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Guest Ido Portal

Superman is alive and 19

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Guest pkmg

(On a side note, I guess when you say work capacity, you don't mean "work capacity" as in Crossfits fitness "definition", right?)

What's their definition?

Their "definition" of fitness is something along the lines of "increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains".

In my understanding their "work capacity" is just move loads over long distance quick. So that would be very general.

I thought in the context of this thread work capacity might be more specific to the training/sport you are doing.

For example high work capacity in Olifting doesn't necessarily mean high work capacity in long distance running. (But I guess that again comes down to that argument of GPP versus Specialization etc.)

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Joshua Naterman

Work capacity, in any context, means the amount of physical work( meaning motion through the application of muscular force) that can be done over a period of time. Different periods seem to confuse people into thinking it's a different concept, but it's not.

For example, the most common period is a workout. If you find out that you crap out completely after 90 minutes from a certain amount of work, and over time you still crap out at 90 minutes but you are doing 10 more sets than you were, then you have increased your 90 minute work capacity. When you are able to sustain this increased work capacity over longer terms, such as doing the same workout schedule, with more work, without negatively impacting your health or recovery, you have increased your longer term work capacity.

They are tied together. This appears to be wrong, but is not. Over time your body will adapt to small amounts of over-reaching, and as long as you're not over-reaching too far your body will change its metabolism to compensate for this increased workload. Obviously (I hope), this hinges on you eating enough of the right foods. By making small increases in workload periodically, like every month or two, you end up with massive capacity for work, and that's what elite athletes need.

Of course the other way is to just jump in and get pummeled for 6 months and then slowly start getting strong again. It appears that either way works.

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Animalonfire

So would a GB user benefit from 6months or so of this intensity of training? Obviously elbows would be taken into consideration when programming, but would someone reach a significantly higher level by dropping all other endeavours and forcing themselves to work maximal effort daily?

If it will really make me better, I'm in. However Coach Sommer is also a very successful coach, and advocates SSC's and the option of resting when you don't feel 100%. I can imagine that someone who says waiting until you feel as well as you can will take forever probably hasn't been keeping up with their prehab, and as mentioned in BtGB, once you're injured you're out of training for a long time.

One last question, is this sort of regime safe(worth the risk of injury) for non adult individuals?

Just to clarify: I'm not trying to challenge anyone, just trying to learn.

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Joshua Naterman

It won't be good for straight arm work like planche I don't think, but keep in mind that Broz's program is for a very small number of exercises, and all of them depend heavily on large muscle groups in the lower body.

Read the interview http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121212081&page=3.

Broz claims that smaller muscles need more time to recover from heavy work, which is why he wouldn't recommend stuff like bench press more than three times a week. The bulk of his lifters' is in the legs.

One thing that remains constant is that you can't just try to mimic his lifters. You start off with 3 days a week and slowly move up to more. Work capacity builds gradually, but for a long time. Read and watch the thread and the interview to learn more.

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michael

ido, when you say you train 2-3 times a day or train for like 10 hours is alot of the work stretching,mobility,prehab etc or hard training ? how did you work up to that level of volume?

does anyone have any thoughts how to work up to that level?

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Guest Ido Portal

Of course this includes all types of physical work, for me: strength, equilibre, floreio flow work, mobility and stretching, tumbling and acrobatics, etc...

How do you build up? start somewhere... add more as you are able to handle it... add more... able to recover? add more... etc..

No rocket science.

I use a lot of science in my approach to training, diet, supplementation, but I never forget the most important factor - hard work.

Down the road, it is the most important factor: how much work do you put in.

When you watch those ring specialists in the olympics or those Olifters and you dream of a 250kg back squat or a perfect maltese cross held for 5sec, realize this: it cannot be achieved with a 3 days a week training...

Ido.

BTW I make sure to use special means of recovery in periods of volume ramp up. Instead of protein shake I will use straight BCAA in large quantities, epsom salt baths, extra EFA's, adpatogen tinctures, etc... Then when I can handle the new volume, I taper those off.

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michael

thanks for the reply, the advice is appreciated

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Coach Sommer

Increasing work capacity is important, very important - up to a point. That point however is not always clear.

There have been Olympic Champions who thrived on training three times a day (Bilozertchev '88). There have also been Olympic Champions who were only able to perform effectively on a single workout a day (Gushiken '84). Nastia Liukin ('08 Olympic Champion) trained 40+ hours per week, while her teammate Shawn Johnson ('07 World Champion) trained only 20-25.

If work capacity alone was the preeminent ingredient for success, than success should always go to the athlete who had worked the hardest and the longest. This is however not always the case. In fact, often times it is not; as success is rarely that black and white. In addition to working hard and struggling to maximize your potential, you must also work smart and within the boundaries of your own talents and recovery abilities. Failure to be cognizant of your bodies' own natural limitations and proclivities will usually result in sub-optimal performance, if not outright injury.

Years ago at a US Jr National Team training camp, I asked Stacey Maloney (World and Olympic Champion Paul Hamm's coach) what he felt he had done wrong in Paul's and his twin brother Morgan's preparation over the many long years of their development. Without hesitation, Stacey stated that he wished he had drastically reduced the daily work load he required of them on pommel horse; focusing more on quality rather than quantity. He suspected that this flawed approach on his part may have led to a long-term chronic elbow problem for Morgan.

Interestingly it was this same of type of over-use injury that caused many time World and Olympic Parallel Bar and Vault Champion Li Xiaopeng to be unable to swing pommel horse at all later in his career, thus effectively removing him from the all around. Yet others of Xiaopeng's Chinese teammates blossomed under the very same workload that brought an end to his own all-around career.

Ultimately, it is important to understand that after achieving a basic minimum of necessary training hours within a particular sport, there will always be a tremendous variation in the degree of hard work which individuals can pursue and still profit from productively.

The key then to success at the elite level is to struggle to find, and then successfully ride, that razor's edge difference between just right and too much.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Guest Ido Portal

I completely agree with you coach.

But most people never reach that point and will forever try to squeeze maximum potential out of their 'weak engine' - ultimately this can also be very dangerous. (Pushing the envelope on poor work capacity instead of increasing it)

The results that John Broz is producing in his gym are not comprised of singular case subjects. Everybody is strong, and they have reached that very fast. (most under a year) Also, this is only one example of someone who understands that work capacity is a very important ingredient. Other examples can be found in the world of circus (especially in china and the ex eastern block) and performers like the Alexis Brothers.

Some people succeed without a huge work capacity (Shawn Johnson is a great example) but most will benefit from increasing it, in a safe, progressive manner.

Where people fail usually is with the patience of either increasing work capacity slowly or with going out of what Coach Broz calls: 'The Dark Times'.

Ido.

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Joshua Naterman

Every time I say "The Dark Times" in my head it sounds cooler than the last.

Thanks for the posts, Ido! Especially about your supplement changes for accommodating new increases in volume. Does that happen fairly frequently or just a few times a year?

It's definitely important to pay attention to individual ability, and again gymnastics work is so much harder on the joints that I think increases in skill work capacity have to be regulated pretty carefully. Everyone's different and it's easy to start up joint pain that takes a long time to get rid of when you aren't cautious!

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Guest Ido Portal

Ramping up into gymnastics style strength work is much more complex than something like heavy squatting daily.

I would first increase weak link and joint preparation work and only further build upon that. Recognizing the limiting

factors is essential, and where most people fall short.

For example, I have found that it would do a world of good for someone who uses gymnastics style s&c to work up to a half bodyweight cuban press done for 5 reps in a 4020 rythem. For the heavier people that will prove like a long term goal, but I argue it is especially important for them as a shoulder prehab security policy if they want to dive into advanced elements as well as increasing shoulder flexibility. (Another factor that will be limited due to some weak links)

Gymnast's overpowering internal rotators are a cause of many platues in strength and injuries, but that is for another thread.

I have other weak link prerequisites I have formulated in a 'structural balance' kind of approach that pertains to advanced gymnastics and bodyweight strength and conditioning work.

Ido.

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michael

most people only use cuban presses as a light weight preventative excersise,but then again everyone has a different view on how they shoud be done i guess

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Joshua Naterman

That is so funny! Ido, you're probably aware of Poliquin's external rotator exercise, where he recommends that you be able to do 8 reps of 40x0 with 9% of your bench max... it's very, very similar to the cuban press. Same muscles, essentially. I made it my long-term goal a week ago to be able to do at least 50 lbs for 8 reps within the next 24 months. I am currently at ... sigh... 25. Well under what I can bench, percentage-wise. So I know it's a limiting factor.

I'm glad you echo what i was thinking about the importance of strengthening my external rotators (and lower/mid traps, the lower are truly terrible... I have a very hard time activating my right side... any tips on that?), it makes me feel a lot more confident about my judgement there. I'll test myself on the Cuban press once I get to the 35's for 8 reps. After only a week it is already helping immensely!

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Guest Ido Portal

Of course, the structural balance factor comes directly from Charles Poliquin.

I am not inventing the wheel here, as I always point out - 'If I have seen further, its by standing on the shoulders of giants'.

Ido.

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Blairbob

Hmm, I've been a proponent of the cuban presses for a few years now after using them but I've yet to ever think about going heavier with them. Hmm, thanks Ido.

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Guest Ido Portal

No problem, guys.

A man who is able to Cuban Press half his BW for reps is probobly a very upper body strong man. This will translate into a lot of movement patterns, since it is such a big weak link, in all people.

Ido.

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Guest

Can you do it? Hm, my bodyweight is around 70 kg... yes, doing Cuban presses with 35 kg DBs will be extremely challenging!! (I assume it's with 50% BW per hand...)

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Guest Ido Portal

No, its with both arms.

For this kind of question in the army, you get a special treatment...

Ido.

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Guest
No, its with both arms.

For this kind of question in the army, you get a special treatment...

Ido.

OOoops... :D I guess I'm so used to everybody on the forum being stronger than me that I just assume that every exercise must be insanely hard.

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Razz

Just gotta love this forum and the information people provide! :D

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Nic Scheelings

I had never done a cuban press before and I gave it a try today its pretty dam hard. I'm definitely going to try to get to that half bodyweight as I need more shoulder stability tho at the moment i'm only bout halfway there. Thanks for that tip

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Richard Duelley

I just looked up what a cuban press (Im a newb when it comes to weight lifting terminology) is and I do that with bands just about every day. I am going to have to start hitting the weight room and try these with a barbell. Half body weight you say . . . that would be rough!

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Joshua Naterman

Hell yea! Giants have the best shoulders. :lol:

The access to information we have these days is really remarkable. Fantastic, really! Who could have imagined the greatest ideas of the modern and ancient world being at the fingertips of every person on the planet even 30 years ago, besides sci-fi authors and the researchers who created the internet?

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Mark Weaver

I've seen videos on Youtube of the Cuban Press. There are different forms people are using. Ido or slizzardman, can you point me to a video showing the correct form?

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