New here: Gymnastics + lifting weights for american football?

Hello everyone!

I am 26 years old, I used to do combat sports when I was younger but then I switched to american football couple of years ago, where I used to play a linebacker and later defensive end. During all this time I was lifting weight. I tried almost everything, bodybuilding style training, power lifting style training (since I was training in a powerlifting gym at one point for almost 2 years) and also olympic weightlifting. I have never seriously pursued bodyweight training because I was bored with only pushups and pullups and, regardless of how silly it may sound, I never believed I could do all this gymnasics stuff like handstands, planche, front lever, back lever, etc. That´s why I never even tried to pursue it. But now for the last 4 months during the lockdown I had no other option than to train bodyweight so I gave it a try. My "bible" so to speak has been the book called Overcoming Gravity by Steven Low. I also watch a lot of different youtube videos. But I feel like sometimes all of it lacks specificity with regards to my personal progress, so that´s why I decided to join here.

My strength is pretty average because I have never managed to be consistent with lifting weight. Always some forced layoff or injury happened. Now I have been seeing some really good progress in my gymnastics training. I can do wall handstands, I can do advanced tucked back lever on rings, tucked front lever and also stuff like skin the cat, german hang and icecream makers. I can also do RTO pushups (I think 6 repetitions in a rows was my max, I went slow and controlled), RTO holds, ring dips (probably 8-10 reps max in a slow controlled manner). I also do a lot of pullups, also weighted.

I am not playing football right now because of the whole pandemic situation but I am planning to come back in several months hopefully.However, I would like to keep training as a gymnast mostly because I really feel it is the most functional and the most effective way to train for an athlete. But I also feel like some stuff would perhaps be better achieved through weights, especially hypertrophy of some muscle groups. In football, especially as a defensive end, even as a linebacker, I need to have an extreme ability to extend my arms fully against resistance and keep them extended as long as I need to, firm and stable like concrete in this extended position.

My main goals for gymnastics trainnig are these:

-free handstand, as well as being able to walk on my hands and do handstand pushups

-planche hold, as well as planche pushups and being able to transition from this position to handstand (so I am able to transition between the two smoothly)

-360 degree turn  on rings (the one where you begin from front lever and go into back lever and then german hang and then back to beginning, all with body straight)

-pullups - being able to do at least 2x my bodyweight

-dips and pushups on rings - being able to do easily the leaning forward RTO variations

With regards to lifting weights, I just want to do front squats and some form of deadlifts to have a balanced functioning body as an athlete. But also I really want to focus on one pressing movement and that is the military press. I just want to be able to press as much weight above my head as possible. I think that transitions really well into football as well as gymnastics. Also in general, having insanely strong shoulders is one of the most important things for an athlete I believe. I also think that handling heavy weights sometimes is different than to for exaxmple do handstand pushups...I canot describe how is it different, I know that handstand pushups are insanely difficult to do and require enormous strength but I feel it is different than pressing let´s say 150 kg over your head. Besides the military press, I thought about supplementing this overhead pressing with incline bench press sometimes, for a change, and also to get some chest hypertrophy. Lastly, I also had this idea that sometimes I would really like to implement stuff like heavy front carries into my training or jus carry heavy bags for some distance, because it kind of mimicks human body and as a football player you need to be able to manhandle giant people.

Maybe you ask why I just don´t do weights, since it is what every football player does, even in NFL, so why not do what is proven to work...

Well, I just absolutely love gymnastics and I feel like these movements work my muscles like nothing before and make my muscles but ESPECIALLY my joints, ligaments and tendons much much stronger, stable and flexible all at the same time. So, even if I stop playing football I want to keep training gymnastics, I think it is a very sustainable way of training, even more than weights. But I know that it is a very long process to master all the movements properly.

I was recently trying to figure out how to program this and actually if it would even work - gymnastics + weights. Currently, I have been doing 4 days of gymnastics (2 pull days,  2 push days).

Do you think I could succesfuly combine these two? I know that there have already been some threads and posts about this, but I believe that so far nobody mentioned it in relation to american football, where the athlete needs to be extremely explosive and used to handling heavy objects (other players) effectively.

Please, let me know if you have any suggestions or tips. I will appreciate any advice.

Thank you all so much!

On 8/1/2020 at 1:24 PM, Tupac Rojas said:

Hello everyone!

I am 26 years old, I used to do combat sports when I was younger but then I switched to american football couple of years ago, where I used to play a linebacker and later defensive end. During all this time I was lifting weight. I tried almost everything, bodybuilding style training, power lifting style training (since I was training in a powerlifting gym at one point for almost 2 years) and also olympic weightlifting. I have never seriously pursued bodyweight training because I was bored with only pushups and pullups and, regardless of how silly it may sound, I never believed I could do all this gymnasics stuff like handstands, planche, front lever, back lever, etc. That´s why I never even tried to pursue it. But now for the last 4 months during the lockdown I had no other option than to train bodyweight so I gave it a try. My "bible" so to speak has been the book called Overcoming Gravity by Steven Low. I also watch a lot of different youtube videos. But I feel like sometimes all of it lacks specificity with regards to my personal progress, so that´s why I decided to join here.

 

My strength is pretty average because I have never managed to be consistent with lifting weight. Always some forced layoff or injury happened. Now I have been seeing some really good progress in my gymnastics training. I can do wall handstands, I can do advanced tucked back lever on rings, tucked front lever and also stuff like skin the cat, german hang and icecream makers. I can also do RTO pushups (I think 6 repetitions in a rows was my max, I went slow and controlled), RTO holds, ring dips (probably 8-10 reps max in a slow controlled manner). I also do a lot of pullups, also weighted.

I am not playing football right now because of the whole pandemic situation but I am planning to come back in several months hopefully.However, I would like to keep training as a gymnast mostly because I really feel it is the most functional and the most effective way to train for an athlete. But I also feel like some stuff would perhaps be better achieved through weights, especially hypertrophy of some muscle groups. In football, especially as a defensive end, even as a linebacker, I need to have an extreme ability to extend my arms fully against resistance and keep them extended as long as I need to, firm and stable like concrete in this extended position.

My main goals for gymnastics trainnig are these:

-free handstand, as well as being able to walk on my hands and do handstand pushups

-planche hold, as well as planche pushups and being able to transition from this position to handstand (so I am able to transition between the two smoothly)

-360 degree turn  on rings (the one where you begin from front lever and go into back lever and then german hang and then back to beginning, all with body straight)

-pullups - being able to do at least 2x my bodyweight

-dips and pushups on rings - being able to do easily the leaning forward RTO variations

 

With regards to lifting weights, I just want to do front squats and some form of deadlifts to have a balanced functioning body as an athlete. But also I really want to focus on one pressing movement and that is the military press. I just want to be able to press as much weight above my head as possible. I think that transitions really well into football as well as gymnastics. Also in general, having insanely strong shoulders is one of the most important things for an athlete I believe. I also think that handling heavy weights sometimes is different than to for exaxmple do handstand pushups...I canot describe how is it different, I know that handstand pushups are insanely difficult to do and require enormous strength but I feel it is different than pressing let´s say 150 kg over your head. Besides the military press, I thought about supplementing this overhead pressing with incline bench press sometimes, for a change, and also to get some chest hypertrophy. Lastly, I also had this idea that sometimes I would really like to implement stuff like heavy front carries into my training or jus carry heavy bags for some distance, because it kind of mimicks human body and as a football player you need to be able to manhandle giant people.

 

Maybe you ask why I just don´t do weights, since it is what every football player does, even in NFL, so why not do what is proven to work...

Well, I just absolutely love gymnastics and I feel like these movements work my muscles like nothing before and make my muscles but ESPECIALLY my joints, ligaments and tendons much much stronger, stable and flexible all at the same time. So, even if I stop playing football I want to keep training gymnastics, I think it is a very sustainable way of training, even more than weights. But I know that it is a very long process to master all the movements properly.

 

I was recently trying to figure out how to program this and actually if it would even work - gymnastics + weights. Currently, I have been doing 4 days of gymnastics (2 pull days,  2 push days).

 

Do you think I could succesfuly combine these two? I know that there have already been some threads and posts about this, but I believe that so far nobody mentioned it in relation to american football, where the athlete needs to be extremely explosive and used to handling heavy objects (other players) effectively.

Please, let me know if you have any suggestions or tips. I will appreciate any advice.

Thank you all so much!

 

Hi Tupas, well everything can be mixed and merged BUT with some conditions:

-if you want to do all you will have mediocre results on everything. you cannot focus on football preparation plus full gymnastics work plus full weights work and think to obtain results on everything. injury is the more probably ending of the story;

-on the opposite, you can take WHAT YOU NEED in order to have a good periodization and programming, something from gymnastics is good for football, something less, something is good from weight to football and something no.

The more you want to mix different sports and approaches the more the complexity of the programming and periodization raise.

The approach that makes sense should be:

-have a good vision of football;

-have a periodizing and programming plan;

-restructure the work by substitute some exercise of weight with bodyweight work and vice versa.

On 8/4/2020 at 10:29 AM, Alessandro Mainente said:

Hi Tupas, well everything can be mixed and merged BUT with some conditions:

-if you want to do all you will have mediocre results on everything. you cannot focus on football preparation plus full gymnastics work plus full weights work and think to obtain results on everything. injury is the more probably ending of the story;

-on the opposite, you can take WHAT YOU NEED in order to have a good periodization and programming, something from gymnastics is good for football, something less, something is good from weight to football and something no.

The more you want to mix different sports and approaches the more the complexity of the programming and periodization raise.

The approach that makes sense should be:

-have a good vision of football;

-have a periodizing and programming plan;

-restructure the work by substitute some exercise of weight with bodyweight work and vice versa.

Thank you so much for advice Alessandro!

You know, I thought about how crossfit athletes manage to train literally everything from olympic lifting to gymnastics to running and loaded carries and so much more. I wonder how do they combine the gymnastic training and lifting weights to progress in both. What do you think about that?

Also, for me, I just want to get to that level of bodyweight strength where I can play around. For example, handstand pushups and all the different ways to transition to handstand and also planche hold and planche pushups. I feel like that level of straight arm strength would really benefit me in football...plus, I think it is very cool to be able to control your body like that.

However, I am not sure if working on all the different progressions alone can provide me with sufficient stimulus.

For example, I have been doing 2 days pull (working on back lever and pullups plus ring rows) and 2 days of push (focusing both days on planche progression but the accessory work was more chest/horizontal pressing focused one day and the other day more shoulder/vertical pressing focused. 

I feel like sometimes I have lack of stimulus. I feel it the most on vertical pressing because I am too weak to do handstand pushups but I can do pike pushups, so I am kind of stuck with lack of vertical pressing. Also, for example on pull day, pullups are more than enough for vertical pulling...but for horizontal, I feel that ring rows are too easy already ... but I am too weak to do for example tuck front lever pulls.

So it's these little holes in my training that I would like to fill with some weight training. I am not sure what to do. 

23 hours ago, Tupac Rojas said:

Thank you so much for advice Alessandro!

You know, I thought about how crossfit athletes manage to train literally everything from olympic lifting to gymnastics to running and loaded carries and so much more. I wonder how do they combine the gymnastic training and lifting weights to progress in both. What do you think about that?

 

Also, for me, I just want to get to that level of bodyweight strength where I can play around. For example, handstand pushups and all the different ways to transition to handstand and also planche hold and planche pushups. I feel like that level of straight arm strength would really benefit me in football...plus, I think it is very cool to be able to control your body like that.

However, I am not sure if working on all the different progressions alone can provide me with sufficient stimulus.

For example, I have been doing 2 days pull (working on back lever and pullups plus ring rows) and 2 days of push (focusing both days on planche progression but the accessory work was more chest/horizontal pressing focused one day and the other day more shoulder/vertical pressing focused. 

I feel like sometimes I have lack of stimulus. I feel it the most on vertical pressing because I am too weak to do handstand pushups but I can do pike pushups, so I am kind of stuck with lack of vertical pressing. Also, for example on pull day, pullups are more than enough for vertical pulling...but for horizontal, I feel that ring rows are too easy already ... but I am too weak to do for example tuck front lever pulls.

So it's these little holes in my training that I would like to fill with some weight training. I am not sure what to do. 

Usually, cross-fitters who do all of the gymnastics, weightlifting, and endurance work with high frequency get injured or...they pass on the "dark side" of the fitness world but simply because you cannot hold too much volume.

As for the mixed martial arts you should train 5-6 years of kickboxing, 5-6 years of Brazilian jujitsu, and 5-6 years of box, then you can mix them obtaining results. same as CrossFit, learn good technique from weightlifting (5 years minimum), same for gymnastics (especially recover mobility and then basic strength), and build a base of cardio and muscle endurance (2-4 years). then you can mix them.

I have one client who trained with me 7 years ago reaching impressive results (he was one of my first students)..then after 4 years he passed to maintaining the GST work and exploring weightlifting....now after 3 years he is competing on Crossfit.

From my perspective, if you lack vertical pressing and general upper bodywork you can follow the foundation's work. but for mixing everything i think that you need someone who follow you face to face.

1 hour ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

Usually, cross-fitters who do all of the gymnastics, weightlifting, and endurance work with high frequency get injured or...they pass on the "dark side" of the fitness world but simply because you cannot hold too much volume.

As for the mixed martial arts you should train 5-6 years of kickboxing, 5-6 years of Brazilian jujitsu, and 5-6 years of box, then you can mix them obtaining results. same as CrossFit, learn good technique from weightlifting (5 years minimum), same for gymnastics (especially recover mobility and then basic strength), and build a base of cardio and muscle endurance (2-4 years). then you can mix them.

I have one client who trained with me 7 years ago reaching impressive results (he was one of my first students)..then after 4 years he passed to maintaining the GST work and exploring weightlifting....now after 3 years he is competing on Crossfit.

From my perspective, if you lack vertical pressing and general upper bodywork you can follow the foundation's work. but for mixing everything i think that you need someone who follow you face to face.

Thank you! That was very helpful.

Actually, when I think about that approach that you described, I basically have several years experience with lifting weights (as strength and conditioning) so maybe I could kind of maintain that and mix in the main focus of learning gymnastics...but I am not sure if that counts (since I mixed periodically differrent styles - bodybuilding, powerlifting and olymlic weightlifting...even a bit of strongman, like loglifts) .... so I dont have several years of nonstop experience in one specific discipline but it is more dispersed in my case.

You know, this is the main thing that keeps popping up in my mind...my main goals are 2: 

a) master handstand and handstand pushups as well as various ways of how to get into HS like from pike position etc...

b) master planche hold and planche pushups

This is gonna take couple of years I believe, based on what I saw in other people.

However....what I keep wondering nonstop is if after those years when I will master my bodyweight through these movements , even though I will be strong in those positions, will this strength translate well also to other non-gymnastic endeavours? 

In other words, to what extent do you think this relative strength ( acquired by gymnastic training) can translate to absolute strength?

To be more specific, I try to show it on this example. There is me and then there is football player B. We both use let's say 2-3 years for improving our functional strength, meaning being able to explode into huge strong people, tackle them, lift them up, etc. I read that gymnasts who master planche can benchpress 2x their BW so I think this will increase my strength which I need PLUS give me the added benefit which only weights dont give me and that is insane joint stability, ligament strength, flexibility, body control and awareness. The guy B only does typical strength training for football like a lot of benchpress and overhead press plus of course other lifts.

After these 2-3 years, how do you think we will compare as athletes? Will I gain advantage in some aspects (not only as a football player but as an athlete in general) ? Will it have some downfalls for me? Or not?

I always wonder about this. I just wanna spend the next 2-3 years to becoming the best athlete I can ( of course even after that) and do training that will help me in that.

I always thought gymnasts are probably the best athletes in the entire world, thats why I decided to do it.

On 8/8/2020 at 11:45 AM, Tupac Rojas said:

Thank you! That was very helpful.

Actually, when I think about that approach that you described, I basically have several years experience with lifting weights (as strength and conditioning) so maybe I could kind of maintain that and mix in the main focus of learning gymnastics...but I am not sure if that counts (since I mixed periodically differrent styles - bodybuilding, powerlifting and olymlic weightlifting...even a bit of strongman, like loglifts) .... so I dont have several years of nonstop experience in one specific discipline but it is more dispersed in my case.

 

You know, this is the main thing that keeps popping up in my mind...my main goals are 2: 

a) master handstand and handstand pushups as well as various ways of how to get into HS like from pike position etc...

b) master planche hold and planche pushups

This is gonna take couple of years I believe, based on what I saw in other people.

However....what I keep wondering nonstop is if after those years when I will master my bodyweight through these movements , even though I will be strong in those positions, will this strength translate well also to other non-gymnastic endeavours? 

In other words, to what extent do you think this relative strength ( acquired by gymnastic training) can translate to absolute strength?

To be more specific, I try to show it on this example. There is me and then there is football player B. We both use let's say 2-3 years for improving our functional strength, meaning being able to explode into huge strong people, tackle them, lift them up, etc. I read that gymnasts who master planche can benchpress 2x their BW so I think this will increase my strength which I need PLUS give me the added benefit which only weights dont give me and that is insane joint stability, ligament strength, flexibility, body control and awareness. The guy B only does typical strength training for football like a lot of benchpress and overhead press plus of course other lifts.

After these 2-3 years, how do you think we will compare as athletes? Will I gain advantage in some aspects (not only as a football player but as an athlete in general) ? Will it have some downfalls for me? Or not?

I always wonder about this. I just wanna spend the next 2-3 years to becoming the best athlete I can ( of course even after that) and do training that will help me in that.

I always thought gymnasts are probably the best athletes in the entire world, thats why I decided to do it.

 

It depends on the type of sports. your body reflects what you train so if in your sport you must move and external load while you are in a static position like pushing an opponent you should use similar exercises. in a phase of general strength preparation, both weights and body weight can be used. but in the long term, whats makes difference is the translation to the specific strength, or power, or power endurance. 

the problem is that GST and wights sometimes uses different motor schema, for example a planche pushup is not like a benchpress. considering the utilization of the bicep in the abduction range of motion probably benchpress is better..but is also known that usually some football positions are done more with plank posture.

there are many many many considerations to do. in the world of sports programming and periodizing you need a person to know perfectly the biomechanics of the sports and that finally, he evaluates alternatives. but i personally ignore completely the movements and bio-mechanics of football so i do not think i can help you more than that..

for example, recently i have started to make the physical preparation of an Italian Olympic swimmer but i have spent 8-10 hours plus with his technical coach and studying the biomechanics of the swimming freestyle and butterfly and after the model was revolutionized completely...

I understand. It seems quite comlex, especially considering that correct programming is so crucial for the success of athlete.

Actually, what do you think about a sport like wrestling, where you need to lift other people up and slam them, take them down etc...how do you think gymnastics training would apply to this? 

9 hours ago, Tupac Rojas said:

I understand. It seems quite comlex, especially considering that correct programming is so crucial for the success of athlete.

Actually, what do you think about a sport like wrestling, where you need to lift other people up and slam them, take them down etc...how do you think gymnastics training would apply to this? 

It depends on the specific movement and technique for lifting people etc.

10 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

It depends on the specific movement and technique for lifting people etc.

You know actually when I think about it, in football you don't press horizontally like benchpress. It is more an incline press even vertical/overhead press. 

So for such overhead pressing strength / vertical pressing strength, do you think gymnastic training would be a good training stimulus? Or do you think there could be some limitations? (if compared to other types of strength training, for example weights)

You press and external load, so based on logic and similar activation you must press something external from you and not your body.