Quick statics question

slizzardman said:

Ah. Ok. As for the SSC, for probably everything except for FL and L sit, yes it is almost certainly both the fastest AND the safest way. In fact, for Manna I think it's the ONLY way, but I don't know that for sure. FL COULD be approached from more of a strength perspective, but it's still not a great idea. You'll be too tired to get the most out of your WODs. Remember, this is a system that is meant to go together: FSP and WODs together. So, in that sense, SSC is absolutely the fastest way as well as the safest for everything. L sit I tend to say that SSC is the best way to go, but this one is heavily affected by flexibility, so flexibility training will help a bit.

I see, but like I told you let's just suppose for a moment that someone would just like to do the statics and that's it, no WOD's or anything else (for whatever reason), well maybe some FBE's here or there but nothing too hard, someone who would just like to get the planche and the front lever, back lever and the l-sit for example: what would be the difference in the way he trains them? Would you do more volume, intensity?

slizzardman said:

As for the HeSPU, you don't HAVE to stop in a dead headstand. It is a little harder if you do, but that's certainly not required. You just want to barely touch the ground with your head. No need to actually rest on it! The headstand reference is really a range of motion marker. As you start elevating your hands you will get closer and closer to a full ROM HSPU.

LOL I see Coach just explained this in less words.

Ok.

P.S.: I started doing the HeSPU's again the day before yesterday and I started to get very dizzy, I got a little dizzy the firt time I did them, and like the 3rd time I did them I was way dizzy and even felt like throwing up. What the heck? And I didn't do them without any rest or something like that, because I did rest a lot since I was only trying them out.

First in regards to the statics, if you train them with much more intensity you are very likely to end up injured. Straight arm movements are very hard on your tendons.

In regards to the HeSPUs; Are you breathing while doing them? Do you practice Handstands regularly? Not breathing while heavily exerting yourself can lead to dizziness, and if you don't do handstands regularly then just being upside down can make you dizzy.

Lavastine said:

First in regards to the statics, if you train them with much more intensity you are very likely to end up injured. Straight arm movements are very hard on your tendons.

It won't be too much, and it will always be doing 50% time, I just can't take this 1 minute thing for the whole day and I feel I'm progressing too slow, if at all.

Lavastine said:

In regards to the HeSPUs; Are you breathing while doing them? Do you practice Handstands regularly? Not breathing while heavily exerting yourself can lead to dizziness, and if you don't do handstands regularly then just being upside down can make you dizzy.

Yeah, I've always done HeSPU, well almost always for some time now, and handstands too, but I never got dizzy like I did last time. Handstands don't make me dizzy but for some reason adding a pushup does. And it was only a little more than a month that I hadn't done any pushups, but I always did handtands.

Deft-Mastery said:

Lavastine said:

First in regards to the statics, if you train them with much more intensity you are very likely to end up injured. Straight arm movements are very hard on your tendons.

It won't be too much, and it will always be doing 50% time, I just can't take this 1 minute thing for the whole day and I feel I'm progressing too slow, if at all.

...

Hey man, you can always do what you want. It's your body and nobody here is your parent. Maybe you are one of the lucky few who can do these statics alot faster and it will work out, but if it turns out you're not you'll be out of the game for months recovering.

And you didn't say if you were breathing during your HeSPUs, make sure you are breathing out on the way down.

Deft-Mastery said:

slizzardman said:

Ah. Ok. As for the SSC, for probably everything except for FL and L sit, yes it is almost certainly both the fastest AND the safest way. In fact, for Manna I think it's the ONLY way, but I don't know that for sure. FL COULD be approached from more of a strength perspective, but it's still not a great idea. You'll be too tired to get the most out of your WODs. Remember, this is a system that is meant to go together: FSP and WODs together. So, in that sense, SSC is absolutely the fastest way as well as the safest for everything. L sit I tend to say that SSC is the best way to go, but this one is heavily affected by flexibility, so flexibility training will help a bit.

I see, but like I told you let's just suppose for a moment that someone would just like to do the statics and that's it, no WOD's or anything else (for whatever reason), well maybe some FBE's here or there but nothing too hard, someone who would just like to get the planche and the front lever, back lever and the l-sit for example: what would be the difference in the way he trains them? Would you do more volume, intensity?

slizzardman said:

As for the HeSPU, you don't HAVE to stop in a dead headstand. It is a little harder if you do, but that's certainly not required. You just want to barely touch the ground with your head. No need to actually rest on it! The headstand reference is really a range of motion marker. As you start elevating your hands you will get closer and closer to a full ROM HSPU.

LOL I see Coach just explained this in less words.

Ok.

If you aren't doing the WODs I would highly suggest that you do some other well-balanced strength training program as your main workout. The FSP are quite tough on the joints, and trying to work higher intensity will simply end up causing more damage than your body can heal. If you're completely healthy right now, that process could literally go on for 3-5 months or maybe longer before you actually feel the pain, and you WILL make progress the whole time. Then, once you feel it, you'll be in the exact situation I was in, and every day that you train with that slight pain that slowly gets worse will add far more than just an extra day to your layoff, not to mention your recovery.

As lavastine said, it is certainly possible that you may never get hurt, but the chances are low. If you like gambling with what would be unacceptable odds in a casino, that is ok. To be clear, the rule in gambling is that you never take a bet unless the gain to loss ratio is a minimum of 2-1 AND you have a certain percentage of winning. I don't remember the exact percentage, but it's right around 50%. That is an absolute minimum that even many professional gamblers will tell you is not good enough. That 50% chance of you getting hurt is a big, big under-estimation based on the experiences of the board across weight categories, and I can tell you for sure that you don't have a chance at making twice the gains by working higher intensity. In fact, the faster your muscles get strong the higher your risk of injury with the statics goes.

I don't mind if you disregard what I'm saying. I disregarded it myself at first, and here I am doing great after a year of layoff and recovery. From here forward I am virtually guaranteed stellar progress. If you waste that year too, or 6 months if you're lucky, you'll probably just come out of it smarter just like I did.

I don't think there's much more to say on the matter. You'll have to do your own independent research on tendon healing rates and muscle tissue healing rates with google and decide for yourself what is worth it and what is not.

For informational purposes only: I used to have the same mentality. "This takes too long!" I was completely wrong. It took me over a year just to get that through my head, and to stop looking for instant results. Now I'm making progress faster than when I was younger AND more dedicated. I'm just one old man, so enjoy the story. You can read my early posts from my first 6 months here to see what I thought then and compare with what I have come to know as of now.

slizzardman said:

If you aren't doing the WODs I would highly suggest that you do some other well-balanced strength training program as your main workout. The FSP are quite tough on the joints, and trying to work higher intensity will simply end up causing more damage than your body can heal. If you're completely healthy right now, that process could literally go on for 3-5 months or maybe longer before you actually feel the pain, and you WILL make progress the whole time. Then, once you feel it, you'll be in the exact situation I was in, and every day that you train with that slight pain that slowly gets worse will add far more than just an extra day to your layoff, not to mention your recovery.

As lavastine said, it is certainly possible that you may never get hurt, but the chances are low. If you like gambling with what would be unacceptable odds in a casino, that is ok. To be clear, the rule in gambling is that you never take a bet unless the gain to loss ratio is a minimum of 2-1 AND you have a certain percentage of winning. I don't remember the exact percentage, but it's right around 50%. That is an absolute minimum that even many professional gamblers will tell you is not good enough. That 50% chance of you getting hurt is a big, big under-estimation based on the experiences of the board across weight categories, and I can tell you for sure that you don't have a chance at making twice the gains by working higher intensity. In fact, the faster your muscles get strong the higher your risk of injury with the statics goes.

I don't mind if you disregard what I'm saying. I disregarded it myself at first, and here I am doing great after a year of layoff and recovery. From here forward I am virtually guaranteed stellar progress. If you waste that year too, or 6 months if you're lucky, you'll probably just come out of it smarter just like I did.

I don't think there's much more to say on the matter. You'll have to do your own independent research on tendon healing rates and muscle tissue healing rates with google and decide for yourself what is worth it and what is not.

For informational purposes only: I used to have the same mentality. "This takes too long!" I was completely wrong. It took me over a year just to get that through my head, and to stop looking for instant results. Now I'm making progress faster than when I was younger AND more dedicated. I'm just one old man, so enjoy the story. You can read my early posts from my first 6 months here to see what I thought then and compare with what I have come to know as of now.

Dammit! You're right. I know it is but the vicious circle of wanting quick results just takes over. I was all set to start doing high intensity since today, and I've actually already done 2 PL sessions, but I just read this right now and it got me thinking.

Injury/recovery is certainly a bitch and I'm not up for that again. I'm lucky to more or less still be able to perform close to my 100% despite having several injuries and possibly tendonitis before.

I'm going to be completely honest and lay it out here: I don't want to do the WOD's right now. All I want to do right now are the FSP's and FBE's, that's it, more than enough to keep one busy for some time. Call me stupid or an idiot or whatever you want, but that's just how it is at the moment, I won't state my reasons. To each his own. But I will take your advice on what you just said. I don't want to gamble on it and come up worse.

So now that you know that I won't be doing the WOD's, what's the maximum intensity that I could do in the FSP's then? 5 minutes each day? 4? You can be sure that I'm up for doing the maximum that I can. I re-tested today and they were frog stand 40s, tuck FL 40s, handstand around 47s (I could probably have done 50 but I messed up), and I haven't tested the rest yet, but they should be all close to these.

Obviously I know not to train the PL, FL, BL and other disadvantaged positions to failure on each set, I've done them 50% time every time since I read it, I know that much. But when you're told to start doing only 60s each for the whole day, and only 4-5 days of the week at the most, and to stick with this for 6-8 weeks, well I just don't know what to do with that.

But not all the FSP's are hard on the joints right? Well, maybe only the l-sits and the handstand right? Can I at least train those at a high intensity? And what do you think could be a well-balanced strength training program as my main workout? Note: I don't have access to weights, for example to dipping belts or weight vests or things like that. I'd certainly like to use those but I just don't know what would be a good substitue for those.

Deft-Mastery said:

I'm going to be completely honest and lay it out here: I don't want to do the WOD's right now. All I want to do right now are the FSP's and FBE's, that's it, more than enough to keep one busy for some time. Call me stupid or an idiot or whatever you want, but that's just how it is at the moment, I won't state my reasons. To each his own. But I will take your advice on what you just said. I don't want to gamble on it and come up worse.

So now that you know that I won't be doing the WOD's, what's the maximum intensity that I could do in the FSP's then? 5 minutes each day? 4? You can be sure that I'm up for doing the maximum that I can. I re-tested today and they were frog stand 40s, tuck FL 40s, handstand around 47s (I could probably have done 50 but I messed up), and I haven't tested the rest yet, but they should be all close to these.

Obviously I know not to train the PL, FL, BL and other disadvantaged positions to failure on each set, I've done them 50% time every time since I read it, I know that much. But when you're told to start doing only 60s each for the whole day, and only 4-5 days of the week at the most, and to stick with this for 6-8 weeks, well I just don't know what to do with that.

But not all the FSP's are hard on the joints right? Well, maybe only the l-sits and the handstand right? Can I at least train those at a high intensity? And what do you think could be a well-balanced strength training program as my main workout? Note: I don't have access to weights, for example to dipping belts or weight vests or things like that. I'd certainly like to use those but I just don't know what would be a good substitue for those.

There's nothing wrong with not trying the WODs for a while. The absolute most important thing for you to do is to make sure that whatever you do keeps your muscular strength balanced across the joints. You don't want to do a ton of dips, handstand work, and push up stuff without doing an equal amount of pull ups, rows, and specific scapular shrugging work. That's the single most important thing.

I can honestly tell you that you really will get more out of keeping the statics at 60s each per day than you will get out of trying for a lot more and only working twice a week or something. What you SHOULD try and do is to focus all of that effort into your FBE instead. Keep using the statics for warm up. It's kind of dumb to put all your energy into exercises that only build strength at specific points in the range of motion, which is what most of the statics do. Then you don't have enough energy left to do your best work through the full range of motion and you end up getting less than ideal results! That's what'll end up happening if you just focus like crazy on the statics. It's not that you won't make progress, it's that it won't happen anywhere near as fast as you want it to!

The L-sit stuff is harder to do correctly than it looks. Make sure your back is curved as much as possible, as if you are trying to touch your pelvis to your shoulders, and keep your thighs parallel with the ground when doing the bent leg or the straight L sit. For that low in-between step with the straight legs you just keep them at whatever elevation you can hold for the appropriate time without too much effort. If you feel yourself lose some of that curve, that means your abs can't hold the extra weight and you should make it JUUUUST easy enough to where they CAN hold the weight. Did that make sense?

With ALL the statics, including the handstand, take it slow. Do the exact same thing for at least a month before you try to add more total time or anything like that. That's kind of an easy way to decide when it's ok to add more. The important thing is that the static work should never wear you out.

I'd make one day that is all handstand work and pull ups, one day that is rows and push ups, and one day that is dips, inverted curls, and specific scapular work. I think you'll do well to have a fourth day that focuses on multiplane work when you can do them, like muscle ups and FL pulls. Until then, a fourth day with just legs, scapular work and maybe some chin ups will be fine.

I think that you should limit yourself to 4 work sets per exercise, and choose a total of 4-5 exercises MAX. I would say 4, but if you do 5 make sure it's a pull and not a push. That way you'll always be safe. Don't do any sets to failure. Always have at least 1 rep left in you at the end of each set. That might mean your second set has to be easier than the first! That's OK! You should expect that. Instead of trying to do the hardest thing you can, take more of a steady state approach to your workouts. Pick exercises that are challenging but do-able with perfect form. Do the same workouts for at least a month, and if they aren't feeling easy by then just keep doing them! When they feel easy for a few weeks straight it's time to either add a little bit of weight, add a little bit of volume(more reps, not more sets), or perhaps it may be time to move up to the next harder exercise! You won't know for sure which will be right until you start trying each one. You may need more volume for some exercises and some added weight for others, and sometimes you'll just be ready for the next exercise. If you can't perform the next harder exercise for at least 4 perfect reps then try adding a few more reps to each set of the easier exercise. If that doesn't help you make more progress, you can try adding a few extra lbs. You'll have to get creative on how to do that. There are some good youtube videos on how to make a homemade weight belt. Look them up!

slizzardman said:

There's nothing wrong with not trying the WODs for a while. The absolute most important thing for you to do is to make sure that whatever you do keeps your muscular strength balanced across the joints. You don't want to do a ton of dips, handstand work, and push up stuff without doing an equal amount of pull ups, rows, and specific scapular shrugging work. That's the single most important thing.

Ok.

slizzardman said:

I can honestly tell you that you really will get more out of keeping the statics at 60s each per day than you will get out of trying for a lot more and only working twice a week or something. What you SHOULD try and do is to focus all of that effort into your FBE instead. Keep using the statics for warm up. It's kind of dumb to put all your energy into exercises that only build strength at specific points in the range of motion, which is what most of the statics do. Then you don't have enough energy left to do your best work through the full range of motion and you end up getting less than ideal results! That's what'll end up happening if you just focus like crazy on the statics. It's not that you won't make progress, it's that it won't happen anywhere near as fast as you want it to!

Ok. What about just 1-2 minutes more? Will 1-2 minutes more really make the difference between injury and safety? I did 2 minutes of frog stand today, 6 20s sets one after the other with 45-60 seconds rest between sets, and honestly it didn't make me tired. Well the last 2 sets did feel a little harder, but nothing big, and in a few minutes I was fine. I did the same thing with the tuck FL and with the handstand, but I did 2 sessions of handstand, so 4 minutes.

slizzardman said:

The L-sit stuff is harder to do correctly than it looks. Make sure your back is curved as much as possible, as if you are trying to touch your pelvis to your shoulders, and keep your thighs parallel with the ground when doing the bent leg or the straight L sit. For that low in-between step with the straight legs you just keep them at whatever elevation you can hold for the appropriate time without too much effort. If you feel yourself lose some of that curve, that means your abs can't hold the extra weight and you should make it JUUUUST easy enough to where they CAN hold the weight. Did that make sense?

What do you mean curving your back? Do you mean lean backwards? That's what I did the last 2 times (btw I'm doing bent leg l-sit right now). I can do the l-sit straight, with my back like curved and leaning a little bit forward, this is easier than leaning a little backwards trying to put your back straight, this is where I really feel the abs working.

slizzardman said:

With ALL the statics, including the handstand, take it slow. Do the exact same thing for at least a month before you try to add more total time or anything like that. That's kind of an easy way to decide when it's ok to add more. The important thing is that the static work should never wear you out.

I thought you could go harder with the handstand since it's not much of a disadvantaged position like FL or PL?

slizzardman said:

I'd make one day that is all handstand work and pull ups, one day that is rows and push ups, and one day that is dips, inverted curls, and specific scapular work. I think you'll do well to have a fourth day that focuses on multiplane work when you can do them, like muscle ups and FL pulls. Until then, a fourth day with just legs, scapular work and maybe some chin ups will be fine.

Right, so push and pull.

slizzardman said:

I think that you should limit yourself to 4 work sets per exercise, and choose a total of 4-5 exercises MAX. I would say 4, but if you do 5 make sure it's a pull and not a push. That way you'll always be safe. Don't do any sets to failure. Always have at least 1 rep left in you at the end of each set. That might mean your second set has to be easier than the first! That's OK! You should expect that. Instead of trying to do the hardest thing you can, take more of a steady state approach to your workouts. Pick exercises that are challenging but do-able with perfect form. Do the same workouts for at least a month, and if they aren't feeling easy by then just keep doing them! When they feel easy for a few weeks straight it's time to either add a little bit of weight, add a little bit of volume(more reps, not more sets), or perhaps it may be time to move up to the next harder exercise! You won't know for sure which will be right until you start trying each one. You may need more volume for some exercises and some added weight for others, and sometimes you'll just be ready for the next exercise. If you can't perform the next harder exercise for at least 4 perfect reps then try adding a few more reps to each set of the easier exercise. If that doesn't help you make more progress, you can try adding a few extra lbs. You'll have to get creative on how to do that. There are some good youtube videos on how to make a homemade weight belt. Look them up!

4 sets instead of 5? And what happens if you do 5 with push?

Ok. Just to give you an idea I can do 10 bodyweight ring chin-ups (they feel harder than doing them on a bar to me) and 11 dips max, I was thinking of sticking with these 2 until I can do at least 4-5 sets of 12 reps each, and then when that time comes do the next variation, or then again just do the next/other variations another day.

And how many workouts should I do in a day (a "workout" being for example the 5 sets of dips)? 1? 2? And should I pair them, or do them separately? Should the whole workout be done all at one time?

Thanks for answering, you're a real trooper.

You didn't feel very tired from 2 minutes of frogstand because thats all you did [also, it's the only bent arm static]. Imagine doing all your Static holds in that session, then multiply that by say 4x a week. Imagine how drained you would feel after a few weeks. Keeping it at 60s, is far more than enough to get me warmed up and I think the work load is enough not to exhaust me for the workout to come and week to come.

Also, you're thinking about arching your back, curving is the opposite, what most people do when they sit in a chair, they slouch. Think about abdominal compression.

How much experience do you have with handstands? If you have none, you'll find that in the beginning it will increase really really slowly, but it would be your most usefully invested time.

RandomHavoc said:

You didn't feel very tired from 2 minutes of frogstand because thats all you did [also, it's the only bent arm static]. Imagine doing all your Static holds in that session, then multiply that by say 4x a week. Imagine how drained you would feel after a few weeks. Keeping it at 60s, is far more than enough to get me warmed up and I think the work load is enough not to exhaust me for the workout to come and week to come.

That's not all I did. I did 2 or 3 handstand sessions, 2 minutes each, and I also did tuck FL. Frog stand it was actually 2 sessions, 2 minutes each. Obviously I didn't do one static after the other, e.g. handstand and then frog stand, that would have probably been too much. I took a little time between the statics.

RandomHavoc said:

Also, you're thinking about arching your back, curving is the opposite, what most people do when they sit in a chair, they slouch. Think about abdominal compression.

Well I don't know what to tell ya. When I lean backwards doing the bent leg l-sit, like attempting to put my back completely straight, or lifting my legs a bit, don't even know actually, that feels a lot harder than slouching and being curved.

RandomHavoc said:

How much experience do you have with handstands? If you have none, you'll find that in the beginning it will increase really really slowly, but it would be your most usefully invested time.

Well, some. I love working the handstand, and I can't wait until I can do free standing HSPU's.

Deft-Mastery said:

RandomHavoc said:

You didn't feel very tired from 2 minutes of frogstand because thats all you did [also, it's the only bent arm static]. Imagine doing all your Static holds in that session, then multiply that by say 4x a week. Imagine how drained you would feel after a few weeks. Keeping it at 60s, is far more than enough to get me warmed up and I think the work load is enough not to exhaust me for the workout to come and week to come.

That's not all I did. I did 2 or 3 handstand sessions, 2 minutes each, and I also did tuck FL. Frog stand it was actually 2 sessions, 2 minutes each. Obviously I didn't do one static after the other, e.g. handstand and then frog stand, that would have probably been too much. I took a little time between the statics.

RandomHavoc said:

Also, you're thinking about arching your back, curving is the opposite, what most people do when they sit in a chair, they slouch. Think about abdominal compression.

Well I don't know what to tell ya. When I lean backwards doing the bent leg l-sit, like attempting to put my back completely straight, or lifting my legs a bit, don't even know actually, that feels a lot harder than slouching and being curved.

RandomHavoc said:

How much experience do you have with handstands? If you have none, you'll find that in the beginning it will increase really really slowly, but it would be your most usefully invested time.

Well, some. I love working the handstand, and I can't wait until I can do free standing HSPU's.

You're just going to have to test it out for a while and see if doing 2 minutes fatigues you or not. Everyone has different workload capabilities. Just keep in mind that the duration per set should remain at 50%. Also, take this into consideration: the last WoD had as a FSH at the end of 5x[15s inverted hang, 15s support hold, and 15s german hang]. That's a lot of volume for the elbow. Notice that this WoD part comes less than once every 10 days.

As for Lsits, just think about it this way. You start by curving your back, get your compression, and lifting straight legs into the air. When you become strong enough, you then you open your chest, and push your shoulders back. Notice that you will never arch your back during an Lsit. (Frankly, I'm not sure if its possible or desirable). There's a subtle difference, and I think that's what Slizzardsman was beginning to get at.

Deft-Mastery said:

slizzardman said:

I can honestly tell you that you really will get more out of keeping the statics at 60s each per day than you will get out of trying for a lot more and only working twice a week or something. What you SHOULD try and do is to focus all of that effort into your FBE instead. Keep using the statics for warm up. It's kind of dumb to put all your energy into exercises that only build strength at specific points in the range of motion, which is what most of the statics do. Then you don't have enough energy left to do your best work through the full range of motion and you end up getting less than ideal results! That's what'll end up happening if you just focus like crazy on the statics. It's not that you won't make progress, it's that it won't happen anywhere near as fast as you want it to!

Ok. What about just 1-2 minutes more? Will 1-2 minutes more really make the difference between injury and safety? I did 2 minutes of frog stand today, 6 20s sets one after the other with 45-60 seconds rest between sets, and honestly it didn't make me tired. Well the last 2 sets did feel a little harder, but nothing big, and in a few minutes I was fine. I did the same thing with the tuck FL and with the handstand, but I did 2 sessions of handstand, so 4 minutes.

You should be ok with frog stand, but starting with straight arm advanced frog you will be putting more pressure on the biceps tendon and you should really just stick with the 60s. More will not bring significantly better results in your training. You always want to be fresh each day. The beginning FL work is pretty easy, but you'll find that your main progress there doesn't come from FL practice as much as it comes from getting stronger with pull ups, FL circle pulls, etc. Those are more challenging for the muscles that you use in the FL and that is where your effort will give you the best results. BL should definitely not be done more than 60s since that's basically doubling up on the biceps tendon work when combined with advanced frog.

slizzardman said:

The L-sit stuff is harder to do correctly than it looks. Make sure your back is curved as much as possible, as if you are trying to touch your pelvis to your shoulders, and keep your thighs parallel with the ground when doing the bent leg or the straight L sit. For that low in-between step with the straight legs you just keep them at whatever elevation you can hold for the appropriate time without too much effort. If you feel yourself lose some of that curve, that means your abs can't hold the extra weight and you should make it JUUUUST easy enough to where they CAN hold the weight. Did that make sense?

What do you mean curving your back? Do you mean lean backwards? That's what I did the last 2 times (btw I'm doing bent leg l-sit right now). I can do the l-sit straight, with my back like curved and leaning a little bit forward, this is easier than leaning a little backwards trying to put your back straight, this is where I really feel the abs working.

slizzardman said:

With ALL the statics, including the handstand, take it slow. Do the exact same thing for at least a month before you try to add more total time or anything like that. That's kind of an easy way to decide when it's ok to add more. The important thing is that the static work should never wear you out.

I thought you could go harder with the handstand since it's not much of a disadvantaged position like FL or PL?

Lots and lots of handstand work will wear out your shoulders. It's a bit silly to focus on one thing like that so much that the rest of your work suffers. As time goes on you'll be able to do more and more HS work without messing up the rest of your workout. In the beginning, you'll just have to figure out how much you can do for yourself and maybe add an additional minute each month. That might be too much, you'll just have to see.

slizzardman said:

I'd make one day that is all handstand work and pull ups, one day that is rows and push ups, and one day that is dips, inverted curls, and specific scapular work. I think you'll do well to have a fourth day that focuses on multiplane work when you can do them, like muscle ups and FL pulls. Until then, a fourth day with just legs, scapular work and maybe some chin ups will be fine.

Right, so push and pull.

Yes, but more specifically scapular protraction and retraction must be balanced and if one is to dominate it must be retraction. If you don't know what that means, you'll need to google search that one.

slizzardman said:

I think that you should limit yourself to 4 work sets per exercise, and choose a total of 4-5 exercises MAX. I would say 4, but if you do 5 make sure it's a pull and not a push. That way you'll always be safe. Don't do any sets to failure. Always have at least 1 rep left in you at the end of each set. That might mean your second set has to be easier than the first! That's OK! You should expect that. Instead of trying to do the hardest thing you can, take more of a steady state approach to your workouts. Pick exercises that are challenging but do-able with perfect form. Do the same workouts for at least a month, and if they aren't feeling easy by then just keep doing them! When they feel easy for a few weeks straight it's time to either add a little bit of weight, add a little bit of volume(more reps, not more sets), or perhaps it may be time to move up to the next harder exercise! You won't know for sure which will be right until you start trying each one. You may need more volume for some exercises and some added weight for others, and sometimes you'll just be ready for the next exercise. If you can't perform the next harder exercise for at least 4 perfect reps then try adding a few more reps to each set of the easier exercise. If that doesn't help you make more progress, you can try adding a few extra lbs. You'll have to get creative on how to do that. There are some good youtube videos on how to make a homemade weight belt. Look them up!

4 sets instead of 5? And what happens if you do 5 with push?

4 is easier to balance and easier to recover from, which will make it easier for you to have productive workouts. If you do more push than pull you will end up with shoulder imbalances and will end up with shoulder pain and a good bit of re-hab, after which you will have to be very careful about keeping your upper body work slightly in favor of pull work and scapular retraction, as you should be from the get-go. SO basically you'll just waste time.

Ok. Just to give you an idea I can do 10 bodyweight ring chin-ups (they feel harder than doing them on a bar to me) and 11 dips max, I was thinking of sticking with these 2 until I can do at least 4-5 sets of 12 reps each, and then when that time comes do the next variation, or then again just do the next/other variations another day.

And how many workouts should I do in a day (a "workout" being for example the 5 sets of dips)? 1? 2? And should I pair them, or do them separately? Should the whole workout be done all at one time?

Thanks for answering, you're a real trooper.

Do what you like. I'd prefer to see you work on your strength more since that will be the basis for all future gains no matter what direction you want to take, but that's up to you. You'll be better off doing each pull up set with a different grip because each grip makes different muscles work hard. Regular, chin up, parallel, wide. Something like that. Once you get to where you can do all of those sets with whatever rep range you like working in, start doing them in an L. Once you can do THAT, start adding weight a few lbs at a time. Same goes for dips.

When I trained like this I got my best results from doing pull ups, dips, rest, repeat. You should have no problem doing that for 4-5 sets in 25 minutes or less, so there's no reason to split it up.

slizzardman said:

You should be ok with frog stand, but starting with straight arm advanced frog you will be putting more pressure on the biceps tendon and you should really just stick with the 60s. More will not bring significantly better results in your training. You always want to be fresh each day.

Right. For some (BL mainly) I'll stick with 60s for now because it's relatively "new" to me, so I don't want to push it, and because of the bicep tendon thing you said. I tested my max until today and I did 40s max sort of easy, so I'll do 20s sets, but I have a question: since I can do 20s per set, does that mean I'll only do 3 sets, for the 60s? (Same goes for any other static you do 20s sets). Frog stand and handstand I'm doing 6 20s sets right now, 2 minutes.

slizzardman said:

The beginning FL work is pretty easy, but you'll find that your main progress there doesn't come from FL practice as much as it comes from getting stronger with pull ups, FL circle pulls, etc. Those are more challenging for the muscles that you use in the FL and that is where your effort will give you the best results. BL should definitely not be done more than 60s since that's basically doubling up on the biceps tendon work when combined with advanced frog.

Ok.

slizzardman said:

You don't want to really lean backwards, you want your body hollow. Your hips should be under your shoulders and somewhat behind your hands. The advanced L sit is essentially just like the regular straight leg L sit with the additional requirement of pressing your hips in line with or slightly in front of your hands. It is easy to fake and make it LOOK right, but if you aren't DOING it right you won't get the strength you need from it. This is much harder on the floor than it is on PB at least for me, so keep that in mind. With the bent leg the only difference is that your legs are bent.

I don't really understand it, maybe a picture or something would be best.

slizzardman said:

Lots and lots of handstand work will wear out your shoulders. It's a bit silly to focus on one thing like that so much that the rest of your work suffers. As time goes on you'll be able to do more and more HS work without messing up the rest of your workout. In the beginning, you'll just have to figure out how much you can do for yourself and maybe add an additional minute each month. That might be too much, you'll just have to see.

It's not even that much more man, I'm just talking about 2-4 minutes more, not something like 6-10.

slizzardman said:

Yes, but more specifically scapular protraction and retraction must be balanced and if one is to dominate it must be retraction. If you don't know what that means, you'll need to google search that one.

Right.

slizzardman said:

4 is easier to balance and easier to recover from, which will make it easier for you to have productive workouts.

I recover from 5 sets of 8-10reps in the same day, probably in 2 hours I'm good to go again,;I figure that if I were to get up early, say 6am, and by 7am or something do a 5 set workout, 2-4 hours later I could do another one, and if I were to really organize time, I could squeeze probably like 4 workouts in one day, but that would probably be too much, so that's why I ask you: how many workouts should I do each day?

Since I'm in college right now I can't actually workout in the morning, but I'm free from 11:30am every day, so I could easily do 2 workouts. I've been meaning to try this to see how it feels, 2 workouts in one day, but I haven't been able to yet.

slizzardman said:

Do what you like. I'd prefer to see you work on your strength more since that will be the basis for all future gains no matter what direction you want to take, but that's up to you. You'll be better off doing each pull up set with a different grip because each grip makes different muscles work hard. Regular, chin up, parallel, wide. Something like that. Once you get to where you can do all of those sets with whatever rep range you like working in, start doing them in an L. Once you can do THAT, start adding weight a few lbs at a time. Same goes for dips.

Alright. I'll be doing other variations as well too, which are more low-rep (strength), not just stick with regular dips and chins, like tuck chinups (for some reason I get the most ROM with these doing them with a neutral grip (palms facing each other), I've been wanting to do them with a pullup grip but I think I need to set the rings wider and in the place I have them they can't go any wider).

slizzardman said:

When I trained like this I got my best results from doing pull ups, dips, rest, repeat. You should have no problem doing that for 4-5 sets in 25 minutes or less, so there's no reason to split it up.

I've done them like that and that's how long I take doing 5 sets too, 25min. The problem right now is that it's raining a lot here and the rings are indoors but the PB are outside, so I can always do rings but not always PB because of the rain. I've been wanting to have the PB indoors too but it will take a while. That's why sometimes I did them separately, but when I can I do them together.

Right now, for instance, it's raining! It's like the 3rd time it rains today.

Yea, rain will definitely be a good reason for separate sets sometimes!

I know, the L sit thing is weird. I'll have to make a quick video to explain what I mean.

I know your handstand work isn't that much, and in the beginning I don't think that 5 minutes per day would totally overload you or anything. Just test it out for a few weeks and if you don't start seeing a decrease in performance anywhere then you're ok! That's part of why you have to spread out the rate at which you increase your work times. It takes a little while for your body to adjust and adapt to where the new workload drains the body no more than the old one. Unfortunately, things like that just take some experimentation to figure out for each individual! I WILL suggest that you do most of your handstand work AFTER the workout unless it's a leg day. If it's a HSPU day then your energy should be spent THERE and then whatever's left can go to free-balancing or whatever.

3 sets of 20s would be what you'd do for all statics that you have a 40s max on. The one time you would start working a little more volume, like 4-5 sets instead of 3, would be if you get to where you have a 60s max hold, have done 6-8 weeks of 2x 30s holds but still can't get that minimum 15-20s max on the next step. That generally will never happen when you do the WODs, but might happen on your own program, so that's a strategy you can use to progress in that case!

Multiple sessions will benefit you more when you are more developed strength-wise, and you actually need at least 4 hours between sessions.

I don't know what your goals are, so I can't actually say that doing multiple sessions of the same thing is a bad idea. If you're looking to go to BUD/S or something like that multiple sessions is the way to go because that's what you'll be dealing with on a regular basis.

If your goal is to make the best progress you can, you'll have to remember that your goal is not to do as much work as possible. Your goal is to do the right amount of work to make maximum progress without getting in the way of future workouts! That's tough, I almost always feel ready to go again in an hour or two after most WODs, and the WODs are way harder than the sets of pull ups and dips I used to do. When you feel that way it means you are doing things right! Don't "F" it up by trying to do even more. You should really never feel worn out or tired before or for very long after a workout. If you don't feel (more or less) good to go by the 4 hour mark after you're done then you worked too hard and it's going to show in your next few workouts during that week! That's just a mental thing you'll have to counsel yourself through if this goal is what you want.

slizzardman said:

Yea, rain will definitely be a good reason for separate sets sometimes!

Yeah.

slizzardman said:

I know, the L sit thing is weird. I'll have to make a quick video to explain what I mean.

That would be best.

slizzardman said:

I know your handstand work isn't that much, and in the beginning I don't think that 5 minutes per day would totally overload you or anything. Just test it out for a few weeks and if you don't start seeing a decrease in performance anywhere then you're ok! That's part of why you have to spread out the rate at which you increase your work times. It takes a little while for your body to adjust and adapt to where the new workload drains the body no more than the old one. Unfortunately, things like that just take some experimentation to figure out for each individual! I WILL suggest that you do most of your handstand work AFTER the workout unless it's a leg day. If it's a HSPU day then your energy should be spent THERE and then whatever's left can go to free-balancing or whatever.

Great.

slizzardman said:

3 sets of 20s would be what you'd do for all statics that you have a 40s max on. The one time you would start working a little more volume, like 4-5 sets instead of 3, would be if you get to where you have a 60s max hold, have done 6-8 weeks of 2x 30s holds but still can't get that minimum 15-20s max on the next step. That generally will never happen when you do the WODs, but might happen on your own program, so that's a strategy you can use to progress in that case!

Multiple sessions will benefit you more when you are more developed strength-wise, and you actually need at least 4 hours between sessions.

Alright.

slizzardman said:

I don't know what your goals are, so I can't actually say that doing multiple sessions of the same thing is a bad idea. If you're looking to go to BUD/S or something like that multiple sessions is the way to go because that's what you'll be dealing with on a regular basis.

If your goal is to make the best progress you can, you'll have to remember that your goal is not to do as much work as possible. Your goal is to do the right amount of work to make maximum progress without getting in the way of future workouts! That's tough, I almost always feel ready to go again in an hour or two after most WODs, and the WODs are way harder than the sets of pull ups and dips I used to do. When you feel that way it means you are doing things right! Don't "F" it up by trying to do even more. You should really never feel worn out or tired before or for very long after a workout. If you don't feel (more or less) good to go by the 4 hour mark after you're done then you worked too hard and it's going to show in your next few workouts during that week! That's just a mental thing you'll have to counsel yourself through if this goal is what you want.

What's BUD/S?

Well my goals are hypertrophy+strength, and well just being fit and stuff. I'm just a regular guy who wants to workout but I just want to do gymnastic stuff. I don't do weights.

BUD/S is navy seal training. Basic Underwater Demolition and SE.A.L.(Sea, Air and Land) training.

For what you want, you'll probably get your best results by doing your higher rep sets of 10-12 reps one week and then switching to a more strength oriented set the next, like 4-7 reps with some weight added. By alternating each week you'll be focusing on both maximal strength AND hypertrophy, which are usually complementary. Of course sticking with the higher rep sets is ok too, you'll just be getting a bit less strength out of it.

slizzardman said:

BUD/S is navy seal training. Basic Underwater Demolition and SE.A.L.(Sea, Air and Land) training.

Oh.

slizzardman said:

For what you want, you'll probably get your best results by doing your higher rep sets of 10-12 reps one week and then switching to a more strength oriented set the next, like 4-7 reps with some weight added. By alternating each week you'll be focusing on both maximal strength AND hypertrophy, which are usually complementary. Of course sticking with the higher rep sets is ok too, you'll just be getting a bit less strength out of it.

Alright.

If I am able to do 4 and 5 sets, which one is better?

See how you feel on each workout day and decide then whether you will do 4 or 5. You may not know for sure sometimes until you're done with 4, and if you mess up and do too much, just do 4 for a week or two at the most and you'll be fine, and then just be a little more aware! I've done that tons of times, it's how I know just how much to do now!

slizzardman said:

See how you feel on each workout day and decide then whether you will do 4 or 5. You may not know for sure sometimes until you're done with 4, and if you mess up and do too much, just do 4 for a week or two at the most and you'll be fine, and then just be a little more aware! I've done that tons of times, it's how I know just how much to do now!

Alright man thanks a lot for all the info, I'll try it all out for a while and see what happens, I'll post again in a month maybe haha.

What's up fellas!?! I just became a member last week and this forum addresses everything I have been confused on for a year now! I have been messing around with these static holds and hitting a WOD every now and then for a little over a year now. I have been adding it to my other workout regiments (bodybuilder style weight lifting and crossfit.). My point is I am not new to working out, I have just been struggling with how to program this stuff. A few questions for you slizzardman:

1. Coach says he has his athletes warm up every training period with approximately 20 min of handstand work. Do they perform static hold work after this?

2. If the WOD has embedded static holds incorporated into the workout, should you still do them as a warm up?

3. I was up to a 25 sec tuck planche hold on the floor, but keep getting frustrated with progress (now I see why, haha!), so I went back to advanced frog stand. Is this a good move? Also your video shows your knees resting on your elbows, I thought that it was arms straight and knees on the outside of the elbows essentially squeezing in your triceps??

4. Your statics are FL, PL, L-sit, Straddle-L, BL (German Hang), and Manna. These the basic moves that everyone should work, correct?

5. If I wanted to work on human flag progressions would I add it to this list of statics or sub one of them out for a side lever progression?

6. Also, if a gymnists could do a full lay planche, he would want to warm up with a straddle planche as his static hold sets using this method, is this correct?

To give my take on all this info to Deft-Mastery, I believe that slizzardman has given you the method which you should use to progress in your static holds. His basic point in regards to when and how you do it is that it should be done at the beginning of your work out as a "warm-up" even though these are working sets in which you are trying to achieve a goal of a longer hold or harder move. You are actually trying to build strength with this not just loosen up. Other point, you should not make a work of just static holds. In order to do that you will hurt yourself. It doesn't matter if you don't do the WODs (although most beneficial), but you need something to compliment the extreme work on your tendons and balncing exercises (push, pull concept) so you dont develop unbalanced. If you want to only concentrate on your static holds and get really good at them, you are going to have to work other exercises if you plan on getting anywhere. He gave you the breakdown of how to properly program the statics into your workout, if you want to get better you need to add a workout that compliments what you are trying to achieve. For instance, if you are looking to improve your back squat, you would not work backsquat 5 days a week. You would work things like deadlifts and to strengthen your lower back, in return improving your back squat. Making more sense?? Correct me if I am wrong slizzardman. I understand the concept much better now but I still need lots of help. I do crossfit and Jui jitsu/stand up conditioning as well. I have been trying to create work outs where I do the static holds at the beginning (warm-up) and then go lift weights. This doesn't always work out. If I start doing the WODS (strictly body weight) do you think doing crossfit with it will be too much?

Eddie said:

What's up fellas!?! I just became a member last week and this forum addresses everything I have been confused on for a year now! I have been messing around with these static holds and hitting a WOD every now and then for a little over a year now. I have been adding it to my other workout regiments (bodybuilder style weight lifting and crossfit.). My point is I am not new to working out, I have just been struggling with how to program this stuff. A few questions for you slizzardman:

1. Coach says he has his athletes warm up every training period with approximately 20 min of handstand work. Do they perform static hold work after this?

That's a good question. One thing to keep in mind is that for them that work is not that big of a deal. It's presses, the HS walking warm up they do, and I don't know what else. I'll have to ask this weekend at the seminar. I do know that the statics are a part of their warm ups. In your latest post you mistakenly thought of these statics as work sets in which strength is being built. While it is true that adaptation takes place as a result of these sets, it is a very bad idea to think of them as strength exercises, because they are not. They are skills. The strength that allows you to progress comes mostly from the WODs or whatever other conditioning you do. The statics allow your body to learn to USE it better. Some strength does get developed in this process, but it is primarily teaching your body to use what it has.

2. If the WOD has embedded static holds incorporated into the workout, should you still do them as a warm up?

That is a good question. I personally only perform the remainder of time for warm up, in yesterday's case 15 seconds, as warm up for any embedded statics, which more or less cuts warm up time by half. You COULD try to do your whole FSP warm up, but I think that may take away from the embedded statics, which are meant to actually BE working sets where you DO test your strength. BL and PL obviously require a little more caution in their execution than the others, but should still be a challenge.

3. I was up to a 25 sec tuck planche hold on the floor, but keep getting frustrated with progress (now I see why, haha!), so I went back to advanced frog stand. Is this a good move? Also your video shows your knees resting on your elbows, I thought that it was arms straight and knees on the outside of the elbows essentially squeezing in your triceps??

No, knees go on the elbows in advanced frog. It is ok to work up to that if you need to, but you should never have lateral pressure on the elbow joint.

4. Your statics are FL, PL, L-sit, Straddle-L, BL (German Hang), and Manna. These the basic moves that everyone should work, correct?

They are THE basic statics that everyone should be working, yes. If they are anyone's, they are Coach Sommer's.

5. If I wanted to work on human flag progressions would I add it to this list of statics or sub one of them out for a side lever progression?

If you want to work on human flag progressions you would either just follow the WODs, which will give you what you need to get there, or on core days you do a few sets of whatever progression you can do properly once you have mastered a good bit of the RLL, HLL and body levers AND the earlier oblique work. Without basics you can't do advanced stuff safely. Side levers also require very strong shoulders and lats, so you really need good all-around development for these.

6. Also, if a gymnists could do a full lay planche, he would want to warm up with a straddle planche as his static hold sets using this method, is this correct?

That depends entirely on how long he can hold the full lay planche and how long he can hold the straddle planche. He may very well warm up with advanced tuck for quite a while before his straddle becomes solid enough to be considered warm up material. That just depends on each individual.

Thanks alot man. I am learning alot from you and these forums and really appreciate your time to help myself and others understand. I a guess I am still a little confused on how the warmup concept for the static holds. It's misleading to me when you see a video of someone holding a planche for 15s or knocking out planche pushups; however, if I am understanding correctly you are saying that constant work with 50% of max time and a less difficult position will ultimately strengthen your hold in a more difficult position. It seems weird to me that you would not continue to practice a full lay PL, FL, BL, etc. once you have obtained it. Now, I do understand that working FBE's and easier positions that you can hold longer to increase strength. This is the same concept as don't work flat bench press to get stronger at flat bench press. Works for a little while and then you hit a brick wall. So I guess the question is once you have reached the end of teh progression, i.e. full lay planche, when do you get to do it!?! That's such an accomlishment that I would want to do it all the time and begin working it in to the warm up or WOD at some point. Do you limit how much you perform the awesome skills we are all striving to achieve? Just curious. Also, i also developed a little tendonitis in my left shoulder due to incorrect form and doing max time on the statics 4-5 days a week. So I can back you up when someone is trying to say that it won't happen to them!!!

Also, tested my max times last night before the WOD:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 35 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 29 sec

(bars) - PL (Frog Stand) = 36 sec (wrist problems at the moment)

Reverse Push-up = +1 min (not sure if i did it right, very easy for me, hips were high, shoulders over hands the whole time)

XR - BL (adv. tuck, palms down) = 15 sec....rest....XR - German Hang = 40 sec (the BL w/ palms down is harder than palms up)

(bars) - L-sit = 26 sec

So, now my sets will be:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 4 x 15 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 4 x 15 sec

(bars) - PL (Frog Stand) = 3 x 20 sec

Reverse Push-up = 3 x 30 sec

XR - German Hang = 3 x 20 sec

(bars) - L-sit = 5 x 12 sec

Does this look correct to you?