Stuart McGill and forward flexion?

Hello,

I've been hearing more about Stuart McGill lately and his recommendation to avoid forward flexion type exercises like situps because it will wreck your back. It sounds like some athletic programs have eliminated crunches and situps because of this advice and it seems like gymnastics involves a lot of what McGill tells us not to do. There was even a comment about that being why gymnasts have such bad backs.

I'm not sure what the details of McGill's research are that led him to this conlusion but he is considered to be an expert. On the other hand, it seems like a situp is the type of thing a person should be able to do without popping a disk.

Does anyone know more about this than I do and can set my mind at ease?

this has been mentioned before I would not be worried if I was you. (actively) flexing and arching your spine is perfectly natural. If you can do full hanging leg lifts and arch ups with a decent amount of hyper extension your back will be more awesome than most people you know. If you can also hold full front and back levers you will have better straight body strength and stability than most people you know.

There was even a comment about that being why gymnasts have such bad backs

over training, improper physical preparation, stuffing up a skill etc.

Compared to the instances of problem in the unactive population as well as competitive athletes in other fields, I would like to see some concrete evidence that suggests such a thing.

more here: http://forum.idoportal.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59

I am familiar with his work and I have one of his books, which I have read. There are people who disagree with McGill's work on some things or disagree with his extreme caution.

With that said, I think there is definitely a case to be made for exclusion of crunches and sit-ups in many people. When you have a society in which people sit all day hunched over, the last thing they need is to go and do exercises which have them hunching over.

In regards to gymnastics, sometimes the forward flexion is just a progression to a straight backed exercise (e.g. front & back levers, and planches) but sometimes not (staddle l's, manna's ect.). Other sports as well have a lot of rounded back activity, like wrestling. Do wrestlers and gymnasts have more back problems than other sports. I don't know, I'd like to see data on it if there is some.

But I wouldn't automatically assume that there is. One of the criticisms of McGill's work is that while he does look at things in living subjects, he also draws conclusions from dead spines, and pig spines. A dead spine is interesting to look at, but doesn't work the same as a living spine which has contracting muscles. This is physiology vs. biomechanics. With pig spines, pig's are not upright walking animals like humans so of course they are not going to have the same back biomechanics.

Don't take these criticisms to mean that I think all of McGill's conclusions are bad or anything, on the contrary, there is MUCH to learn here.

Another criticism is that flexion exercises don't necessarily put the most forces on the spine. McGill's own work has recently shown this. In a recent study he looked at different strongman exercises and found that the atlas stone lift (an event where the spine is flexed) was in fact the safest of all.

Here's a good article that discusses this finding by McGill. It also talks about the ability of the body to adapt to what it does (so what's unsafe for one person may be safe for another) in the context of rounded back deadlifting. It's a great read and will give you many of the answers you seek, if you agree with it.

http://www.ampedtraining.com/strength/d ... adlifting/

Also, here is a podcast in which Nick Tumminello "defends" spinal flexion.

http://strengthcoachpodcast.typepad.com ... dcast.html

Finally, you may want to listen to this interview Nick Tumminello did with physical therapist Mark Comerford.

Part 1 of 3:

Hope that helps.

trianglechoke7 said:

With that said, I think there is definitely a case to be made for exclusion of crunches and sit-ups in many people.

also because I don't think they are actually very good exercises.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Weighted situps can get your abs strong, for example. Reverse crunches are a progression for dragon flags.

I don't know anything about McGill's work, but i can understand why he might come out as being against hip flexion. Though it really sounds like a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Since i was young i've always actually enjoyed to stretch my hamstrings, it has been a great way for me to relieve stress and recover from long days on a skateboard or snowboard. However i didn't know the dynamics of it, and managed to create a loose sacrum, which continues to give me problems from time to time.

Since then i have learned how to flex the hips and not disturb the illosacral joint, which adds an active core element to the stretch.

Similarly, not understanding the correct shape the spine needs to be in to do movements like 'crunches' will make them potentially very hard on the lumbar spine.

The lumbar vertebra need to have the correct bone rhythm. If starting a crunch like movement on an inhale with a neutral lumbar curve and trying to lift from the apex of the curve. (I.e. lifting from the bellybutton) the psoas will work to much against the abs and stress/compress the lumbar.

The belly needs to articulate, similar to a snakes movement, to create the proper rolling action in the spine so it naturally rounds backwards without compression. This type of movement works much more naturally with the exhale, so in general, its best to do ab contraction on an exhale.

A simple way to make this work from your back is to already set the stage by slightly elevating the tailbone on the edge of a pad. It gives the spine a little pre-rounding and more importantly a little space for the spine to round into. I like to do a form of crunch where you bring the knees to the chest and chin to the knees on an exhale, as this also promotes the active rounding of the spine. To turn up the heat on the exercise, try to straighten the legs (one or both) AFTER bringing them to the chin. Keep them as parallel to the floor as possible and your abs will most likely feel this. Your lumbar/sacral joint will thank you for doing this kind of work.

It sounds to me like Mr. McGill is assuming people just don't know how to move, and he doesn't want to teach them.

McGill is only speaking of spinal flexion not hip flexion. The worst, according to him, is spinal flexion with rotation.

trianglechoke7 said:

McGill is only speaking of spinal flexion not hip flexion. The worst, according to him, is spinal flexion with rotation.

Well he's right in that lots of people rupture disks lifting that way, esp. if you add a loaded twist healthiest is to have an extended spine.

If i was working for OSHA, yeah, straight back don't twist. Assume the worst and be safe! If i'm working on my own body, then intelligent use of intelligence usually helps.

In talking about these kind of injuries they normally happen when a person is either exceeding their limits or just not being present. If a person is moving within their strength/stamina capacity and with awareness even a twisting flexion can be perfectly healthy.

In my above post, its important to understand that we are still speaking primarily of spinal flexion. However using the floor the tail bone will have to roll up off the floor, what the legs are doing is secondary, and it totally possible to do with straight legs. In fact like this it could be considered a simpler variation of a front lever, similar to a tuck fl to straight leg, don't touch the tailbone to the floor and its all about core stability with the spine in 'hollow' flexed shape.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Maybe I'm one of those "flexion tolerant" people because situps and leg raises have never bothered me. I think I'll just try not to do anything too crazy and not worry about it.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease.

Like with everything I think evaluation is needed. People are different a close friend of mine deadlifts with a rounded back (like explained in the article) and is approaching 500 with no back injuries. Me on the other hand if I do any situps, vups, leglifts or just round my back for a long time, well the pain will persist for quite a while (I injured my lower back when I was young hyperextended it pretty badly)

Mr Brady said:

It sounds to me like Mr. McGill is assuming people just don't know how to move, and he doesn't want to teach them.

Hmmmm, I wouldn't make such assumptions until you pursue McGill's work first hand. Dr. McGill is a world-renowned spine researcher with decades of clinical and practical experience. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with all of McGill's conclusions, the fact of the matter is he has improved the back pain of many people, from regular joes to world-class athletes.

trianglechoke7 said:

Mr Brady said:

It sounds to me like Mr. McGill is assuming people just don't know how to move, and he doesn't want to teach them.

Hmmmm, I wouldn't make such assumptions until you pursue McGill's work first hand. Dr. McGill is a world-renowned spine researcher with decades of clinical and practical experience. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with all of McGill's conclusions, the fact of the matter is he has improved the back pain of many people, from regular joes to world-class athletes.

You are right, my comment came off the wrong way, and harsh. No disrespect meant, the neutral spine concept has helped many without a doubt. I teach it myself.

Its just, as Ido points out, not the end of the story, but the beginning, at least when we are talking about the calibre of folks who frequent this forum.

Ido said:

Cny, if you believe that the lower back should not be mobilized and stretched you are up for a very boring life, my friend. What Mcgill does not understand is that with the right protocol for lower back mobilization, stability, control, strength and flexibility are developed at the same time, though creating a supperior lower back, less prone to injury.

Give me a break with that 'straight back' mentality. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with a straight back?? God, take me now, then.

Ido.