runner/climber looking for high strength/weight ratio

Hello everyone! My name is Kirk and I am a distance runner first and climber second. I run races from 800m on the track to 5000m in cross country, and in climbing I do both sport climbing and bouldering.

I was introduced to bodyweight conditioning through a climbing coach. Reading articles online about training for climbing I was introduced to the front lever as a goal to shoot for. For a year or two I have wanted to reach this goal, but with running taking up a lot of time I never really worked it consistently. Now I've read BtGB, and I've started a bodyweight strength program to accomplish this goal and hopefully some others.

In addition to this program, which I do M - W - F, I run 45 miles a week with a morning run and afternoon track workout. After my morning run Monday - Thursday, I alternate between plyometrics (M-W) and leg weight training (T-TH, pistol squats w/ weight, straight-leg romanian dumbell DL's, assorted *gasp* machines for quads, hams and calves). I sometimes have track meets on the weekend and I climb whenever I can get a ride to the gym/outside.

My routine is this:

15 Ring Muscle-Ups (mainly for warm up, haven't tested max yet but I can do 5 in a row relatively easily)

around 2 min. of FL work (currently can hold with one leg straight and other leg bent, flat back)

around 1-2 min. of BL work (feels like death, probably at tuck/ adv. tuck, so awful)

3-5 sets of 5x lowering into Iron Cross and pulling out with the easiest setting on these -> http://patrickhdonnelly.blogspot.com/20 ... ainer.html

3-5 sets of 5 ring dips, normal with full ROM and some bulgarian ones

3 sets of 3 one-arm comedowns from lock-off position

50 assorted ring pushups

and then some leg lifts/core usually

My first goal is to hold a front lever and then a one arm chin. There are lots of other things I would like to do eventually, like any kind of press to handstand, straddle L, back lever (FL feels so much closer than BL now), handstand pushup, etc., but first I need to focus on these two goals.

I just want to see what people think of this routine, and if there's anything to do to make the FL or one-arm chin come faster.

Also, I want to do natural leg curls/ GHR to complement my weighted pistols, but the force on my patella, even with bands, feels like its going to destroy my knee with the patella moving around with all the pressure on it.

You should consider performing the WODs here. They are in the Workout of the Day subforum on the Board Index.

Many a member has realized that the WOD template is superior to anything we can cook up. It gives you all the stimulus you need to get a training effect each workout, it cycles through the various aspects o athletic performance to keep them all constantly on the rise, and it keeps you from doing too much work (which is the main reason people tend to stall out in their own programs).

The WOD format is a complex training template, which means it cycles through dynamic, submaximal kinetic, maximal kinetic, and isometric strength in such a way as to have all increase simultaneously. Complex training is the most sophisticated training currently in use, and professional athletes often play over 1000 dollars PLUS travel and lodging to work with a trainer who understands how to program this effectively. What you are getting here for free is the most advanced and effective bodyweight complex training available anywhere.

Since you have BtGB, you'll have no trouble scaling the WODs to your personal ability. If you look at the posts on recent WODs you will see examples of how other members are doing this. It's pretty straightforward: If the WOD calls for 5 reps of tempo PPP but you can't do them, you simply find an earlier progression in the push up category and use that one!

You run pretty short distances, so you should have no problem with developing high levels of strength. LONG distance runners have more trouble, but it can still be done. Welcome to the Forum!

Oh yea, warm up: Every day during your warm up is when you should be doing your FSP. For the first 3 progressions of all statics you need to build up to one set of 60s before you move on to the next static. So until you have a 60s advanced frogstand, don't try tuck planche. Until you have a 60s tuck FL don't try to start flattening out into an advance tuck. Until you have advanced tuck at one 60s hold don't start extending out towards a straddle. Until you have a 60s regular L-sit don't work advanced L sit. Until you have a 60s bent leg Straddle L, don't try low straight leg. See the pattern? Following this will not only lead to faster long-term progress but also to an exercise career that is free from injury. It takes less than 10 minutes to do this, usually.

As an example, my warm up is:

40s L sit

60s ADV Frog

20s L sit

40s Advanced tuck FL

60s planche lean( my current substitute for BL and harder PL work, siince I am coming off of severe elbow problems due to trying to progress too fast through planche work)

20s Advanced tuck FL

20s German Hang

30s bent straddle L

20s German Hang

30s bent straddle L

60s attempt at the low bent MSH.

60s Reverse Push up

I don't take more thn 10-15s rests, each of those acts as something of a rest itself. Obviously, from the numbers, I can do harder things, but that just ends up getting you hurt and/or stalling your progress.

I usually take a 3-5 minute 'breather' after all that, during which I work on basic mobility and some quick active stretches. Then it's WOD time.

The whole warm up and WOD process togethertakes less than an hour if you're keeping yourself on a timer, and your progress will be excellent.

The most important reason you should do all of that is that it builds and maintains strength balance between different movements, which keeps you injury-resistant, and maintains a balanced level of flexibility, which also keeps you injury-resistant. With both of those, you are nearly injury-proof.

Be careful sliz, since you went to the seminar I am watching everything you say.

No wrist series?

thanks! it seems though that a lot of times there are shuttle runs and leg exercises with the WOD, I don't really want to add a third leg workout to the day. I assume it wouldn't affect progress in the upper body to skip lower-body exercises?

And how intense are the FSP's in the warm-up? You sound like you're not doing them that hard, but will this still make progress in those positions?

HAHAHA you caught me! I haven't taken the time to really get everything down pat. I've been so busy that I haven't had the time!

I am fortunate to have built pretty good wrist strength so I'n not suffering. The fact that I am doing all my statics on FX helps keep my hands and wrists well conditioned, but I plan on having things ironed out much better by the end of next week.

Kirk: Do jump rope or something else that gets your heart rate up high! The high heart rate helps increase your reactive and explosive capability. You COULD skip that, but ideally you won't. DOn't get stuck on 60s either, if you can get your heart rate u faster then that's enough for you, given your running work! You're doing a bit of leg lifting, but what you should be doing is staggering your leg work days. Go sub-maximal tempo work for endurance, maximal isometric work, plyometric work, maximal kinetic work. Don't do them all in one day, you'll get better results by focusing on one training effect per training day. Are you doing that?

I can also tell you that your strength gains could be suffering in your lower body from very high volume. what is your intensity, and what exercise do you do each of those days? If you outline them I can try and help you get that more streamlined. You may already be doing it perfect, I don't know, but if you aren't I can offer my opinion on how to get more out of your workout time.

You may very well not benefit from the extra leg WOD if you've already done leg work, especially given all the running. All non-leg days, be sure to do!

For the FSP in the warm up I probably go to 60-70% of max hold. As soon as I feel like I am going to have to start working SUPER hard to maintain position, or if I slip out of position, I'l stop and switch to a different FSP, then come back. I don't do anything less than 15-20s. This will absolutely still make progress. Remember, for the earlier progressions you should be sticking with them until you've got a 60s hold. That's why I do what I do. Once I get to an easy 60s I'll move on, but only if I can hold for at least 15 seconds.

The real trick to doing the FSP is to come down the instant you lose position even a little bit. This is because as soon as you lose positon you're doing an eccentric contraction, and that leads to a lot of fatigue and a lot of muscle damage. You do NOT want that! You only want perfectly still statics. That will prevent you from wasting energy. It takes some practice, and at first you may want to phase into it by starting your first week or two with 30s total, then 45 the next two weeks, then 60 starting your second month. L-sit and Straddle L will probably come faster than the others. That's ok! Don't expect to be moving to a new progression every other month.

Monday and Wednesday, after a warmup run, I do plyometrics. I do 3-5 sets of 8 "froggers" (what the running anatomy book called them - heres a link to the page http://books.google.com/books?id=HU0SGp ... &q&f=false) then the same amount of depth jumps with a rebound (next page in the book). then 3-5 sets of 15 jumps onto a high plyometric box, then 3-5 sets of froggers but without the deep squat.

Tuesday and Thursday, I do some leg weights.

3-5 sets of 5 SLS with 15 lbs (for info, i'm 120 lbs. i did a 1RM and did it with 40 lbs on one leg)

3-5 sets of 12 reps of straight-leg Romanian Dumbbell DL with two 45 lb KB's (this doesn't feel like it works my hamstrings at all, more like my back. i want to substitute this with natural leg curls/GHR but can't find a place to do them properly/without destroying my knees)

3 sets of 12 reps of this thing http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_F9bAInkYKus/S ... ension.jpg

3 sets of 12 reps of Machine Prone Leg Curl

3 sets of 12 reps of seated calf raise

3 sets of 12 reps on both the hip abductor and hip adductor machines

I do all this after a 3-4 mile "easy" (100+ heat index) run

kirk said:

Monday and Wednesday, after a warmup run, I do plyometrics. I do 3-5 sets of 8 "froggers" (what the running anatomy book called them - heres a link to the page http://books.google.com/books?id=HU0SGp ... &q&f=false) then the same amount of depth jumps with a rebound (next page in the book). then 3-5 sets of 15 jumps onto a high plyometric box, then 3-5 sets of froggers but without the deep squat.

Tuesday and Thursday, I do some leg weights.

3-5 sets of 5 SLS with 15 lbs (for info, i'm 120 lbs. i did a 1RM and did it with 40 lbs on one leg)

3-5 sets of 12 reps of straight-leg Romanian Dumbbell DL with two 45 lb KB's (this doesn't feel like it works my hamstrings at all, more like my back. i want to substitute this with natural leg curls/GHR but can't find a place to do them properly/without destroying my knees)

3 sets of 12 reps of this thing http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_F9bAInkYKus/S ... ension.jpg

3 sets of 12 reps of Machine Prone Leg Curl

3 sets of 12 reps of seated calf raise

3 sets of 12 reps on both the hip abductor and hip adductor machines

I do all this after a 3-4 mile "easy" (100+ heat index) run

Aha! There is definitely room for refinement. I will try my best to explain the purpose of what I propose. Let me know if I fail horribly, or even if I fail with considerable grace!

For one thing, you're doing too many reps of the explosive and plyometric exercises. You should keep the sets to 5 reps or less. When working plyometrics, ONLY accept maximal output! Usually your third and fourth reps are your best reps, just to give you an idea of what to expect. The reason for this is that, because of the high force nature of these movements, they rely on the creatine phosphate system for energy. That gets depleted in 7-15 seconds for most athletes, depending on supplementation status and how well trained they are.

You are also concentrating solely on anaerobic glycolytic energy pathways with your lifting. Obviously, that's where most of your event performance comes from, so this is definitely where you would want to concentrate MORE, but you absolutely should do some true maximal strength work. The reason for this is that by improving maximal strength, you will help improve your strength-endurance as well by making those fibers stronger. They too are working during maximal sets, but under a heavier load with higher neural drive. This would be considered assistance work for your events, really.

I will also say that another assistance exercise would be specific heavy isometrics, though I'd recommend you hit antagonists as well if they are missed.

here's how I would set up your sessions:

Monday: strength-endurance.

Tuesday: Heavy isometrics. This will not be a draining day, I promise you.

Wednesday: plyometrics

Thursday: maximal strength

Friday: if you want, more strength endurance. You may want to consider this just a run day, your body won't mind.

Saturday and Sunday: active rest. You might, possibly, perform one or two sets of maybe 3 plyometric exercises on Saturday. Sunday should be nothing but stretching and a very light jog.

These are set up to amplify each other's results.

Strength-endurance work is fairly easy, and will improve vascularization and the glycolytic energy pathway. This leads to both faster recovery and increased endurance.

Heavy isometrics are primarily a neural training mechanism. There is minimal movement, which means there is minimal recovery. Exercise selection should also be very limited to keep from overly fatiguing the CNS. I'd say top position squat, bottom position squat, natural leg curl or machine GHR(this CAN be a leg curl machine if you REALLY HAVE TO), lunge and back extension are IT for you. That's going to take you 120s-160s MAXIMUM of work, depending on set up. That is seriously it. The trick to make this work is that it MUST be heavy! What this does is train your nervous system to get used to higher force output and heavier loads. This also conditions the joints and tendons for higher force transmission, which means more power transfer and less power loss. What you want to do is pick a weight you can hold for more than 10s. You WILL need a timer. There must be absolutely no movement whatsoever. The moment you lose position by even 1/2 inch you are done. Keep the same weight until you can hold it for the full 20s. That will take 3 sessions or less for a very, very long time. You'll go up 10-30 lbs on most exercises each time you go up in weight. This is done early in the week so that you have not yet drained your CNS at all and can go full force. Eventually you may want to perform the lunges as a long isometric, 20-45s. That will hit the primary movers in your stride for long enough to maximally stimulate those glycolytic fibers you depend on, but at first give your body maybe 2 months to adapt to this stuff.

If you're interested, I'll post the right position to get the most out of each exercise for you.

Next up are plyometrics. As "warm up" for these, you should do some short bodyweight isometrics. I know, you do run before-hand. This is not a traditional warm up, it is a primer for the nervous system. SLS at maybe a 45 degree bend and then as low as you can hold it without resting for 5-7s in each position. Don't do them back to back. You can also do a quick lunge isometric, maybe 15s as low as you can go. You'll want your front foot elevated 12" or so. Pull yourself as far into the lunge as you can, and then when you reach the stretch point start resisting gravity instead of pulling into it. Do each of these 1-2 times per leg. These should NOT make you tired. After you do this, rest for about 4-5 minutes. This is about how long it takes for the nervous system to up-regulate itself. NOW you're ready for plyometrics!

The froggers are really more of an explosive exercise than a reactive/plyometric one, but they're a good starter. 3 sets of 5 reps is plenty. You have to remember that each jump is for maximum distance and height! Put your all into each jump! It's not necessary to do the froggers without the deep squat, but if you want to just do your third set that way.

Depth jumps (altitude drops) are also very important. You should also do these in small sets. These are a reactive element. You can absorb more force than you can absorb and redirect(which is what plyometrics are) so these depth jumps will be higher than the ones you do with a rebound. Eventually these can get to 10+ feet in the air with no problem! For the higher drops you should land on both feet at the same time, and try not to bend more than 45 degrees on landing. Don't increase the height until you are easily performing all reps within that range for a few sessions. I'd do one set this way, and two sets with lower drops but landing in a lunge. This conditions your front leg to absorb force rapidly at the peak of your stride, which is when your front foot first hits the ground, and it also conditions the back leg to absorb force in the most extended position, which is when you start pulling it forward. Together this means increasing the power of your entire stride, which means faster strides and more power per stride.

Depth jumps with a rebound are really the last plyo element you need for what you do. Stepping off of a short box(12 inches should be plenty,a nd if you increase it you should only increase an inch at a time, and only if you can maintain the same punch! This is not an element where you want to add much depth. You'd be better off adding weight at your waist or in a vest, and doing so 1-2% of BW at a time, giving your body at least a month to adjust before increasing again) , you punch the ground with the balls of your feet as soon as you're close enough to hit. Your goal here is minimum time touching the ground! Don't concentrate on height, because your froggers will get you in the habit of subconsciously setting your feet first. Instead, concentrate on punching with the greatest possible force! This will rocket you up as well, but the important thing is to remember that this exercise exists for training your feet and ankles to rapidly generate force without power loss, NOT to jump high!

I'd put this into four rounds:

Round 1 & 2:

Deep frogger x 4-5

High depth jump x 4-5

Depth jump w/rebound x 4-5

Round 3 & 4:

High frogger x 4-5

Lower depth jump landing in lunge x 4-5

depth jump w/rebound x 4-5

I'd rest about a minute per exercise(thogh if you want to try 30-45s, be my guest. You should always rest for whatever time allows for the most forceful reps) and 3-5 minutes between rounds.

That's a maximum of 15 minutes rest between rounds plus 16 minutes total rest between exercises plus not more than 12 total minutes of actually performing the exercises, though I haven't a clue how you'd make it take that long! That makes for a 43 minute plyometric workout. You should keep yourself on a timer so you know if you're screwing around. You can take up to 57 minutes if you find you need closer to 2 minutes between exercises, but I don't think you will.

You will get more out of this one workout than you do out of the two you are doing, because you will be training your nervous system for higher output. Don't do more than this, because you will be lifting heavy tomorrow, and while the volume will be low you will still need your CNS to not be completely fried!

Maximal strength: The purpose of this is to add more contractile fibers(actin and myosin) to your muscle fibers. This allows your endurance muscles to produce MORE FORCE! That means you will have the same endurance but higher strength. That makes you a faster runner. You need to put your heart and soul into this workout, because this is important. You won't kill yourself here, but what you do needs to be all out!

Work sets: These are going to be 5 reps as a goal. You need to find a weight that you can handle for 6-7 reps max and use that. This will take some experimentation!

Get away from that leg extension machine, that's crap. Seriously. That needs to be replaced with Squats.

2 sets SLS: This should be a good warm up for the barbell squats. Yes, you do need to barbell squat. That is massively important!

Full ROM BB squat: 2 sets 5-6 reps. On your second set, if you think you can do more reps, do more reps. If you get past 7 it's time to up the weight a little bit. Never increase more than 2%. If you don't have small plates available, use bottles of water and string. 16oz of water is 1.025 lb, so you can consider that 1 lb and 8 oz half a pound. You'll only need a few water bottles to be able to progress in whatever small steps you need! Form is EVERYTHING here. I'll probably have to make a video on how to do these correctly because it can be tough at first and many people will literally need to re-learn how to squat.

1 set 5 reps stiff leg deadlift

1 set 5 reps regular deadlift

1 set 5 reps Natural Leg curl (BtGB)

1 set 5 reps GHR (do you have BtGB?)

2 sets supine hip extension

This will be a tough workout. 10 sets. This could take an hour, and that's fine! You'll need to rest 3-5 minutes, regardless of whether you feel fresh after your first few sets at 2 minutes rest. This will keep you going through the rest of the workout!

That's it for the week. If you REALLY feel super good on Saturday, do round 1 and round 3 of the plyometric workout. Don't do more than that, even if you feel better at the end than you did at the beginning! That's a good sign, which means you're not over-training. At first, you should just rest on Saturday. After a month, if you feel up to it give it a shot. This may be something you do every OTHER weekend, and that's FINE!

The Sunday jog should be very slow, and go for 20-30 minutes. This is not anywhere near intense enough to cause fiber-type conversion, so don't worry about that. It just helps flush waste products and get more blood flowing in your body, which will speed up recovery.

Remember, this is all about making you the best middle-distance runner possible, not the strongest lifter or highest jumper. You should notice you are performing better within a few weeks. Do NOT add anything on! That is super, super SUPER important! I'm cereal! (Al Gore humor, sorry)

You will also benefit immensely from performing fascial stretches. I can explain more on that later if you like, I just spend a bunch of time typing and thinking lol!

I know I did not put anything out there for your endurance lifting day, and I will later.

Wow, that was a lot of helpful info. A few questions, does a 45-degree bend (in depth jumps) mean you dont bend your leg more than 45 degrees from straight or that you don't bend it past a 45 degree angle (like in a deep squat)? And I do have BtGB, but I tried natural leg curls on a sit up bench but it felt like putting so much pressure on my knee while the patella was moving around wasn't a good idea. It's kind of hard to describe.

Pictures for the heavy isometrics would be helpful. And what is the back extension isometric? Also, is strength endurance the type of weight training I'm already doing (3 sets of 12 reps)?

Thanks so much, this all sounds like it makes sense.

kirk said:

Wow, that was a lot of helpful info. A few questions, does a 45-degree bend (in depth jumps) mean you dont bend your leg more than 45 degrees from straight or that you don't bend it past a 45 degree angle (like in a deep squat)? And I do have BtGB, but I tried natural leg curls on a sit up bench but it felt like putting so much pressure on my knee while the patella was moving around wasn't a good idea. It's kind of hard to describe.

Pictures for the heavy isometrics would be helpful. And what is the back extension isometric? Also, is strength endurance the type of weight training I'm already doing (3 sets of 12 reps)?

Thanks so much, this all sounds like it makes sense.

Yea, strength endurance is what you're already doing. That can be optimized still, but that's definitely going to be your "bread and butter." The maximal strength work is only there to maximize the force you can produce continuously over your events by strengthening all the fibers as described in the last post!

The 45 degree bend means 45 degrees from straight, so it's a little past a quarter squat. Make sure you start conservatively on depth jumps and progress slowly, gravity increases forces quite a lot with each inch of additional height. Be even MORE conservative with the depth jump with rebound! To be safe you may want to start of of a 4-6 inch step at first. Always go for maximum punch off the ground.

I'll get something up in the next few weeks for heavy isometrics. The next time I do them I'll probably just take video and edit it to look how I want it to, with explanations and stuff. It's pretty simple, but if you've never done it before it can be hard to imagine.

For the NLC, I find that good roofing knee pads are what I need. They'll cost you 20-30 bucks at the hardware store but you'll never need to replace them! That makes a HUGE difference. Try them out in the store to make sure you get the right ones.

Patellar discomfort is never a good thing! I sometimes feel mine move a little, but usually not. I'm thinking of an alternate bench design to help with that, I'll put it up if I ever get to make it.

kirk said:

I tried natural leg curls on a sit up bench but it felt like putting so much pressure on my knee while the patella was moving around wasn't a good idea. It's kind of hard to describe.

put a rolled up towel under your shin... right before your knee...

i prefer to do them on a decline board (feet at the top and head at the bottom)... i feel it increases range of motion... you can make it harder by holding weight or by using a band... weight makes it harder at the bottom... band makes it harder at the top...

side note... starting at the bottom helps prevent cramps...

hope this helps... good luck...

thanks, both the towel and kneepads (i already had some) helped. im assisting myself by just pushing on the bench (pretty lightly) and then letting go as soon as i can. they're pretty tough!

i attempted heavy isometrics today. ha. for squats, i can never get the bar to rest comfortably on my neck shoulders (the football coach was in the gym and we tried thicker bars, towels, etc.). im super skinny so my boniness is definitely the problem. i tried the front squat position, but i don't think you can hold as much weight. grr. i ended up doing it on the leg press machine, i loaded it up with like 600 lbs and just extended it with my legs and held it. my legs were shaky but it didn't feel too hard. then i dropped some of the weight and did the deep squat position, i had two guys spot me for the way up. i figured using a machine wouldn't be as bad if it was an isometric. the NLC was okay, i wasn't sure which angle to hold it so i held it at the furthest angle down possible. the lunges and back extensions with weight were weird.

i did the plyos on saturday and will do them again tomorrow, they were fine.

For upper body, i've come up with a good routine from EMI's The Fundamentals of Bodyweight Strength Training that I think will work. the WOD's looked great but leaving out the sprinting and lower body exercises each day just was changing it too much.

Go buy a Manta Ray! It's a plastic mold that snaps onto the bar, and is molded to rest comfortably on your back. It spreads the weight a lot and helps keep the bar in the right place! It's a great device to use for squats until your upper back develops enough to handle the bar comfortably!

Good adaptation, in the meantime! You'll be absolutely shocked at how much you can hold in the leg press! I could do full range reps with 900 lbs when I was 180 lbs. Recently I've done good reps with 1480 lbs, I believe that was my PR. That was just to a 90 degree angle at hips and knees though. There wasn't enough weight in the gym to even bother with trying isometrics lol! Once you get the right training aids you'll find that the squat is really the way to go. In the meantime, leg press is better than nothing. Hold the top with slightly bend knees!

With NLC, you're doing it exactly right. Your angle will SLOWLY get bigger as time goes on.

With the WODS issue, I'd say just warm up with some upper body sets. The high heart rate is ideal, but not completely necessary to make great gains.

Make sure to give me some updates about how your actual performance is affected as time passes!

Haha I actually tried the manta ray cause there was one at the gym but it didn't feel like it made it any better. I mean I have a bigger upper back than most distance runners cause i climb, but that's not saying much haha. I think ill stick with stealing all the 45 plates in the gym and the leg press for now.

I'll post if my times drop at nationals coming up, they should anyway but hopefully even more so cause of plyos/weights.

Thanks again!

No problem! Remember, the high-end strength work is ONLY there to enhance your endurance strength! None of the weight training sessions should make you tired. The only one that might come close is your strength endurance workouts.

update: i got back from nationals, we won the 4x800 in 8:17, i was third leg and held us in the lead, and in the 3000 i raced hard but the strategy i used didn't work because of how fast the field went out so my time wasn't a PR. It was a good meet though.

I'm taking a week-long break from running, even though xc officially starts tomorrow. Any tips on what i should do for my strength endurance work?

Sorry, I've been busy. I will try to get something posted up this week. Congratulations on your performance, great job!

Oh it's fine, no prob. I did BW pistols, single straight leg DL (calves cramping on NLC's) then some prehab stuff on the machines for today. I'm feeling the single straight leg DL's a lot right now haha. And thanks!