Structural Balance Testing and Progressions

Dear Everyone,

Is there something in gymnastics like the structural balance testing that is for example used by Coach Poliquin for weight training ?

For example that you need to be at progression X in horizontal pulling and progression Y at vertical pulling and progression Z in Multiplane pressing to be in structural balance and making proper progress and risk being injury free. Are there any forms of this in gymnastics ? Like for example needing to be able to do a certain amount of wrist pushups (in a certain body position) to thoroughly boost progess in Handstands/Planches, or other skills that have to be balanced with eachother.

If it does, I feel like it would be a tremendous help to help people identify their weak links and get a better goal oriented form of training.

- Ido's recommendation of being able to do Cuban Presses with 50% body weight for reps for example.

Also, I love the entire concept of proper progression before skills by the way! Here's a list of the things I've found so far from this forum;

Handstand work translates to nearly EVERYTHING gymnastics; HSPU/Free standing handstands/Press to handstand have a tremendous carryover to all pushing and balance oriented, and work a great deal for midsection strength as well.

Basic L-Sit is one of the foremost statics that has to be worked before indulging into others, a basic 3x30 second L-Sit (proper form) is a minimal requirement to start working on the Planche.

The Back Lever is the second thing on the list that has a humongeous carryover to both the Planche and the Front Lever and is essential to master before attempting to master the other two. Before attempting Back Lever progressions one should start by first getting a solid 3x30 second German Hang.

To even consider starting the Manna; One needs to have a 30 second Advanced L-Sit, a proper 30 second Ring Straddle-L before even considering the first variation.

Further with statics, it is absolutely essential that you spend ALOT of time in development of the variation you are currently able to work comfortably. If you'd go by the basic TUT rules (although they do not apply that well for statics), 5-20 seconds is in the maximal strength zone, 20-70 gets closer to the hypertrophy zone. You should be shooting for doing 15 seconds+ for sets (5 or more) with proper form before even considering looking at a harder variation.

Another fun thing to do with that principal is undulating your training, do a single day with advanced tuck front lever (for example) of which 50% of your max is 6 seconds. You do 10 sets of that for 6 sec x 10. Then the next training day; you go back to the normal tuck front lever, take your 50% off of that and do for example (if your max is 30 seconds) 5-10 sets of 15 seconds. (I forgot where I got the last 2 tips from, but they rock, thanks to who told them).

Other things&Random tidbits;

-Never do Planche/HS work without proper wrist prehab before or after or in between.

-Do not solely do max strength days; Acculmulation of volume is just as important for progress.

-There is no way of quantifying improvement in numbers except for sets and reps, so if unsure about how to get to the next progression of an exercise, improve the sets and reps of your current one!

- Work your shoulder mobility whenever you can, it's one of your main and mandatory tools to proper progression.

- Get your muscle up/handstand/L-sit with priority, they open up the way to so many other strength skills and training forms (Muscle up -> Ring strength series, Handstand -> almost everything, L-sit -> Other statics).

- Mind your tempo; If going for strength development, slow, controlled negative + explosive controlled eccentric is one of the most basic but most effective ways to build strength. If the exercise has a stretch reflex that is abusable and you want to develop it properly, add a small static pause at the bottom. If you have a certain weak spot that you want to work, make the concentric slower and add an eventual isometric pause to the exercise.

- Educate yourself on rep variations and forms to structure a training, cluster training, twice a day training, certain forms of splits are all very potent ways to boost your strength gains and kickstart your progress.

- NEVER forget prehab (I've probably mentioned this before but it is so damn important.)

Does anyone have anything else to add to this ?

The following are direct quotations from Coach Sommer:

-- My personal opinion is that for a fitness enthusiast the progression of L-sit to straddle L to MSH to Manna work would provide the greatest gains in the least amount of time. Maintainence work for the prior progression is of course necessary and is most easily accomplished by performing a 30 sec set for each of the prior steps in the progression before beginning that day's focused work.

-- My recommendation is first attain a 30 L-sit on the floor, then a 30 sec straddle L on the floor and finally a 30 sec MSH on the floor, before you begin to seriously work V-sits.

-- If L-sit Walks are too difficult, perform Ag Walks. If Ag Walks are too difficult, perform Planks.

-- Trainers fail to understand how to properly progress through the bodyweight strength progressions; e.g. pushups before dips, dips before HSPUs, German hangs before BL etc.

-- Yes, proficiency at MPPr/MPPu & CPP elements will require that substantial strength first be built in the other FBE areas. On GB WODs when even the easiest MPPr/MPPu elements are too difficult as RX'd; substitute regular push/pull movements.

-- My recommendation is to wait until you have achieved 3x30 sec L-sit on the floor before beginning PL work.

-- At your level [beginner who can‘t do full BL & FL], BL & FL will receive sufficient stimulation on your embedded static WOD days and your ring strength WOD days. Building up to 3x30sec of L-sit work on the floor as a part of your daily warmup is however a good idea.

These are really important posts! The vast wealth of info the book presents can be quite daunting and making these important points clear might help many a newcomer here.

Coach clearly makes the point in the book that the L-sit is of extreme importance. Along with the shoulder pre-hab work i try to add it to most of my BtGB sessions for the warm up now.

As this thread very clearly lays out some of the fundamentals of how to progress with statics, it could be a good candidate for a sticky.

Those are internal rotations.

Excellent post! Thanks for simplifying a lot of the info

As well, prior to a BL, a decent ring support should be achieved as well as possibly RTO support and dips.

Grate thread btw. I just have one question.

if you are not even supposed START working on the Planch before you have a 3*30sek L-sit (proper form) then why do even coach Sommer mention the early progressions towards Planch in BtGB? for example a person who can hold a Advanced Frog stand for 60s might not be able to hold a L-sit for than 10s. And most times I do not think someone who can hold 3*30 L-sit need to progress thru the first Frog stand.

Ok so I am confused you should be able to hold a L - sit for 3 X 30 sec but I thought the top hold is only for 1 min and 3X30 is 90 sec. so basacially make sure you can hold a L - sit for 3 x 30 sec before moving onto BL? My routine is based on holds combined with conditioning drills considering I am a bjj/boxing/ and muy thai practioner. So I work on HS holds for 12 rounds of 30's with 45's of shadow boxing, L - sits 10's with 45's on air dyne, pistons for reps combined with stair jumps 45's and then I do hangboard work for grip strength combined with burpees. I also through in some ring support at the end I can almost hold it for 60 sec. I really enjoy the gymnastic style strength training but I do my own style of it with conditioning thrown in cause there is no rest times in battle. Let me know what you guys think moderators or even coach on my ideas!

This is old, but...

The Back Lever is the second thing on the list that has a humongeous carryover to both the Planche and the Front Lever and is essential to master before attempting to master the other two.

Actually FL can be trained before BL especially for fitness enthusiasts and safety reasons (if you fail you don't faceplant).

L-sit should be 3x30/60. 30 can be done but 60 is preferred.

Frogstands are more about balance and developing wrist strength/flexibility and developing the elbow and shoulder to some degree.

Ideally if you have all your ducks in order in the prerequisites you should be able to progress through the levers and planche faster. If you don't, you may end up stalling out.

I prefer lists instead of these paragraphs, so here goes:

Pre-FSP

-3x60s: plank, reverse plank, arch, hollow, chinup grip dead hang, PB support.

Back levers

-3x30s: German Hang

-Decent ring support, RTO preferred

Planche

-3x30s: L-sit. 3x60s is preferred.

Manna

-30s: L-sit, straddle-L, MSH in that order. So first is a 30s L-sit, then a 30s straddle-L, then a 30s MSH and then you can start working on V-sits.

That sound about right?

First can someone tell me what FSP, FBE, and MSH means?

Also what I don't really get is why you should get good at the L-Sit before training for a planche. As far as I know planche is shoulder muscles + Posterior chain. L-Sit is abs so what does it have to do with it? :?

Rik de Kort said:

I prefer lists instead of these paragraphs, so here goes:

Pre-FSP

-3x60s: plank, reverse plank, arch, hollow, chinup grip dead hang, PB support.

Back levers

-3x30s: German Hang

-Decent ring support, RTO preferred

Planche

-3x30s: L-sit. 3x60s is preferred.

Manna

-30s: L-sit, straddle-L, MSH in that order. So first is a 30s L-sit, then a 30s straddle-L, then a 30s MSH and then you can start working on V-sits.

That sound about right?

Michel0555 said:

First can someone tell me what FSP, FBE, and MSH means?

Also what I don't really get is why you should get good at the L-Sit before training for a planche. As far as I know planche is shoulder muscles + Posterior chain. L-Sit is abs so what does it have to do with it? :?

FSP: Fundamental Static Positions. I don't even know why everybody here calls them that, I prefer "isometrics" or "statics" which makes it immediately clear that these are planche, back lever, front lever and manna.

FBE: Fundamental Bodyweight Exercises. "Movements", or "dynamics".

MSH: Middle Split Hold. Part of the Manna progression.

L-sit is more than just abs. In particular, depressing the scapula is very important in the L-sit. This is also why you see so many people performing the L-sit on pbars as it means they can be lazy with their scapula. I think it's also partly because of wrist conditioning.

FSP = fundamental static positions

FBE = fundamental bodyweight exercises

MSH = middle split hold

btw. : here you can find also other acronyms viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1434

I do not think that L sit works only abs, but triceps, quads, hips etc. as well (maybe, the whole body in a way)

I have always thought that all gymnastics static positions require something like fullbody tension, not only the tension in major muscle groups worked by particular exercise

(sorry for bad english, as a "stranger", I am not using your language too much, as well as grammar - thats why am I putting commas almost everywhere)

Rik de Kort said:

In particular, depressing the scapula is very important in the L-sit. This is also why you see so many people performing the L-sit on pbars as it means they can be lazy with their scapula. I think it's also partly because of wrist conditioning.

I doubt that it's because they're lazy and if it is because they're lazy then that's just going to hinder one to not make progress.

I know I do it on pbars for now because 1) I'm doing L sit low and 2) I don't have the flexibility of hamstrings for the floor.

Vincearoo said:

Rik de Kort said:

In particular, depressing the scapula is very important in the L-sit. This is also why you see so many people performing the L-sit on pbars as it means they can be lazy with their scapula. I think it's also partly because of wrist conditioning.

I doubt that it's because they're lazy and if it is because they're lazy then that's just going to hinder one to not make progress.

I know I do it on pbars for now because 1) I'm doing L sit low and 2) I don't have the flexibility of hamstrings for the floor.

I wasn't talking about people who are learning. It's just that most showoffs do them on pbars, because the L-sit on the floor is harder.