just starting

hi everyone, i've recently started gymnastic training. i'm having fun with it, i got some rings for my garage and i've been working towards my first muscle up (it's the false grip that's holding me back just now) and doing handstand work against the wall as well as the planche progressions.

what i've been wondering is should i be doing a lot of flexibilty work to go with this? my groin flexibility (butterfly stretch) is pretty good, i can get my knees to the ground when i'm warmed up, but my hamstring flexibility is really bad. trying to bend over and touch my toes i'm still about 5 inches away. i think my groin flexibility is just developed through brazilian jiu jitsu.

so should i be working a lot on improving flexibility and if so could someone please give me some ideas about a good routine.

thanks very much

Andy

You should always work flexibility into your routine gymnast, grappler or not try to do it, even though most of us find it time consuming(I'm one of them), you should always work on flexibility, it's just another part of being physically fit.

As for a routine, stretch the major groups, the quads, shoulders especially for gymnastics, ankles, wrists, lower back, obliques, calves, chest, groin, hip flexors for gymnastics once again.

I think it would be a very good idea to distinguish between flexibility and mobility.

Flexibility is simply the range of motion at a certain joint. Mobility is the ability to perform an action in a desired range of motion. Mobility is what should be trained, not flexibility.

Further, flexibility at certain joints is not a good thing at all. Some joints need stability, others need mobility.

Anyway, instead of my badly paraphrasing, here are MOAR T-NATION LINKS!!!

(potentially family/work unsafe)

Mike Boyle's A Joint-by-Joint Approach to Training:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/a_jointbyjoint_approach_to_training&cr=

Mike Robertson's The Mobility-Stability Conundrum:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/the_mobilitystability_continuum&cr=

Eric Cressey's The Joint Health Checklist:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/the_joint_health_checklist&cr=

and supplementarily, Mike Boyle's 8 Essential Mobility Drills:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/the_essential_8_mobility_drills&cr=

The above is in suggested reading order and is quite a comprehensive guide to mobility/stability.

thanks guys.

some interesting reading there. so would this mean that rather than lack of flexibility the reason i can't touch my toes is perhaps lack of mobility in my hips? although having said that, i can quite easily pull my knee to my chest with a bent leg so that actually seems unlikely.

sorry if i've misunderstood ari, but how can i gain the ability to bend down and touch my toes with mobility/stability training rather than just flexibility work?

thanks,

Andy

kingofallkings said:

so would this mean that rather than lack of flexibility the reason i can't touch my toes is perhaps lack of mobility in my hips?

That's not what Mike Boyle et al. are saying. I think you would do well to go back and read those articles in greater depth.

kingofallkings said:

sorry if i've misunderstood ari, but how can i gain the ability to bend down and touch my toes with mobility/stability training rather than just flexibility work?

Firstly, you should ask yourself 'Is what is traditionally considered flexibility necessarily a good thing? If not (hint, that is the correct answer), then why do I want to have the ability to touch my toes (of course, you should probably eventually be able to do this, but for the sake of discussion...)? Of what is the ability to touch my toes a good measure? Injury prevention, good health or what?'

If for some bizarre reason, you are dead set on being able to touch your toes, go for it and do what you want to achieve that ability.

If instead you are looking for good health, injury prevention and so on, I think following the guidelines on developing mobility and stability in the appropriate joints as outlined in the above articles will do you well. The ability to touch your toes will probably eventually result, too.

Hi Andy,

Welcome to the forum.

It's quite common that hamstrings (and hip-flexors) become shortened in adults, since we spend so much time sitting down (in chairs) and do little to maintain our ROM. Most people could probably benefit from paying them some attention. I would say that you fall into that category and should add some specific stretching into your schedule (and not just 5 minutes at the end as a cool-down 2-3 times per week). There is plenty of good info in the relevant forum section (as you've probably found by now).

Specifically aiming to touch your toes isn't a great or accurate indication of hamstring/glute flexibility, since it is hard to measure the amount of flexion in the spine, or protraction of the shoulders. I would advise setting some goals that require an increase in active flexibility to achieve, and add stretching as one of the methods to aid in getting there. For example: L-sit, Hanging leg-lifts, etc ...I can't think of any goals that require hip-flexor flexibility off the top of my head ...so just stretch them between stretching your hamstrings for balance.

Maybe someone with more coaching experience could suggest additional/better goals?

Cheers,

George.

thanks george. Well i can currently raise my legs to a 90 degree L while hanging from a bar, so I could maybe start trying to increase this above 90 degrees until i can reach a V. Is this the sort of thing you mean?

thanks,

Andy

Hi,

Pretty much. If you're doing reps, keep the tempo controlled and maintain a second or so pause at the top. Also keep in mind that although this would be the measure of how you're doing ...you'll still need to do some stretching to make good gains.

You will probably find the following useful:

> http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1126#1126

> http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2121#2121

Cheers,

George.

Yeah, with the reps i've been using the 313 tempo that was recommended on this forum.

thanks for all your help,

Andy

Read this article and try the correction exercise described in it. Many people can touch their toes after doing it one time. Then keep doing it at least once a day to correct the pattern. Many problems that people think are mobility/flexibility are actually incorrect movement patterns.

In other words, when you perform a certain movement (ex. toe touch) certain muscles should provide stability (contract) and others should relax (lengthen). In a proper toe touch, your lower back, hamstings & calves should all relax, but over time, through bad habits, etc., we learn incorrect movement patterns and the body compenstes. This means that muscles that should lengthen contact to try to provide stability that should be coming from hip muscles (toe touch example).

If this interests you, look into Gray Cook's products. His "Athletic Body in Balance' has a 5 test screen to look for these patterns. He also developed a system call the Functional Movement Screen that is used to assess those movement patterns.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/445/

thanks Ryan, i'll give it a try and see if there's any improvement