking everyone in endurance as well as strength! All while wearing a GB t-shirt.

Hmmm, I'd like to see this. Will you both not do anything but the GB WODs and no specific preparation before the games? If you do specific prep then I won't be surprised if you do well. If not, then you will both be humbled.

trianglechoke7 said:

Hmmm, I'd like to see this. Will you both not do anything but the GB WODs and no specific preparation before the games? If you do specific prep then I won't be surprised if you do well. If not, then you will both be humbled.

Well, I don't plan on trying this year, and next year I will be deployed during that time frame, so 2013 is the earliest I could make a run at it. For now, I am going to stick with worrying about maximal strength and explosiveness (taking a break from that one at the moment though), and a small bit of medium distance (400m-1.5mi) running.

Of course when the time gets nearer I will throw it some more CF-like metcons, but they will be my own programming mostly. The majority of my training base would still be GB WODs and Olympic Lifts though.

I just watched some of the demo videos. I am stupefied.

biomieg said:

I just watched some of the demo videos. I am stupefied.

Yeah, I was reading this thread for awhile, but I never imagined that "THAT" Is how they were doing it!

I mean, I am pretty low on the proverbial "High Scores" For strength list, But with that form, I could pretty easily do that WOD!

Wow...That was sickening...

trianglechoke7 said:

slizzardman said:

I too will be smashing crossfit games. It's going to be fun being one of the biggest guys out there and still wrecking everyone in endurance as well as strength! All while wearing a GB t-shirt.

Hmmm, I'd like to see this. Will you both not do anything but the GB WODs and no specific preparation before the games? If you do specific prep then I won't be surprised if you do well. If not, then you will both be humbled.

You'd be surprised at how well GB prepares you for the games, quite honestly. I've looked at the events list and the results, and I am quite positive I can be fairly competitive even as I am now, though I am nothing compared to what I will be in a few years. Now that I have my training more properly planned out I am starting to feel mega strong again! Very exciting!

I will be doing some basic lifting, O-lifts + deadlift and some squatting, but it won't be a huge part of my routine. Even without training, I'm pretty strong in those for a beginner. I can powerclean my bw (225) from the floor to a nearly straight leg catch with no problem. Once I learn the form I should have no issue with cleans or snatches. Kettlebells will be in my warm up, but the bulk of training will be GB. You can't actually do specific prep before the games because there is no event list released prior to the games. That's my single favorite thing about the crossfit games. However, on our basic strength days I will be doing some higher rep training outside of the WODs, but using GB exercises.

When you get to the seminars you'll realize that what we see here is the very entry level beginning part of the GB program. Most of us aren't ready for any more than that. However, eventually our WARM ups will include multiple rope climbs with no legs, just to name one thing. There are similar increases in difficulty for many other body parts. Skill in O-lifts and to some extent kettlebell lifts will still have to be learned, of course, but the strength will be there for those who follow the GB program correctly.

If you watched the first demo vid, it really was just terrible.

Austin Malleolo does a decent job with fairly strict form on the MUHSPU. The rest are pretty meh.

I think when I titled the post I did it wrong and should have titled it "CF misuses a legit gymnastic exercise today."

I am still unable to roll to shoulder stand if for no other reason than fear... So these guys are still way ahead of me...

Nick_EOD said:

slizzardman said:

I too will be smashing crossfit games. It's going to be fun being one of the biggest guys out there and still wrecking everyone in endurance as well as strength!

There are more than a few big guys who did quite well there. Dave Lipson (dude has a 500lbs+ front squat), Rich Froning Jr(would have come in first if he knew how to climb a rope), Jason Khalipa, Rob Orlando, Matt Chan (won the USAW/CF thing) are all probably as big as you, or close to it. Big guys aren't a complete rarity in CF.

Edit: Checked up on it, and some of those guys aren't quite as big as you, but I think that is a height thing... They are still pretty big for their size.

That's true, I'm certainly not saying they are weak or that they are tiny. I have looked at the stats and I'm one of the biggest guys out there. I won't win every event, but totals are what matter. 500 lb front squat certainly isn't in my 2 year future lol!!!

You would probably do fairly well over all. I have no expectation of ever coming in the top group, but it would be awesome just to make it through all the qualifiers and make it to the games period. Part of that really depends on who the other people in your qualifiers are. You are definitely gonna have a harder time if you live in SoCal for example, where a lot of the big guns train.

That's true. You definitely have to base your qual performance on what the top is, not on your region! I think I could get at least through regionals here for sure.

I agree, even GOING to the games would be really fun and awesome, just because we aren't cross-fitters!

ouch...can we forward this recent WOD to their mainsite?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4970

for how to correctly use a ring hspu in a WOD

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/007281.html

Again, they are trying to make gymnastics workout, but fail to understand the concept of good form... At least this one isn't very dangerous.

This is the 3rd WOD i've seen in recently handstands walks. Almost certain the will be in the games. I still suck at these, but at least my legs are straight and together...

30 muscle ups? Geeze

They all kip like crazy, it's not that hard compared to doing 3 rounds of even 6 slow and strict MU. This won't do anything for their long term strength development, but it's definitely not the worst they've done hahaha!

Edit: The handstand walking and rolls are good ideas, it's too bad they don't just use that for warm up instead. It was pretty funny to watch the guy get totally owned by the girl in HS walking!

Coach Sommer said:

... Not that I am a defender of Crossfit or anything, but you can do anything for any reason you want. The only point is in the intention of the performer ...

This is incorrect.

The purpose of these movements is to get stronger. Performing them incorrectly will greatly reduce, if not completely negate that effect. This is the primary reason that despite gymnastics rings having been popular in the mainstream for years now, most fitness enthusiasts have still not progessed past the most basic strength elements.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I Like what you said coach and this is what I teach at my crossfit.

One of the famous HS WOD's of CF.

j6UmiQM0YWM

100' of walking in a HS, 2m in a HS, then 15 HSPU (well CF usually does HeSPU).

Roge does this all free though and the HSPU are on parallettes (though he does a sort of kip technique in the air by piking at his legs)

Lauren Glassi http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitSC_Galassi_HandstandWOD.wmvoriginally did this WOD a year or so ago. To note, Lauren was a L9 gymnast and Junior Elite Power tumbler besides an acrobat. Roge above was a gymnast in college besides a fellow colleague and friend of myself and Coach Sommer.

This workout is brutal.

the 3Mu to HSPU intrigues me. I think in GB we have a movement like that but it's a HSPU out of the MU. Gallimore is the name or in the family.

I'm only intrigued because last year I had in my routine MU to bent arm press to HS. Not quite a full ROM HSPU but I enjoyed it. I was not able to push out of shoulderstand to HS typically. It's not something that I could do now. Wait, they push to HS using their legs, too? Hmm, this isn't as hard as it sounds people. Big difference between doing it free or just with the legs sliding on the straps or wrapping around and assisting. Maybe I can try tomorrow.

Getting back to this why don't we see if we can Allan to compete after he retires as a gymnast. My friend's kid, Gabe is an ex L9/10 and quite a firebreather and I'm sure he could do this WOD without any problem.

That is a ridiculous WOD. I think it is fair to say that anyone not on the level of Coach's athletes would find that one challenging by the third round if performing actual HSPU or HeSPU without the kip. I am actually curious as to how Coach thinks his athletes would handle that kind of volume. After watching Coach Jeff rep out 12-15 XR HSPU free balancing (no straps) like it was no big deal I am pretty sure he could wreck this WOD, but he's just godly strong.

Roge is doing Gatherings, going by Ido's naming. Total HSPU count is 0 or 1. I've done Gatherings for fun and I can tell you that they are way, way, way easier than HeSPU. They're great for explosiveness but seriously... can't hold a candle to the non-kipping HSPU variations. To see a former college gymnast struggle with a workout like this makes me feel like Crossfit has absolutely no idea how to build its members up in terms of gymnastic strength. That is just nuts.

Even so, anyone actually completing that WOD as prescribed, or close to it like Roge, has my respect. That is brutal indeed. It's too bad that Crossfit seems to have no interest in creating a solid developmental program for gymnastic skill and strength.

I couldn't even watch the whole video, saw about a minute then turned off.... Was expecting to actually hear the sound of her elbow tendon snap.... followed soon after by her shoulder...

Roge is not the gymnast he was 15 years ago. While he is still pretty strong as fitness enthusiasts go, he is not at the level he was in college. Nor is he as flexible. I am sure coach's athletes could crush this like that MU/air squat WOD back in 2004. I'm pretty sure collegiate athletes would crush it as well, like the guys I saw the UCBerkeley intramural yesterday. There is a huge difference between guys like Jeff&Gregor and the fitness enthusiasts like Cisco, Roge, Steve Low, Jim of Beastskills. It's just a whole nother level. To note, Cisco is a pull freak beyond those guys. Even Valentin with his cross and planche is a far ways away from Jeff and Gregor or any awesome collegiate gymnast.

That is brutal indeed. It's too bad that Crossfit seems to have no interest in creating a solid developmental program for gymnastic skill and strength.

There is a big difference between CFHQ and the mainpage WOD and others in CF prefer. Besides Tucker's gymnastic certs and the Drills&SkillsWOD, there is some desire; but it is not at the same focus or level as GB. That requires a far more dedicated purpose and planning of programming. My friend always tell me I should be doing CF more when I drop by his box in contrast to my GB based programming, even if I tack on Oly or 531. Yes, he tells his members I am part of the anti CF rebellion.

I very much doubt your elbow is going to snap by doing this workout which amuses me to hear. Mainly your shoulders die out. I managed to finish 1 round and was on my 2nd before I had to stop because I got a muscle pull from the HeSPU when I lowered down to my head a little fast and an all too common, reoccurring muscle pull happened in an area of my shoulders and back that can happen sometimes.

And Slizz, do you really think you could keep with Jeff from Seattle? Sorry, I think and respect the world of you but it's way different. I only dabble in CF nowadays, but it's one thing seeing it online and doing, especially the multiple per days. Seriously, the CF comps are pretty insane. However, the WOD's at the Games are becoming shorter and shorter which might be towards your favor.

If you really cared to, which I may myself be interested or not, the regional qualifier WOD's will be posted online this year, probably in early spring. Or take a day and try doing one of the days from the sectional or regionals last year. I wouldn't let it interfere with your program but it's a learning experience. I have let it interfere with my programming far too much the past couple of years. Personally, I just like a grueling painful workout. It reminds me of wrestling or H2H fights and I'm an andrenaline junkie. It's why I still like CF though some of the stuff is pretty inane and stupid and I could care less besides when it goes beyond safety concerns.

Blairbob said:

And Slizz, do you really think you could keep with Jeff from Seattle? Sorry, I think and respect the world of you but it's way different. I only dabble in CF nowadays, but it's one thing seeing it online and doing, especially the multiple per days. Seriously, the CF comps are pretty insane. However, the WOD's at the Games are becoming shorter and shorter which might be towards your favor.

If you really cared to, which I may myself be interested or not, the regional qualifier WOD's will be posted online this year, probably in early spring. Or take a day and try doing one of the days from the sectional or regionals last year. I wouldn't let it interfere with your program but it's a learning experience. I have let it interfere with my programming far too much the past couple of years. Personally, I just like a grueling painful workout. It reminds me of wrestling or H2H fights and I'm an andrenaline junkie. It's why I still like CF though some of the stuff is pretty inane and stupid and I could care less besides when it goes beyond safety concerns.

I like the concept behind crossfit, but you can't really call something crossfit if they are not doing what HQ suggests. I will have to check out the regional qualifier WODs when they post up.

I don't know, I can guarantee you that I can not O-lift with Jeff! The lifts are too technical and my expertise there is a rank novice. All I can do is a very, very ugly power clean with a straight leg catch. I can do the full clean as well, but my second pull is an issue... I don't know how to limp out my arms yet. On top of that, I don't know how to snatch or even jerk properly! With kettlebells, a few weeks of acclimation and I would be ok I think. I am fairly sure that Jeff would currently have me beat in anaerobic endurance for sure, I mean I don't know what he does in WODs but he is in great shape.

As far as the crossfit WODs go, my body has always adapted well to that kind of workload but it has been a while so I would need to re-acclimate. I did look at the breakdowns of the competitions and I am fairly certain that I could handle that without too much of a problem, but again my body has always seemed to handle high volumes of work well. I recover strength quickly between multiple bouts. I do not know how things will turn out, but one thing I am considering doing is a 2k Concept 2 rowing ergometer race in February! I am already at around 7:15 detrained. Apparently the top guys are doing under 6:30, but I think I can reach that mark by race time. That's my goal, anyways. I think I need the Buddy Lee jump rope system to train my anaerobic endurance at home for that one hahaha! I wish I had a rower. I'm not taking the training ultra seriously, but once the school gym opens back up I'll get on the rowers 2-3x per week.

I agree, I don't think elbows would be a huge problem... I just see my shoulders being fried. That's a pretty incredible volume of shoulder work!

slizzardman said:

I like the concept behind crossfit, but you can't really call something crossfit if they are not doing what HQ suggests.

I disagree with both of these.

The current concept behind Crossfit (HQ) is High Volume, Low intensity. Whatever the exercise may be, they are almost always that way, with the exception of the occasional (once a week if that) max strength WOD. This is no way to get stronger, and is the reason that almost every high level cross-fitter and decent affiliate adds a "strength-bias" to the program. Because HQ's current concept of CF is generally trash, and is a recipe for very little strength gains and high risk of injury.

On the other hand, I think you can do CF but not follow what HQ suggests currently. If you follow one of the first journal articles titled What is Fitness? but do not follow the garbage put out by HQ, you can by all means still say you are doing CF. It is in fact the original idea behind CF, yet it seems today they have strayed so far from even their own roots.

A funny note is they have press to handstand as one of the critical elements to learn for CF. When's the last time anyone has seen presses in a CF WOD? Most CFers I know don't even know what a press to handstand is...

Nick_EOD said:

slizzardman said:

I like the concept behind crossfit, but you can't really call something crossfit if they are not doing what HQ suggests.

I disagree with both of these.

The current concept behind Crossfit (HQ) is High Volume, Low intensity. Whatever the exercise may be, they are almost always that way, with the exception of the occasional (once a week if that) max strength WOD. This is no way to get stronger, and is the reason that almost every high level cross-fitter and decent affiliate adds a "strength-bias" to the program. Because HQ's current concept of CF is generally trash, and is a recipe for very little strength gains and high risk of injury.

On the other hand, I think you can do CF but not follow what HQ suggests currently. If you follow one of the first journal articles titled What is Fitness? but do not follow the garbage put out by HQ, you can by all means still say you are doing CF. It is in fact the original idea behind CF, yet it seems today they have strayed so far from even their own roots.

A funny note is they have press to handstand as one of the critical elements to learn for CF. When's the last time anyone has seen presses in a CF WOD? Most CFers I know don't even know what a press to handstand is...

I should have been more specific!

I meant that the idea of using different training implements and modalities to train the specific aspects of athletic development that they are BEST used for is a great idea and has always been the core of high level training. Even the old strongmen did this. To me, that is the idea of crossfit. I could be way off about that. After reading the journal, while they are way way off base about their attitude towards Mel Siff's ideas (saying that high carb diets are recipes for heart disease. If that is true, why isn't Asia one large heart attack? FRUCTOSE is the primary issue. Not the only one, but the major one. There's a big difference between high fructose diets and high carb diets) I definitely have to say that you can not ever have a guaranteed chance to attain those goals without having a systematic approach to each goal.

Develop the capacity of a novice 800-meter track athlete, gymnast, and weightlifter and

you’ll be fitter than any world-class runner, gymnast, or weightlifter.

They are also completely wrong about their energy system breakdown. Where the hell did they get these ideas from??? I don't even want to type everything they have screwed up in there.

Anyhow, if you look at their "energy system breakdowns" you will see that they are actually sticking almost exactly to it, which is why they are not developing their abilities in the strength and power categories to the degree that they should. If we have to start breaking things apart into different schools then we have created a category, not a system. It's like saying I take Kung Fu. What have you actually said? You've said you take martial arts. There are over 2000 styles of Kung Fu, and many are so different from each other that they share almost nothing in common with each other, while some are different only in philosophy but use the same movements and training methods. That just doesn't make sense to me. At this point, with their current organization, they are trying to say that if you work out you are crossfit. They try to umbrella everyone in. Good marketing, but completely false. If mainsite is going to be so different from the most successful affiliates in training recommendations then they should not be considered related as far as fitness goes. Well, that's how I feel about it anyways.

However, in fairness to Crossfit, of all the aspects of athletics strength-endurance and anaerobic endurance are the two most important things to have in most survival situations. If you have those, you have a pretty high level of aerobic fitness as well, and all of that together is what tends to keep people alive the most. SO in that sense the anaerobic endurance leaning of current day crossfit isn't terrible... it just isn't balanced.

I got into crossfit ( that ultimately led me here) because changing that enless spinning clases ( or eliptical or lat pull down or...) were leading me no where. Crosfit focus on gymnastics oly lifting and field and track were a big improvement over the standard BB template they stick at u at normal gyms.

Then I discovered this site and everything changed all over ... Again.( I knew of the problems of crossfit much later, I changed because of the dificulty to practice it at a normal gym + soreness!).

The good point of crossfit IMHO is the choice of exercises and equipment. They are far better than the tipical gym training.

Any way I rather be here!

They are definitely a step back in the right direction. It's just funny that many implement many globo-gym like systems for their counterculture gym affiliates.