Started by Crimsoncross, April 11, 2010 · 19 Replies · 7,612 Views
So what would be the "recommended" maximum rest time between sets or exercises? How much is bad and how much is good?
As they told me here, how much time you rest between sets/exercises doesn't affect hypertrophy/strength or whatever it may be. If that's so then it would never make sense to take less time to make your sets more "intense", given that you'll gain the same whether you train intensely or not and whether you take more time or not.
it depends on your goals. as a general rule: limited rest for hypertrophy, longer rest for maximal strength gains.
ts00nami said:it depends on your goals. as a general rule: limited rest for hypertrophy, longer rest for maximal strength gains.
Slizzardman said it doesn't affect whether you gain more hypertrophy or not if you rest longer or less. I guess he's wrong?
Crimsoncross said:ts00nami said:it depends on your goals. as a general rule: limited rest for hypertrophy, longer rest for maximal strength gains.Slizzardman said it doesn't affect whether you gain more hypertrophy or not if you rest longer or less. I guess he's wrong?
It depends on the intensity of the exercises in question, and total volume as well.
For strength, from 3 to 7 min wont hurt.
For endurance, as little as 30 sec.
For 60 sec progression, the faster you are, the better (from 3 to 30 sec depending on the skill or your level)
Crimsoncross said:So what would be the "recommended" maximum rest time between sets or exercises? How much is bad and how much is good?As they told me here, how much time you rest between sets/exercises doesn't affect hypertrophy/strength or whatever it may be. If that's so then it would never make sense to take less time to make your sets more "intense", given that you'll gain the same whether you train intensely or not and whether you take more time or not.
Come on man. Rest periods are very basic stuff.
Also, you must of misunderstood what someone said, because no one would of said the above.
trianglechoke7 said:Come on man. Rest periods are very basic stuff.Also, you must of misunderstood what someone said, because no one would of said the above.
Well I don't have the book, unlike almost everyone else here. I'm going to show you the exact quote in a little while.
trianglechoke7 said:Come on man. Rest periods are very basic stuff.Also, you must of misunderstood what someone said, because no one would of said the above.
I found the quote. Just so we're clear, what I said was that slizzardman told me that how much time you take doesn't affect whether you will be training for strength or hypertrophy or a combination or whichever it is. You said it does. Here it is:
slizzardman said:Your rest periods do not determine what effect you will get. The emphasis of your work sets will determine how long your rest periods have to be. Doing pulls during the rest between pushes is good. Push, 2 min, pull, 2 min, repeat 4x is a good way to pair exercises for strength.If you're going for mixed strength and hypertrophy(kind of a misnomer, since strength development is really a different type of hypertrophy) then you're going to want to be in the 30-50s work set range. That means 6-12 reps, depending on your pace. at 2120, that's 5 seconds per rep. That means you'd want 6-10 reps. You'd start with something you could do 6 times at that pace and you'd stay there until you can do 4-5 sets of 10 reps. Then you're ready to move on to the next progression. You're going to be looking at 90s-3minutes of rest. Probably closer to 3 minutes at first. If you need more, take more. Taking MORE rest will NOT hurt you when it comes to strength and size. I know there are some people here who will say, and not incorrectly, that there is more to this statement, but I'm keeping it simple. You want to go into consolidation training, go for it. I don't want to deal with it right now. This is the basic principle for the hypertrophy + strength.
That's from the "Greasing the Groove" thread. I don't mean to get into a fight with this, just seeking to learn.
Felipe said:For strength, from 3 to 7 min wont hurt.For endurance, as little as 30 sec.
For 60 sec progression, the faster you are, the better (from 3 to 30 sec depending on the skill or your level)
This.
My point was that if you are doing sets of 30 reps, resting for 7 minutes will not magically make you get stronger. By nature, you are doing endurance work. That's just how it is. Therefore you use the rest period that suits that work. The nature of the work determines what rest periods you should use.
If you try and do 5x3 of PPP and use 45s rests you are not magically going to get better endurance. You are working so hard, and your sets are so short that you never enter glycolysis or aerobic respiration, and that means that you are not even beginning to tax the energy systems that fuel endurance efforts. Because you are not using these energy systems, you are not going to get a training effect in them. What is happening here is that you are not getting the most out of your strength sets. Why? BECAUSE YOU AREN'T RESTING LONG ENOUGH FOR THE ATP and CP TO REGENERATE!!! When you are relying on a particular energy system for fuel, you have to rest long enough for that system to replenish itself. Otherwise you aren't going to be able to do as much work, which means you're not going to get as strong of a training effect. The training effect is the adaptation you're trying to get from your workout. Strength, speed, endurance, etc. You figure out what energy systems you are relying on, and you rest long enough for the slowest one to regenerate. For strength sets, you're only relying on ATP/CP so you should be working with 3-5+ min rests. Strength-hypertrophy mix is still going to get 3-5 minutes, because even though you are delving into glycolysis a little bit, you're mainly relying on ATP/CP, which takes longer to regenerate. If you're doing pure hypertrophy, which is in the 40-50 seconds range, you're not going to need to rest quite as long because you aren't completely relying the ATP/CP system. You aren't functioning at maximum output, so the rate of energy production from sugar can sustain the efforts until waste products build up to the point where they can't be processed fast enough to keep the energy flowing. In this case, you're letting your body flush waste products. That's the main purpose of the rest, not replenishing ATP. The resistance used for this type of set is lower than strength, and because of that you don't need your ATP/CP system to be completely restored. Sugar can handle it. It takes a fairly long time to deplete muscle sugar compared to ATP/CP, longer than a size oriented workout will take for each muscle group if done properly.
Is what I said clearer now? The goal you are shooting for is what will determine your rest times. Your rest times DO NOT CAUSE THE TRAINING EFFECT! They will ONLY affect the quality of your work and the efficiency of your training advancement.
It is important to understand what is the cause and what is the effect. The rest period is the effect, which is caused by the training intensity.
There 1000's of books and internet websites where you can learn basic sport science. You should do that as opposed to learning basic things on an internet message board.
braindx said:Crimsoncross said:ts00nami said:it depends on your goals. as a general rule: limited rest for hypertrophy, longer rest for maximal strength gains.Slizzardman said it doesn't affect whether you gain more hypertrophy or not if you rest longer or less. I guess he's wrong?
It depends on the intensity of the exercises in question, and total volume as well.
I'm assuming that he properly derived intensity and volume by first establishing a goal and rep range, although I may assume too much. So what Felipe said is a better guideline.
ts00nami said:it depends on your goals. as a general rule: limited rest for hypertrophy, longer rest for maximal strength gains.Slizzardman said it doesn't affect whether you gain more hypertrophy or not if you rest longer or less. I guess he's wrong?
It depends on the intensity of the exercises in question, and total volume as well.
I'm assuming that he properly derived intensity and volume by first establishing a goal and rep range, although I may assume too much. So what Felipe said is a better guideline.
Yes and no. His times are good for the pure strength sets, but as for endurance it depends on what the training modality is. Besides, the point Crimson needs to understand is that your rest times are determined by set intensity. Volume and frequency for a given intensity have an inverse relationship, but that has nothing to do with rest times. Set intensity determines what energy system(s) is/are being relied upon and trained, and the energy systems being trained will determine the rest needed. Until he understands that, this other stuff isn't going to make sense and he won't understand why certain rest times are good for each type of training.
I think what I wanted to ask was how much time should I take between exercises.
Right now I'm doing max # of perfect form chinups (10 atm) and then right after (actually 10-20 seconds later because of setting up, etc.) max # of perfect form HeSPU's (5 atm). That's 1 set. Then I take 3-5 minutes rest between sets (5 sets), as needed.
This is just 1 workout though, I'm just using it as an example.
You'll probably find that by resting 45-60s after the chins, and 2-4 minutes after the HeSPU that you get slightly better results. But overall, you're doing well. You're going to be forced to rest longer since you're doing maximal work on the HeSPU, 3-5 minutes between sets due to the pure strength nature of the set. If you were working submaximally like I am with my 5 reps, you'd be able to work with 60-90s rest times. I do take a 3 minute rest after my 2nd or 3rd set, then it's back to 60s. Eventually I won't need that long rest at all. That's because I am not working at a maximal level. I am building the strength in lower threshold fibers, which use energy systems that require less rest time.
slizzardman said:You'll probably find that by resting 45-60s after the chins, and 2-4 minutes after the HeSPU that you get slightly better results. But overall, you're doing well. You're going to be forced to rest longer since you're doing maximal work on the HeSPU, 3-5 minutes between sets due to the pure strength nature of the set. If you were working submaximally like I am with my 5 reps, you'd be able to work with 60-90s rest times. I do take a 3 minute rest after my 2nd or 3rd set, then it's back to 60s. Eventually I won't need that long rest at all. That's because I am not working at a maximal level. I am building the strength in lower threshold fibers, which use energy systems that require less rest time.
Yeah, I just decided to do them like that from now on because doing them like I was before just took too much time. X pull exercise, then 2-3 minutes, and then x push exercise, that's just too much time and it is unnecessary anyways.
P.S. where are you in your planche work? I hate the frog stand, hate it. I wish I could just start with the tuck PL. I tried going with the "advanced" fs instead but I can't do it and I hate it as well, I just don't know why the **** I can't do it.
You can't do it because your body isn't ready. I used to hate the idea of frogstand and advanced frog, but now I love it. Why the change? Because now I realize just how important advanced frog is, so build up to it. Take your time. Trust me, if you can't do advanced frog you are not going to be able to get tuck planche, much less anything else. I didn't USE the advanced frog my first time around, but I could do it so I skipped it. That was a mistake. My elbows feel better now than they have in years. YEARS dude! It is seriously that awesome.
Planche is like everything else in life. If you don't put the time, effort, and consistency into it you will never achieve anything. Unlike the rest of life, you can't buy a one dollar ticket that changes your body into Superman, nor can you steal Super Strength from your local pawn shop. You either get down to business and spend the time, even if it takes you six months or a year to be able to do a 45s advanced frogstand. From there you will spend even more time with tuck and advanced tuck, and after that you will have a straddle planche and people will stare at you with awe when you perform it. If you stick with it, you'll be doing full planche and eventually push ups. If you can't handle that right now, then you are going to need to examine your perspective on life and why it is that you can not bring yourself to do what every successful person does. If you can't figure it out on your own, talk to a professional and have them help. When you do eventually figure it out, implement changes. That's not an insult, by the way, that's seriously a perfect guideline for you to achieve success not just in planche training but also in life's many other pursuits.
slizzardman said:You can't do it because your body isn't ready. I used to hate the idea of frogstand and advanced frog, but now I love it. Why the change? Because now I realize just how important advanced frog is, so build up to it. Take your time. Trust me, if you can't do advanced frog you are not going to be able to get tuck planche, much less anything else. I didn't USE the advanced frog my first time around, but I could do it so I skipped it. That was a mistake. My elbows feel better now than they have in years. YEARS dude! It is seriously that awesome.Planche is like everything else in life. If you don't put the time, effort, and consistency into it you will never achieve anything. Unlike the rest of life, you can't buy a one dollar ticket that changes your body into Superman, nor can you steal Super Strength from your local pawn shop. You either get down to business and spend the time, even if it takes you six months or a year to be able to do a 45s advanced frogstand. From there you will spend even more time with tuck and advanced tuck, and after that you will have a straddle planche and people will stare at you with awe when you perform it. If you stick with it, you'll be doing full planche and eventually push ups. If you can't handle that right now, then you are going to need to examine your perspective on life and why it is that you can not bring yourself to do what every successful person does. If you can't figure it out on your own, talk to a professional and have them help. When you do eventually figure it out, implement changes. That's not an insult, by the way, that's seriously a perfect guideline for you to achieve success not just in planche training but also in life's many other pursuits.
I hear you. It's just been a problem of organization, as I mentioned in another thread. I've been doing many other things but I never seem to train the PL because I remember I don't like the frog stand and so I don't do it heh. I seem to "like" all the others like the FL and the HS and some others, because I can do the basic ones well and it feels good, but I just don't like the legs-against-the-arms aspect of the fs, that's what I really don't like. In all the other ones some body part isn't hanging off of you or being pressed against you like the FS (correct me if there is one, haven't checked).
That's why I wanted to start with the advanced one, because it seems more comfortable but I can't do it that well.
How much time would I have to be able to hold the FS before I can start with the tuck or the advanced one?
I know you'll hate this, and I'm sorry, but you really should work up to a 45-60s frogstand before trying the advanced frog. In my opinion, once you have that you are best served bykeeping your legs exactly where they are in thefrogstand and starting to straighten your arms for 20s sets. Get as straight as you can while doing relatively easy 20s sets, and every few weeks, not more than twice a month but guided by ease of position and not calendar dates, straighten the elbows a bit more. Before you know it you'll be doing advanced frog for an easy 4-5 sets of 20s with totally straight elbows and absolutely no pain whatsoever. It will be an exciting time when that happens, because it means you will probably not run into further injury with planche unless you are trying to sprint ahead. Once you've done straight arm advanced frog you'll start taking the weight of your knees off of your arms and pulling your knees closer together. You'll eventually end up in an easy 15-20s tuck planche. Don't go for a max hold. Just go for the 10-20s. As long as you're in that range for easy sets that you can repeat after 60-90s rest you are on track! Once you've worked up to easy 20s sets in tuck start flattening your back. Eventually you'll be in the advanced tuck! Now, once you've gotten up to the 4-5 sets of 20s there, you'll start extending your legs backwards. You will find that you'll be fully capable of at least a few seconds in straddle, but stay with the gradual process. Extend your legs as far back as you can while maintaining the 10-20s sets. Stay there until you get to 4-5 sets of 20s and extend again. You'll always make progress and you will never get hurt. It's a smart way to train and you will be rewarded with progress on a regular schedule.
Awesome post on REST / RESTING TIMES Slizzardman. Helps a lot.
slizzardman said:My point was that if you are doing sets of 30 reps, resting for 7 minutes will not magically make you get stronger. By nature, you are doing endurance work. That's just how it is. Therefore you use the rest period that suits that work. The nature of the work determines what rest periods you should use.If you try and do 5x3 of PPP and use 45s rests you are not magically going to get better endurance. You are working so hard, and your sets are so short that you never enter glycolysis or aerobic respiration, and that means that you are not even beginning to tax the energy systems that fuel endurance efforts. Because you are not using these energy systems, you are not going to get a training effect in them. What is happening here is that you are not getting the most out of your strength sets. Why? BECAUSE YOU AREN'T RESTING LONG ENOUGH FOR THE ATP and CP TO REGENERATE!!! When you are relying on a particular energy system for fuel, you have to rest long enough for that system to replenish itself. Otherwise you aren't going to be able to do as much work, which means you're not going to get as strong of a training effect. The training effect is the adaptation you're trying to get from your workout. Strength, speed, endurance, etc. You figure out what energy systems you are relying on, and you rest long enough for the slowest one to regenerate. For strength sets, you're only relying on ATP/CP so you should be working with 3-5+ min rests. Strength-hypertrophy mix is still going to get 3-5 minutes, because even though you are delving into glycolysis a little bit, you're mainly relying on ATP/CP, which takes longer to regenerate. If you're doing pure hypertrophy, which is in the 40-50 seconds range, you're not going to need to rest quite as long because you aren't completely relying the ATP/CP system. You aren't functioning at maximum output, so the rate of energy production from sugar can sustain the efforts until waste products build up to the point where they can't be processed fast enough to keep the energy flowing. In this case, you're letting your body flush waste products. That's the main purpose of the rest, not replenishing ATP. The resistance used for this type of set is lower than strength, and because of that you don't need your ATP/CP system to be completely restored. Sugar can handle it. It takes a fairly long time to deplete muscle sugar compared to ATP/CP, longer than a size oriented workout will take for each muscle group if done properly.
Is what I said clearer now? The goal you are shooting for is what will determine your rest times. Your rest times DO NOT CAUSE THE TRAINING EFFECT! They will ONLY affect the quality of your work and the efficiency of your training advancement.
It is important to understand what is the cause and what is the effect. The rest period is the effect, which is caused by the training intensity.