Programming in Climbing with GST

Hello all, 

I have many of friends who are all climbers and are always asking me to go climbing with them. In the past ive had to turn down their requests due to injury but I feel very comfortable with where im at that I could begin dabbling with some low intensity climbing, in gym bouldering to be exact.

I know there are many people that routinely climb along with their GST, @Everett Carroll being one of them. 

I was curious how you guys go about adding in climbing without tapping to far into your recovery dedicated for your GST training. 

my current week looks like this

MON: F3( SLS, SL, MN) 

TUE: H1 + Crush grip & extensor work

Wed: Middle Split

Thur: F4 ( RC, HBP, SPl, FL) 

Fri: Middle Split

Sat or Sun: H1 + Crush grip +extensor work 

note1: I am close to being ready for thoracic bridge work, and will likely reintroduce it in the next upcoming 2-3 weeks and see how I fair. 

note2: Crush grip involves 3 sets of 3-10 reps of captain crush grippers usually pushing close to failure

note3: at the end of F3 and F4 I have incorporated static hanging from a fat bar to develop grip endurance along with some wrist rolls (extensor only). Usually push close to failure

note4:  I am not really looking to become a big climber, I see it as something that could be fun to do with my friends from time to time & a way to develop some grip strength but GST is definitely my main focus right now. 

note5: I am a beginner athlete on stage 8 of PE1 RC for my pulling. If this helps give an idea of how de-conditioned my upper back is 

My assumption would be to climb light on the weekend either sat or sunday but dont want to get in the way of recovering from my H1 and crush grip work. 

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated!

I come at this from the opposite end: climbing is my main activity, and GST is part of my strength program for it.  My climbing sessions take priority over everything.  That said, the only time I worry about the recovery conflicting is Fridays if I've got plans to try hard outdoors on Saturday.  To that end, I do no upper body focused work on Fridays.  You could probably reverse that and it would work well for you (i.e. don't schedule your upper body after climbing).

Really, you probably don't need to change your schedule at all, keep your H1 on climbing days as either a warm up or cool down.  Your crush grip, and your fat bar hangs don't correlate with anything your grip does in climbing (except some limited carryover to pinches) so aside from possibly overtaxing your general recovery (depending on your capacity), you're probably fine there.  I regularly deadlift heavy either right before or right after climbing sessions, and the only impact I've found either way is the general fatigue.

That's excellent advice from Nicholas. That's exactly how my approach was when I began GST, since climbing preceded it and was the priority. 

I break it down like this: whatever your main focus is, dedicate most of your training/exercise time towards that. Treat all other training as if it were another workout on your dashboard. Start by adding it in once per week, wait at least a month, check in with your recovery, and consider adding more if all is well. 

Over the years, I have successfully done this with both climbing and GST as my main focus and it really helps me find a nice weekly balance. 

 Enjoy the climbing Ryan!!! You're going to get hooked and be a beast almost immediately thanks to your GST base. Trust me, before I was even through F1 for any category (SLS excluded) I noticed a HUGE bump in my climbing performance. The two integrate insanely well. Enjoy! Just be sensitive to your finger tendons and you'll be all set. When in doubt, back off, just like with GST. 

Let us know how it goes for you! I'd be interested in hearing what grade you climb. 

@Everett Carroll @Nicholas Kuhl

Thank you both for your advise! I'll keep the schedule as is and start adding in about 30 minutes of bouldering on my Sat or Sunday H1 sessions. 

Will Keep you guys posted over the upcoming weeks/months!

Hi Fellas,

I just signed up for F1 today hoping to supplement my climbing because my buddy Dave Avram suggested it (I think he will be signing up today as well).  Psyched to see some fellow climbers here!!!! Any suggestions from any of you who have been at this a while?  

Cheers,

Marcus

Hi Marcus, 

Welcome aboard.

I have seen many climbers go through the GB program and make huge gains. GST is such a killer cross training for climbing.

Have any of the climbers cross training with GST programmed hang board work into their training? How about using different gripping devises to pull from instead of the standard rings or bar? Just curious 

For example( balls, cones, and nunchucks seen on this website)  : http://www.threeballclimbing.com/fitness/suspended-training-equipment.htm 

Welcome, @Marcus Trail ! (a bit late, I know). How is your GST/climbing training going? I have been doing both for some time and love hearing updates on how folks are improving. 

@Ryan Segervall , I keep the two separate for the most part. Something I've found to be quite successful is applying Coach Sommer's mastery templates and respect for connective tissue adaptation to a hang program for climbers. Far too many climbers lack respect for the intensity of hang boarding and campus boarding. I'm still exploring this so I won't release more specifics at this time.

My advice is to keep GST upper body work separate for now.

@Everett Carroll Thanks for getting back! 

I'll stick to just climbing right now as I feel thats enough conditioning for my hands given I've just started climbing. After a couple months of consistently climbing 1-2 times a week ill maybe consider adding in some hang board work. 

Keep me updated on your findings with incorporating hang board work with your GST! 

Love the comments on this topic. 

I started GST as recovery because I kept getting injured whilst climbing. So far its working really well. After climbing 3/4 days a week for 6 years it's finally took its toll. (Bad training on my part).

It was actually hangboarding that was the final straw. Damaged nerves caused all sorts of problems in my wrists, forearms, elbows and triceps.

Anyway, my point is, nearly a year after stopping regular climbing, I am still climbing at the grade I was climbing at my best! I lack a bit of endurance for sport routes now, but because the movement has become ingrained, using the new GST strength has transferred over very well as @Everett Carroll said.

A very general rule I found useful in climbing is, you don't need to think about regular hang boarding or campusing until you can climb at least 6c/7a, simply because almost all moves below that grade don't require the high stress finger strength hangboard/campusing trains.

@Ryan SegervallI now train very easy hangboard for one set, once a week. It is more of a replacement to climbing as I don't have an indoor wall near me at the moment. The beastmaker app is a good starting point if you reduce the reps and sets right down. The grading on the app is a bit steep if you ask me.

Hope this helps.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that hangboarding should be put off until you reach a certain grade.  Hangboarding if used intelligently, will, like any other reasonable strength training methodology, prevent injuries.  However, I do think that most of the programs kicking around on the web are not ideal for beginners (including most "beginner" programs).  The hangboard gives you an opportunity to have controlled, measurable progressive overload for your forearms and fingers, something that is very hard to do with only climbing.

Look up Steve Bechtel's hangboard ladder program.  He uses four grips, for low volume, 2-3 times per week.  The key to this is consistency - you should be doing some amount of hangboarding all year round.  In my own training, I keep it even simpler: one grip (half crimp), with significant added weight, 3-5x 10s hangs per session, 1-5 times per week, depending on my training cycle emphasis.  This is somewhat in line with Eva Lopez's program, but with higher frequency. 

Should you be doing two finger pocket hangs as a beginner?  Probably not.  Should you be hanging as a beginner?  Yes, if you're serious about long term gains.

The campus board is a different story though for sure.

Edited to add: depending on the day, I sometimes have hangboard work after my GST and sometimes before.  Either way seems to work.  After means your fingers are a bit warmer, before means your shoulders are fresher, so it's a toss up.

Hi @Nicholas Kuhl. You make some good points, most of which I actually agree with. In my opinion, for someone just starting climbing, hang boarding is still a bad idea though. I think climbing is miles behind in terms of well researched training protocols. The GB philosophy of bullet proofing yourself steadily and consistently is so important in climbing. Hopefully the inclusion in the Olympics will provide a lot more research into the sport in general. I'm looking forward to @Everett Carroll's research into hangboard with GB style programming.

The reason I think hangboard should not be advised for beginners is the fact that not many beginners will stick to a regimented training plan. Beginner climbers will inevitably be climbing for fun and putting their body's and fingers through massive strain with just an hour of climbing. Say they do this 2-3 times a week if they are serious. This would not allow the tendons enough time to adapt and recover if climbing near maximum and pushing grades every session. Then add some high intensity hangboard stuff at the end of a session or on a down day. Asking for trouble!!!

To compound this, movement takes a lot longer to learn than gaining finger strength. Therefore you could end up with a very incomplete repertoire of climbing tecnique with massive amounts of finger strength. You could possibly end up in the extreme situation of, being able to crush on a crimptastic overhanging problem, but not be able to climb a low grade slab. Highly demotivating falling off a 6a slab when your climbing overhangs of 7b and above.

So, my reasoning for waiting until 7a is that climbers don't really get a true idea of how in depth varied and complex climbing actually is until 3 years in. I certainly didn't have a clue how intense climbing is until it was too late. 

2 hours ago, Christopher Hancox said:

Hi @Nicholas Kuhl. You make some good points, most of which I actually agree with. In my opinion, for someone just starting climbing, hang boarding is still a bad idea though. I think climbing is miles behind in terms of well researched training protocols. The GB philosophy of bullet proofing yourself steadily and consistently is so important in climbing. Hopefully the inclusion in the Olympics will provide a lot more research into the sport in general. I'm looking forward to @Everett Carroll's research into hangboard with GB style programming.

The reason I think hangboard should not be advised for beginners is the fact that not many beginners will stick to a regimented training plan. Beginner climbers will inevitably be climbing for fun and putting their body's and fingers through massive strain with just an hour of climbing. Say they do this 2-3 times a week if they are serious. This would not allow the tendons enough time to adapt and recover if climbing near maximum and pushing grades every session. Then add some high intensity hangboard stuff at the end of a session or on a down day. Asking for trouble!!!

To compound this, movement takes a lot longer to learn than gaining finger strength. Therefore you could end up with a very incomplete repertoire of climbing tecnique with massive amounts of finger strength. You could possibly end up in the extreme situation of, being able to crush on a crimptastic overhanging problem, but not be able to climb a low grade slab. Highly demotivating falling off a 6a slab when your climbing overhangs of 7b and above.

So, my reasoning for waiting until 7a is that climbers don't really get a true idea of how in depth varied and complex climbing actually is until 3 years in. I certainly didn't have a clue how intense climbing is until it was too late. 

Wise words. [Edit: I gave some more thought to the 7a requirement]----I believe there are some safe ways to introduce finger training prior to being a 7a climber. Like Nicholas said, some hanging early on is a great idea as long as the intensity is properly controlled. 

Christopher is very right with his post:
In climbing, raw power is very much overrated, specially in beginners. Altough there is the saying "There's no such thing like too much power", in the very early stage of climbing beginners (like about a year), too much power might hinder you to get a good technique. This can very nicely be seen in the difference male vs.female beginners, where the naturally stronger guys skip to learn movement patterns and good foot work.

Always try to observate or climb with stronger climbers and learn their nice technique... who climbs economically is stronger in the end

Hangboarding: Simply considering the time your tissue will need for recovery, 2-3 climbing sessions per week is plenty for your beginner's fingers, wrists, elbows and shoulders. Only if you have less opportunity to climb you may add partial weight hanging (with support of feet!)

Campus: I would suggest not to start before you have mastered a minimum of 10 full ROM pull ups, and not before three years of serious climbing. I have seen many many climbers with problems either of their finger pulleys, elbows or shoulders...

@Christopher Hancox I think the hangboard is a great way to begin to introduce beginners to regimented training: my advice to a beginner climber would be to keep your gym climbing sessions to 60-90 minutes, with a short (20min) hang session afterwards that has 2-4 minutes of actual TUT.  Focus on hanging with half-crimps to reinforce quality finger position (and prep tissues for inevitable use of the crimp, since that's within the carryover angles of the half-crimp).  Then add in some general strength training on any reputable program on non-climbing days.

@Petra Dvorak I agree very much on your technique comments.  Though I think a lot of the elbow and shoulder issues in many climbers are a result of poor mobility and strength imbalances, that the campus board just happens to expose.

On 8/16/2017 at 5:07 PM, Ryan Segervall said:

Have any of the climbers cross training with GST programmed hang board work into their training? How about using different gripping devises to pull from instead of the standard rings or bar? Just curious 

 

For example( balls, cones, and nunchucks seen on this website)  : http://www.threeballclimbing.com/fitness/suspended-training-equipment.htm 

Looking back, it seems like we all went off on a tangent, and no one really addressed the question of the various hold options that @Ryan Segervall asked about: I think those are more useful for the ninja warrior types than climbers.  Unless you're getting into high-end drytooling and mixed climbing, in which case hang and pull variations from a pair of ice tools that need to be stabilized gets important.

21 minutes ago, Nicholas Kuhl said:

Looking back, it seems like we all went off on a tangent, and no one really addressed the question of the various hold options that @Ryan Segervall asked about: I think those are more useful for the ninja warrior types than climbers.  Unless you're getting into high-end drytooling and mixed climbing, in which case hang and pull variations from a pair of ice tools that need to be stabilized gets important.

Thanks for addressing that @Nicholas Kuhl.

general consensus from this thread tends too agree on 2-3 days of climbing for beginners. I already have a full schedule with GB training so I can only consistently get in 1 day a week on the weekend. 

Provided GB is my main priority  and climbing comes as more secondary, is this once a week enough to stimulate adaptation in a timely maner?  Or should I try to fit in another 30-60min session somewhere else in the week? 

@Nicholas Kuhl, well spotted. Easy to get carried away.

@Ryan Segervall, go with once a week initially. Then add another session in after a couple of months if you feel up to it. If you do add in another session, a movement and technique based session is probably the best bet. Gives fingers extra time to adapt whilst still improving.

You'll progress super quick with GST background!

@Ryan Segervall It really depends on what you call a timely manner - your skill development in climbing will be limited at once a week.  Higher frequency, shorter sessions are best for skill development.  As far as fitness goes, GST will get you pretty far in combination with climbing.

Depending on your strength and fitness levels, skill development may not be separable from taxing physiological stress.  I.e. if you struggle with RCPE1, there's probably no way to boulder at an easy enough level to call it a skill session.  If RCPE6 is casual, then, once you have some basic technique down (i.e. you understand pulling with your feet and the importance of hip direction), you'll have no problem creating a distinction between a skill session and a fitness focused session.

@Christopher Hancox @Nicholas Kuhl 

Currently my pulling strength is quite beginner, just now getting into RC PE2. I will keep to the 60 minute session once a week for now. Want to give my hands and forearms some time to adapt to the stresses before adding in more frequency, for skill specific work. 

Hey guys currently reading my way through The Rock Climbers Training Manual by Micheal Anderson and there is a section in there that touches on the concept of mastery. 

Saying that just because you completed a route doesnt mean you've mastered it, and recommended frequently repeated routes that you have already completed dozens of times until you can preform it with perfect technique, control and without a hint of desperation. 

Curious to what the climbers on here have to say about this and their experiences. To me it rings home with what is being taught in GB with their emphasis on mastery not just completion. 

11 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

Saying that just because you completed a route doesnt mean you've mastered it, and recommended frequently repeated routes that you have already completed dozens of times until you can preform it with perfect technique, control and without a hint of desperation. 

Very solid advice. I couldn't agree more. 

1 hour ago, Ryan Segervall said:

Saying that just because you completed a route doesnt mean you've mastered it, and recommended frequently repeated routes that you have already completed dozens of times until you can preform it with perfect technique, control and without a hint of desperation. 

This is GREAT… I am going to apply this to my pole moves… Actually, this is so good that I am going to print it out thank you!

100% agree with that Ryan.

I used to train at my limit as much as I could. It eventually meant my climbing plateaued, followed by injury. Aim for long term progress and prioritise not getting injured over everything else!

Just realised your in Boulder. Certainly got some world class problems to go and test your climbing training on!