Prerequisites?

There are some very good posts in this thread German hang as a prereq for BL

Chin-Grip Hang ==> German Hang ==> BL progression is to work on conditioning the biceps at the elbow joint.

The pain in my elbow is not on the biceps tendon, it is on the lateral epicondyle & the common extensor tendon. It feels like tissue tightness (adherence?) from torquing the forearm into position... I guess that biceps tendon conditioning (and risk associated) will come when I can straighten my arms and hang some weight.

about the chin hang. I thought it was a joke at first too. I can do 20 chins on a good day, but I had to start my chin hangs at 15 seconds! Everyday is humbling with this stuff! But it is sooooo good!

hehe... I am not alone... 8)

FredInChina said:

(I used it to do my first shoulder dislocates in 30+ years a few weeks ago... with like 3x shoulder width grip; the handle barely cleared the head!)

The same thing happened to me Fred.... the first time I tried a dislocate with a stick I was immediately humbled into submission by my inflexibility... Needless to say, now I find myself using a medium strength resistance band to give me that extra bit of room when my shoulder capsule feels like its about out of range!! Funny how a lifetime of doing what I thought was pretty intense activity (ice hockey, motocross, water skiing, rock climbing, bodybuilding, etc) has resulted in me whipping my own ass through the most basic progressions in Coach's book!!!!.... makes me wish I'd been exposed to gymnastics ALOT earlier in my life!!

By the way- I read another one of your posts regarding Kyokushin Karate... had no idea what that was until I checked out some youtube vids.... Pretty intense Fred :shock: - John

Thanks JCook, yes it is intense; unfortunately, little time is spent "prehabing" (is that a word?) the body for the rigors of training... but I realize, reading the boards, that it is the case in most sports in most places, even at high level. I do not believe that Ice Hockey spends a lot of time "prehabing" athletes either; either they can jump at the deep end and survive, or they move on!

Because the information is made available by Coach Sommer, it would be easy to think that it has little value and can be found elsewhere or from other sources; this would be a grave mistake!

I am infinitely grateful to Coach Sommer, and the legion of his educated followers for this.

Fred

FredInChina said:

but I realize, reading the boards, that it is the case in most sports in most places, even at high level. I do not believe that Ice Hockey spends a lot of time "prehabing" athletes either; either they can jump at the deep end and survive, or they move on!

In my experience this is absolutely true.... however; any athletic endeavour I've chosen to subject myself to has always been as an independent and never part of an organization that provided any sort of structured program, professional hands on guidance, and regular specific training sessions so I wouldnt know what to expect on the "prehab" front in that respect.... I just know that I was very neglectful in that aspect of my training!!! I would accept any learning curve associated with a chosen discipline (good or bad) as simply 'taking my medicine' so to speak which would force me to research and practice on my own to progress. This was never really a problem when I was younger (33 now) as I was fortunate to have a healthy body that was capable of attaining a decent level of skill fairly quickly in whatever (or so it seemed) I put my mind to... That was then however; after many unnecessary injuries and perhaps some wasted talent I have a newfound appreciation for the value of time and proper well aimed instruction!! Accordingly, I've made the choice to attend Coach's may seminar next week for this exact reason... I feel the need to give myself the best possible chance of success in this new and somewhat daunting world of Gymnastics Strength Training!! - John

Hey guys, this may be a silly question, but here it goes:

Assuming I need to achieve 3X60sec. for each of the listed pre-reqs before moving on to harder FSP elements, should my MAX hold time for each pre-req actually be 120 seconds? Because in order to complete a SSC at 50% load, I would have to assume this to be the case - otherwise I would need to have work sets that are much more challenging.

At the moment I can hold 60 sec. or more in each of the pre-reqs but am far from a 120 sec. max hold in any. So how do I go about programming for such a steady state cycle?

I hope you can clear up my new-found confusion...!

Zach Armijo said:

I'm confused as to where you got 120s from? Which only furthers your confusion.

When you complete a SSC, you should be working at 50% capacity. So it was my thinking that if you are completing a SSC where you have work sets of 3x60 sec. then your max hold time would actually be 120 sec. (120 @ 50% = 60 sec. work sets, thus 3x60 sec. for the pre-reqs). I can very well be wrong about the need for a 120 max hold, but that's how I got the number anyways haha...

Thanks!

It would seem to me that if you can hold a static for 120 seconds it's time to move on... But I could be wrong.

A.J. said:

Zach Armijo said:

I'm confused as to where you got 120s from? Which only furthers your confusion.

When you complete a SSC, you should be working at 50% capacity. So it was my thinking that if you are completing a SSC where you have work sets of 3x60 sec. then your max hold time would actually be 120 sec. (120 @ 50% = 60 sec. work sets, thus 3x60 sec. for the pre-reqs). I can very well be wrong about the need for a 120 max hold, but that's how I got the number anyways haha...

Thanks!

When you START a new SSC you should be working at 50% capacity.

When you finish you will have a greater capacity.

The pre-requisites are not recommended to be done in an 8-12 week SSC style manner, that is primarily for straight arm static holds.

The pre-requisites are also not supposed to be your only training. You are supposed to be doing push ups, pull ups, arch ups, GHR, etc.

In the beginning your primary pre-reqs are the hollow hold, arch hold, and perhaps a hang. After that you should be doing your FBE work. If that order interferes with FBE then do the FBE first.

For the pre-requisites you are typically going to hold until you are about to lose good form. For hollow hold that's a long way from full muscle exhaustion if you pay attention to your body position. When you achieve those three you should go ahead and maintain them, and work on the plank and reverse plank. You can always do them all at the same time, but many people seem to feel like that's a bit much, which is fine. If that is the case, just start with the three I mentioned and then maintain the results while you work on the others, and then maintain THOSE results while you go to the next level with the first three.

Thanks for the input guys. I will take your advice and re-test again tomorrow to see how I do with 3x60 sec. sets and not worry about max times. Should I perform all exercises as a circuit with 3 rounds or perform each exercise by itself 3 times in a row? If the later, how much rest in between attempts?

Since I'm in the process of recouping from an injury at the moment and so I wanted to evaluate myself from ground-zero again to really make sure that I have all the proper foundations before progressing this time around. Must improve the weak links!

I intended only to incorporate these exercises (hollow, arch, dead hang, plank, reverse plank, support) as a circuit during warmup before the WODs, similar to FSP training. If the pre-reqs are not to be done as a SSC, how do I proceed on the elements which I cannot do 3x60 sec. (I think I'll be on the bubble for dead hangs and ring supports, but I'll let you know tomorrow)? And on those which I can do 3x60 sec. of, should I just drop them and move on to the next FSP?

Thanks again!

Page 4 of this thread:

Adriano said:

Should these prerequisites (planks, holds, supports) be treated like FSPs; held for 50% max effort until 60 cumulated seconds for entire SSC? When do they become obsolete? (...)

mightyatom said:

(...) i have the same question, i cant do the prerequisites hollow and arch hold, and reverse plank for 60s. Should i use SSC protocol until i can reach 60s on those, and, meanwhile, i train the PB support and plank, at 50% max effort? (that would be 2 sets of 30s for me). (...)

Joshua Naterman said:

Yes to all of the above. SSC style is the best way to achieve the pre-requisites. (...)

Now:

Joshua Naterman said:

(...) The pre-requisites are not recommended to be done in an 8-12 week SSC style manner (...)

It is perfectly okay that things change and evolve over time, there are also many ways to skin a cat...

...Yet, it is understandable that some get a little bit confused at times.

Based on page 4 advice, I am in the middle of an SSC for my prerequisites, and it works well for me; I am enjoying the progress as measured by the reduction of effort I must produce, and the knowledge that doing this good work is reinforcing my soft tissues, and the proper neural pathways.

An SSC on prerequisites also teaches patience and, although it is maybe a bit on the conservative side, I believe it is not a bad thing.

I take from Joshua Naterman's latest advice that at some moment; probably when I can easily hold 3x30 seconds on each prerequisite, I should probably start working on max perfect holds (form, not muscle failure) in order to achieve a comfy 3x60s.

Then move on to the first FSPs under a strict SSC protocol and start preparing for straight arm, etc...

When that happens, I would keep the prerequisites as a 60 sec hold maintenance mode for a 6 min warm up.

Of course, this applies to me and may not be a good plan for everyone.

Or, maybe, someone will chime in with input that makes sense for me to adjust my plan.

For something like a planche lean, which is strictly a straight arm prerequisite, I would recommend SSC.

For most of the others, I wouldn't, but that really depends on the approach.

If you are focusing very strictly on the pre-requisites as your major work, which some people do need to do, then I would recommend not following an 8-12 week SSC and instead go to just shy of losing perfect form with each set for 2-3 sets each.

If, however, you are working the pre-requisites but are still doing full body FBE work (or full body lifting, or whatever... as long as you're working your strength and strength-endurace in all muscle groups) then I WOULD recommend an SSC.

Think about it: You can't push 70-80% intensity in your warm up AND your workout for multiple sets. You'll burn out. You have to pick one, and there really isn't a wrong way to go from a pure physical training perspective.

From a gymnastic perspective, I think that the best thing for a beginner to do would be to focus on

1) hollow hold

2) wall handstand

3) hollow plank

4) arch hold

5) horizontal and vertical pulls

6)PB support

for the following reasons:

4 and 5 help balance out the others and are the beginning of building a strong scapular and spinal musculature. They are primarily prehab in this phase, though we are probably all aware that pulling strength is important for strength elements as well. This sets a good foundation.

1 and 3 help you learn a good hollow. This is important for 2 to be effective.

6 is the very basic pre-requisite for all supported work other than push ups, so that has to be considered a basic requirement as well.

Focusing on these, with some rotator cuff work a few times per week to build and maintain a strong stabilizing structure, is the best and fastest way to learn the body shapes we will use for virtually everything. Only when the body shapes are perfect and you possess excellent endurance in them will you be able to successfully build strength onto them.

Does that make sense? It may not. The 2nd edition is going to have all of this stuff laid out very, very plainly so don't worry if you can't make sense of it right now.

I can't give a more detailed explanation, this is really the limit of what is not a breach of contract. This is all public knowledge scattered throughout the forum, and this post probably sums it all up as neatly as I am capable of.

Thanks slizz. Can't wait for the 2nd Edition - fingers crossed it will be soon!

Very clear and helpful Mr Naterman, thank you; I agree, that sums it up very nicely in one concise post

This is a routine that I have used pretty successfully amongst friends and clients to get them started on basic strength. 3-4 times per week of this and only this will quickly get you to the stage of tackling most of the basic progressions in coach's book:

Prehab:

Wrist Prehab (10x 5 wrist pushups, coach's set)

Shoulder Prehab (10 x dislocates, dorsal dislocates, wall extensions)

Shi Da Pan (a set of flexibility/mobility stuff as well as basic leg strength from my martial arts)

Static:

60s of total work. Once above 30s, do 2 sets of whatever you are getting to until you can do one 60s hold

Arch

Hollow

Prone Support

Supine Support

Lateral Support Left

Lateral Support Right

PB Support

Dead Hang

German Hang (if they can get around)

Working up to static work:

Jump into FL tuck with negative lower (most couldn't hold the tuck so jump and come straight down, whilst attempting to hold for as long as possible to train the contraction

Cast Wall Walks (couple of steps up the wall to where their strength allows, hold for 10 seconds, walk down)

Dynamic Work:

Facing Wall Squats

Basic Crawl patterns

Monkey Bars

Jumping patterns

Sometimes I will add in pushups and rows. Usually the people are too weak for most other dynamic strength work from the book or even the killroy template.

Most of the people I have started with are people who do not have a good basis of strength, could not kick up into a handstand nor hold themselves there if they were lifted up, and generally had about a 5 second hold on a hollow. This little set gets them up to speed and ready to tackle the book material within one cycle generally if they practice well.

I got a few questions regarding the pre fsps too:

Plank:

what is the ideal direction of the palms? forwards or backwards? i'm doing them with palms forward, but my planche work with palms backwards. is this ok?

Reverse Plank:

i think my shoulders should be extracted and down right?

i have my glutes and legs tensed. but what about the core?? should i try to arch as mutch as possible or try to be in a straight line?

Hollow:

i know my lower back has to be flat on the ground. But despite that, how high would i want to raise my arms and legs?

how would the ideal hollow look like? i guess lower back on the ground and arms and legs as close as possible to the

ground right?

Arch:

- do the legs have to be closed together or slightly opened up while performing the arch hold?

- how high should i raise my arms and legs? my legs, arms and chest are raised in the air, so only my stomach is touching the ground. is this ok? or should i try to raise arms and legs to the maximum?

Wall Handstand:

what are important things to look for here? how far the hands should be away from the wall? i guess ideally they would touch the wall right?

Support Hold:

what is the exact shoulder position? pressed down or more protracted like in a planche?

Chin Hang:

I've read shoulders should be totally relaxed. so they are nearly touching the ears right?

should i completely lock my arms or just let them hang slightly bend?

what about the rest of the body? hang down completely relaxed or being tensed (hollow)?

ok that's all for now. hope someone could clarify....

so long

Plank: doesn't matter. fingers forward. I do planche leans both ways. Meh.

Reverse/Inverse Plank: think tight arch like a chinese circle. Try to arch so you cannot see your toes while attempting to look at them

Hollow: A few inches. Think less angle than a crescent moon more like an oval.

Arch: ideally legs together but some people are going to have a gap between their knees or feet when their thighs touch. Sounds fine. Keep Head neutral, ears covered. Really I prefer for gymnasts to start leaning forward onto their upper abs/chest in time but I really like Locust position. Arch/Superman bores me.

Wall HS: Pretty darn close, a few inches. It's not likely to have the wrists where the floor meets the wall without creating a shoulder angle due to the width of the chest. We want an open shoulder angle. Some people will say smush your entire hips, thighs, stomach, and chest into the wall. Some prefer just on the toes or instep touching the wall.

Support hold. Elbows turned out, externally rotated. Long neck, shoulders pressed down. L hold should be similar.

Dead hang in supinated or pronated grip: Just relax and don't fall off the bar. Arms straight. I prefer to keep my body tight but shoulders in my ears as my flexibility allows for that. Some people can't with tight shoulders. Sometimes I will think about lengthening my spine to sort of stretch it out.

For basic static work, start with a L hang. Possibly easier than an L-sit in my opinion. Can be down drooping down or in tuck shape.

I would inverse plank to those basic 6, Josh. Good for shoulder health. I would just say skin the cats, but those can be tasking for beginners.

As well I'm not overly fond of the bent arm/forearm planks. Boring. I do like an inverse plank on forearms though.

Maybe bridges. I actually really like head bridges but I doubt I would subscribe them for the general populace.

Blairbob said:

For basic static work, start with a L hang. Possibly easier than an L-sit in my opinion. Can be down drooping down or in tuck shape.

I find L-hang to be very hard on my shoulders. Leverage puts them in a disadvantaged position, so if you have shoulder problems, you may want to hold of on L-hangs and just do PB L. You have a solid PB support hold by then anyway.

ok thx Blairbob. Most of my questions are answered now.

But the support hold still gives me headache...

You said you want to have the shoulders externally rotated. so you would have to open up the chest.

If i do what you said, I slightly am in an arched position due to the open chest.

Doesn't you just want to press your shoulders down and minimally internal rotated? Really just a minimal internal rotation...unlike in a planche where you want to protract to the max.

I've just found a thread which covers the same problem.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6658

Blairbob and all the others, what do you think?

Just rotate your elbows out rather than in.

On another note:

Do tuck hang instead of L. I dunno if you can't do an L-hang, you aren't ready for tuck FL or virtually anything in a hang for a tap swing or glide swing which basically means you aren't ready for jack on rings or a bar. Of course, you have to develop a solid hang and the ability to do shrugs in hang. That's mobility/prereq 101.

I do have some questions about dead hangs.

1) should i fully straighten my arms or just let them hang?

2) should i let my body relax or be in a hollow position

3) should my shoulders totally relax and touch my ears or should i press them down?

so long

Zach Armijo said:

It always amuses me when people over analyze a dead hang. Just hang, totally relaxed, nothing more.

Only thing you should expend effort on is gripping the rings or the bar.

However, I do wonder which one is the preferred option, since rings turn inward like 30 degrees with me and a bar simply can't do that.

I really wish I could cuss right now. I am so sick of repeating this.

It is just a hang (see I can't even use expletives).

Your shoulders will get in your ears if they are flexible enough.

If you so wish you can do it pronated and supinated or neutral. You can hang on the rings and turn them if it pleases you to loosen the shoulder up.

If you are doing it on bar, I'd say use both pronated and supinated. On the rings, just turn them in and out to play with that shoulder joint.

To note, in the bottom of a HB/PB/SR swing you must have the shoulder extended or you will jerk the hell out of it, especially if you swing big or do giants.

Thanks Blair. Sorry for pissing you off though.

Don't be sorry. I'm not PO'd nor did you cause it Rik.

This is now about the 5th time or maybe even more we have gone over clarifying a "dead" hang. It's a bit ridiculous. It's almost amusing if it wasn't sad.