Martin Berkhan: Bodyweight training is worse for hypertrophy

slizzardman said:

Yea, I mean that's the kind of protocol that allows you to do things that just can't be done without the supplements. Right now I am going in the opposite direction and figuring out how far you can go without them, but at some point if you really want to be world champ or a sprinting world record holder or something you are probably going to have to go that route.

Yeah.. Actually the above isn't per day. It's per workout! So put a guy on 3x day workouts and damn that's a lot of BCAAs :shock:

cccp22 said:

slizzardman said:

You have to eat big, like 300-500 calories above maintenance. That is going to be the single most important part of getting bigger... if you eat for the same weight you're currently at you are going to have a hard time getting bigger.

************* Agreed. There is a theory that says that meso-endo's can lose fat and gain muscle quite awhile before having to concentrate on one or the other. What do you think?

Brandon Green

There's one thing I don't get about calories: a snicker's bar has 280 calories, any chocolate for that matter. Soda also has a lot of calories. I don't know much about these things but I'm guessing sugar is the cause of all of this, and I'm also guessing getting the extra calories from sources such as candy and soda won't do the trick will it? So what's the deal here?

Chocolate, soda, alcohol and pretty much anything that tastes good has a lot of empty calories in it. What that means is that you are eating a bunch of easy-to-breakdown calories that have nearly no nutritional value which are just going to get stored as fat unless they're ALL used immediately, which is practically impossible.

For me, I need to eat about 450-500 calories per meal 6 times a day to maintain my mass. Those calories need to come from proteins, carbohydrates and fat in the meal itself. The difference between the carbs you eat at meals and a chocolate bar is that "good" carbs are complex, whereas chocolate bars are simple. Complex carbs take longer to be broken down by the body, so the energy is released slowly and can be used as it is needed. Simple carbs are broken down quickly and, if not used immediately, are stored as fat for future use. Obviously, we would prefer to eat complex carbs such as whole wheat breads, pastas or brown rice.

rmandawg1 said:

Chocolate, soda, alcohol and pretty much anything that tastes good has a lot of empty calories in it. What that means is that you are eating a bunch of easy-to-breakdown calories that have nearly no nutritional value which are just going to get stored as fat unless they're ALL used immediately, which is practically impossible.

For me, I need to eat about 450-500 calories per meal 6 times a day to maintain my mass. Those calories need to come from proteins, carbohydrates and fat in the meal itself. The difference between the carbs you eat at meals and a chocolate bar is that "good" carbs are complex, whereas chocolate bars are simple. Complex carbs take longer to be broken down by the body, so the energy is released slowly and can be used as it is needed. Simple carbs are broken down quickly and, if not used immediately, are stored as fat for future use. Obviously, we would prefer to eat complex carbs such as whole wheat breads, pastas or brown rice.

I see, thanks for the info, I thought it would be something like that!

rmandawg1 said:

How much do you weigh? How tall are you?

I'm 6'3" and about 200 lbs. and I need about 4500 calories a day or ill drop weight very quickly. My friend who's the same height but 220 eats around 3000 a day of pizza and lucky charms and has a 8 pack. What you need and how much is very dependent on metabolism and genetics. You'll need to play around with amount of meals per day and amount and quality of calories, you can't really just mimic somebody's diet and expect the same results.

Warrior, you can use this link to calculate your required caloric intake per day.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/caloriecalculator.htm

It's pretty damn good for a free calculator. If you set the calorie deficit to 20%, it will show you how many calories to eat if you're trying to build muscle and reduce your bodyfat at the same time. It's been working well for me so far, and it's accurate to 30%. The accuracy may seem low, but if you consider the factors that this counter can't account for, I think it's done a pretty good job.

I weigh 180 lbs at 5' 8" and between 10% and 12% bodyfat.

As far as sugars and artificial sweeteners go, the big difference between them and starches is that sugars and artificial sweeteners make your body less sensitive to insulin when exposed to them all the time. What that means in plain english is that your body is going to have to produce more insulin in order to move food into storage. This is bad because the more insulin you have to make the more things tend to be stored in fat and not in lean tissue. That is one of the major reasons to stay away from sweets, whether natural or artificial. Artificial sweeteners are just as bad as regular sugar when it comes to messing with the body's sensitivity to insulin.

Once in a while isn't terrible, but having them every day will be much more likely to interfere with your ability to get lean and gain muscle.

Lavastine said:

I'm 6'3" and about 200 lbs. and I need about 4500 calories a day or ill drop weight very quickly. My friend who's the same height but 220 eats around 3000 a day of pizza and lucky charms and has a 8 pack. What you need and how much is very dependent on metabolism and genetics. You'll need to play around with amount of meals per day and amount and quality of calories, you can't really just mimic somebody's diet and expect the same results.

************ I have to agree. I have to eat below 2000 a day to stay same bodyfat. Take into account that i am 50 years old.

I could starve and survive and keep most of my mass. bad genetics unless you were meant to survive.

brandon green

I seem to stay the same regardless of what I do. My body tends to change very, very slowly. It's really weird, I must say. It took me forever, and by forever I mean at least four months, of eating an average of at least 1000 calories below maintenance to drop from 215-220 to 202-203. Even then at least half of the loss was body fat, though I definitely lost some muscle too.

slizzardman said:

As far as sugars and artificial sweeteners go, the big difference between them and starches is that sugars and artificial sweeteners make your body less sensitive to insulin when exposed to them all the time. What that means in plain english is that your body is going to have to produce more insulin in order to move food into storage. This is bad because the more insulin you have to make the more things tend to be stored in fat and not in lean tissue. That is one of the major reasons to stay away from sweets, whether natural or artificial. Artificial sweeteners are just as bad as regular sugar when it comes to messing with the body's sensitivity to insulin.

Once in a while isn't terrible, but having them every day will be much more likely to interfere with your ability to get lean and gain muscle.

so, i can eat white rice all day?

slizzardman said:

I seem to stay the same regardless of what I do. My body tends to change very, very slowly. It's really weird, I must say. It took me forever, and by forever I mean at least four months, of eating an average of at least 1000 calories below maintenance to drop from 215-220 to 202-203. Even then at least half of the loss was body fat, though I definitely lost some muscle too.

This seems to be a common thing amongst people with a high training age/strong. Their bodies lose muscle mass pretty slowly unless they do something drastic (like drop strength training and pick up bike shorts). A powerlifting buddy of mine noticed how, over the years, he needed less and less calories to keep his weight up as he got stronger.

That could explain things. I really don't understand it, I have to say. I should be a twig the way I have been eating. My body won't go above 210 though lol! I am just not eating enough to get bigger. Strength, however, keeps going up.

slizzardman said:

That could explain things. I really don't understand it, I have to say. I should be a twig the way I have been eating. My body won't go above 210 though lol! I am just not eating enough to get bigger. Strength, however, keeps going up.

Maybe check your HCL levels too

That's true, I have been pretty high stress for the past few months. Of course, I'm seriously probably not getting over 2200 calories a day. That's not even resting maintenance for me. I do not understand how I stay where I am sometimes, but I have noticed that it is much easier when I eat lots of greens. The HCL could be an issue too, I do need to check on that again.

this guy does "calisthenics" has a lot of videos on youtube.

best abs i have ever seen

and he claims all bodyweight exercises.

Id rather have a physique aspiring to that than to a "bodybuilder" who struggles to wipe his on be-hind.

Everyone has different goals. Im hoping a combination of gymnastics ring work (eventually) and some weights will help reach my goals!

That's Hitman. He had extremely low bodyfat in that video. He's not as lean right now, i guess he's relaxing on his diet. He eats very carefully to look like that.

If you want a bulging eight pack you need to do a lot of abdominal flexion.

nikosg said:

this guy does "calisthenics" has a lot of videos on youtube.

best abs i have ever seen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCWMVkM ... re=related

and he claims all bodyweight exercises.

Id rather have a physique aspiring to that than to a "bodybuilder" who struggles to wipe his on be-hind.

Everyone has different goals. Im hoping a combination of gymnastics ring work (eventually) and some weights will help reach my goals!

Best abs ever? Think again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hItiLNcryqQ 8)

I prefer look and perform like Mr. Tomita here... haha

But i understand that your goals are diferent, i just wanted compare... :wink:

Look at Tomita's serratus... O_o Huge.

slizzardman said:

That's true, I have been pretty high stress for the past few months. Of course, I'm seriously probably not getting over 2200 calories a day. That's not even resting maintenance for me. I do not understand how I stay where I am sometimes, but I have noticed that it is much easier when I eat lots of greens. The HCL could be an issue too, I do need to check on that again.

How are you gaining muscle eating so little?

I think maybe he should use fat as energy. Lets see what he will respond...

Guys I have no idea. I am not even pretending to know this one. The closest thing I can think of is that muscular tissue is actually fairly dormant when not in use, so all that extra stuff we put on doesn't ACTUALLY increase basal metabolism by as much as we think it does. Very similar to extra fat mass. Now obviously if you're doing lots of work you have to support that energy usage, and THAT... I don't think I'm quite doing. I AM slowly losing bodyfat, though some truly horrific episodes with half-gallons of ice cream, molasses, hot fudge and dark chocolate put a temporary halt to that hahaha!

So I do think there may be something to that.

Something else to consider, and the numbers on this don't add up on the surface: Remember how we have mentioned the study where subjects gained weight on a 2000 calorie diet that was 80% carbs and maintained or LOST weight on a diet that was 2500 calories and 80% fat? Well, my diet right now is veggies, rice, rice, rice, and some chicken when I have it cooked. High carb. It may simply be that the more carbs you eat the less total energy you need to maintain mass, I don't know. These are questions that are like out there in the twilight zone and I don't have a space suit.

slizzardman said:

I AM slowly losing bodyfat, though some truly horrific episodes with half-gallons of ice cream, molasses, hot fudge and dark chocolate put a temporary halt to that hahaha!

:shock:

slizzardman said:

Guys I have no idea. I am not even pretending to know this one. The closest thing I can think of is that muscular tissue is actually fairly dormant when not in use, so all that extra stuff we put on doesn't ACTUALLY increase basal metabolism by as much as we think it does. Very similar to extra fat mass. Now obviously if you're doing lots of work you have to support that energy usage, and THAT... I don't think I'm quite doing. I AM slowly losing bodyfat, though some truly horrific episodes with half-gallons of ice cream, molasses, hot fudge and dark chocolate put a temporary halt to that hahaha!

So I do think there may be something to that.

Something else to consider, and the numbers on this don't add up on the surface: Remember how we have mentioned the study where subjects gained weight on a 2000 calorie diet that was 80% carbs and maintained or LOST weight on a diet that was 2500 calories and 80% fat? Well, my diet right now is veggies, rice, rice, rice, and some chicken when I have it cooked. High carb. It may simply be that the more carbs you eat the less total energy you need to maintain mass, I don't know. These are questions that are like out there in the twilight zone and I don't have a space suit.

Do you have the reference to that study?

Slizz, what you trying to do? Eliminate meat and see what happen?

I'm trying not to starve!!! Meat is expensive. So are flights and hotels, but I'm going to the seminar so if I'm a little hungry right now whatever! But seriously, I am not intentionally cutting out the meat, I just... don't feel like I need it right now. Don't worry, it's weird to me too.