When to click the "Easy" smiley?

Hi all, 

Is there a relatively objective way to know when to indicate "Easy" for a certain exercise. For example, is it when you think you would be able to complete an additional set with good form if you had to? (that's what I've been using) Or is it being able to complete the workout with form and matching the videos one time? More than one workout (3 in a row for example)? Some other criteria?

The reason I ask is because I want to make sure I explore each exercise progression thoroughly in order to lay the proper groundwork. So I don't want to jump to the next progression too early. However, I also don't want to stay on a progression that is not going to place enough demand on me to progress.

There are some exercises that I have been doing for months, and while I am able to complete them matching the video tempo I don't think they are completely "Easy" yet, and I am huffing and puffing a bit and probably couldn't do an additional set to the correct standard. I wanted to know if there was a more objective criterion other than "I was able to breeze through them".

For now I'm erring on the side of being thorough and just sticking to a progression longer if in doubt.

Thanks,

Matt

Excellent question, Matthias. 

Just like you mentioned a good indicator for hitting that "easy" button is when you feel like you could take on another set. When you completed the workout properly with no struggles. Sometimes when I second guess myself I hit "fine" and repeat it just to make sure. 

If you are able to breeze through them, then click "easy" if you are struggling hit "fine" and do additional time. 

Most importantly send us over a video review if you are unsure.

Thanks Tanya, much appreciated! 

Matt

very frequently I finish a step and hit "easy", and then on the next progression I'm just not even close. 

Best example is push ups. I can do 4x6 easy. 4x9? Nope.

I get the first set of 9 done, I grunt and push my way through the 2, form breaks down on 3 and on 4 I can't even get 6 because I'm so shot. 

So what, did I hit "easy" too early? 

Hey Paul -- happens to me all the time. I usually won't hit Easy until I've done at least two workouts that feel Easy. More often than not, the next step is tough and can't be completed in its entirety. I mark it as Fine and do an extra two or three sets of good form reps. For example, for HBP2, I'm on Step 8 now. I can do 3 of the 4 sets of 15 with good form. On the fourth set, I gas out around 10 reps. I'll do another three sets of 8 or 9 reps with minimal rest. I anticipate nailing both HBP workouts as Easy this week and will upgrade to Step 9 and mastery for next week -- which will likely take another week or two pass mastery and finally start into HBP3. So don't fret over it. It's part of the process.

It is my opinion that sometimes in our haste to get to the next progression people may hit the "easy" button too soon. This haste may, in fact, short-circuit some of the progress that can be made training at this intensity.

I remember Coach actually mentioning this in "Building The Gymnastics Body". A lot of progress can still be made even though the workout may seem easy to you. Completing one workout for the required number of sets and reps to me does not qualify that workout as being "easy". Perhaps you were feeling unusually strong or recovered that particular day. To me, it is a better idea to build up a history of completing the workout and it feeling easy under varying circumstances. This way you will get a better indication as to whether you have made the necessary physical adaptations to move to the next level.  

Another thing that is often ignored is the corrections in technique that you are able to make once an exercise has progressed to be easy for you. This stage really allows you to hone in on perfecting body position and movement patterns that are simply too hard to make when you are struggling just to complete the necessary amount of reps.

In concluding "easy" is not a destination that you want to reach and quickly move on. It is a stage of your training that should be enjoyed and used to make even further progress. Once you stop measuring a workout simply on how many reps you completed you will start to see real progress in your training.

Darin, I get that and I understand. Feel free to check my history/work out log and tell me if you think I'm progressing too quickly. If you need me to post it somehow, let me know and I'll try. 

I'm pretty religious about logging my work outs, so you'll be able to see for yourself how long I've been at the same level. I have tried regressing a bit and approaching the plateau again. 

I honestly don't think I'm being hasty. If you check my work out logs, I suspect you will agree. 

18 hours ago, Bill Marr said:

Hey Paul -- happens to me all the time. I usually won't hit Easy until I've done at least two workouts that feel Easy. More often than not, the next step is tough and can't be completed in its entirety. I mark it as Fine and do an extra two or three sets of good form reps. For example, for HBP2, I'm on Step 8 now. I can do 3 of the 4 sets of 15 with good form. On the fourth set, I gas out around 10 reps. I'll do another three sets of 8 or 9 reps with minimal rest. I anticipate nailing both HBP workouts as Easy this week and will upgrade to Step 9 and mastery for next week -- which will likely take another week or two pass mastery and finally start into HBP3. So don't fret over it. It's part of the process.

I'm starting to think this could be better scaled - if people routinely find one step easy and the next impossible. 

Quite a few people seem to be suggesting that you need to deviate from the program to progress. But that leaves me unsure as to how to proceed. 

I'm not sure I am getting a training effect at 4x6 push-ups. At least, not.so much that some day I'll just throw down a 4x9. 

1 hour ago, PAUL DALY said:

I'm starting to think this could be better scaled - if people routinely find one step easy and the next impossible. 

Scaling is not a bad idea. You could try hitting 4x7r and once that gets easy try 4x8r and finally 4x9r. I used this method to get up to 4x36s from 4x24s on my Manna PE1 because a jump of 12s per set was adding 50% more time under tension!

18 hours ago, Darin Phoenix said:

Once you stop measuring a workout simply on how many reps you completed you will start to see real progress in your training.

This is just so beautifully true that I had to write it on a sticky note to see it often  :-) 

Then why is this program based on number of reps?

I mean, we have this program which is where are the criteria for progress is based on sets and Reps and then when someone talks about their sets and Reps they are chastened for thinking too much about sets and Reps.

Paul, I agree with what your'e saying, and have raised related points before in this thread:

The confusion only arises because of the discrepancies with the marketing materials that basically say "just follow along with the videos and click the Easy button when you can complete it". Most of us, after doing a few months of training on the system, have discovered that isn't true. I think the problem is that we are left to figure out our way through those gaps via bits and pieces on the forum rather than through some documentation that helps us negotiate the areas where the program is incomplete. (For example, when to progress to the next level, what to do when the level you just finished is "Easy" but the next one is too hard, how to work around the fact that some of the follow-along videos go too fast because they shortcut the range of motion, etc.) All of these are pretty easily solvable problems but there is no "official" guidance on what to do, so we have to piece it together from sometimes conflicting advice, and Internet forums are unreliable sources of information, so it's hard to know what advice to trust beyond our own intuition.

Just to be clear I wasn't actually saying that sets and reps are not a viable way of measuring progress. And as demonstrated by virtually every training system in the world they are the only objective way that we can quantify progress. What I was trying to get across is that there are also many other ways that we can qualitatively look at our progress and perhaps find ways of improving performance. 

Just because you reached the required amount of reps does not to me automatically qualify the workout as being easy. And too much focus on simply counting repetitions to me will mean that my focus is not where it should be and that is on making sure I am correctly performing the exercise with a 100% focus. 

Paul, I am sure that you are religious in completing your workouts I definitely wasn't aiming to chastise you I was merely trying to provide you with some of the tools that I use to try and improve the quality of my workouts and this is something that is an ongoing process for me as well. 

Coach Sommer and his programs have provided the most comprehensive map of gymnastic strength training available anywhere. It is however up to each individual to explore the terrain and maximize their own results. As a forum coach, I am always happy to provide as much assistance as necessary to help you achieve your fitness goals.

9 hours ago, Matthias Schwartz said:

Paul, I agree with what your'e saying, and have raised related points before in this thread:

The confusion only arises because of the discrepancies with the marketing materials that basically say "just follow along with the videos and click the Easy button when you can complete it". Most of us, after doing a few months of training on the system, have discovered that isn't true. I think the problem is that we are left to figure out our way through those gaps via bits and pieces on the forum rather than through some documentation that helps us negotiate the areas where the program is incomplete. (For example, when to progress to the next level, what to do when the level you just finished is "Easy" but the next one is too hard, how to work around the fact that some of the follow-along videos go too fast because they shortcut the range of motion, etc.) All of these are pretty easily solvable problems but there is no "official" guidance on what to do, so we have to piece it together from sometimes conflicting advice, and Internet forums are unreliable sources of information, so it's hard to know what advice to trust beyond our own intuition.

thanks so much. Yeah, I really wish the guidance was out there saying "hey, at some point the jump from 4x6 to 4x9 might be too much of a jump. It's a 33% increase in volume -- not a trivial amount. If you are at the point where this jump is a lot, here are the work arounds". That should be right out there, front and center in the advice. Would save me a lot of frustration. 

Based on my prior conditioning level, going from 3x3 to 3x6 was NOTHING. But now I've run into the limiting factor of my conditioning and big jumps just aren't going to happen. The program should address this. 

Hi Paul, 

Yeah, one of the patterns I've seen is when the jump to the next progression is too large. I know Coach Sommer is a proponent of large jumps in some cases, so that may be by design. He has discussed that in one of his Tim Ferris interviews, where he has a kid deadlifting 135 lbs for weeks or months until it is very easy and then jumps to 185. He does that to make sure the connective tissue, which takes longer to adapt, catches up with the strength. This is a good strategy but I think sometimes, when working with lower volumes of exercises, for example, 4x6, it may be hard to get a training effect over the long term. My strategy is just to add an extra set or two. So if it's 4x6, I do another set or two but I stop short a rep before failure. That seems the way to add some easy training volume.

However, after having read Darin's and Everett's advice (thanks guys), I think I will try taking the road of making the movement as strict as possible to make it more challenging when a progression seems too easy, but not easy enough to jump to the next one. So, in the pushup example, working on a stronger scapular protraction at the top, a stronger posterior pelvic tilt all the way through, and going as deep as possible. I work on these anyway but they can always be improved. And as I stated in the other thread, once one gets really strict with the form, following along with the videos goes out the window, as they don't use strict form and go too fast to match pace with when being strict oneself.

55 minutes ago, Matthias Schwartz said:

However, after having read Darin's and Everett's advice (thanks guys), I think I will try taking the road of making the movement as strict as possible to make it more challenging when a progression seems too easy, but not easy enough to jump to the next one. So, in the pushup example, working on a stronger scapular protraction at the top, a stronger posterior pelvic tilt all the way through, and going as deep as possible. I work on these anyway but they can always be improved. And as I stated in the other thread, once one gets really strict with the form, following along with the videos goes out the window, as they don't use strict form and go too fast to match pace with when being strict oneself.

A big mistake I've made is moving up in reps before I had the form dialed in. I was finding that doing 3x3r wasn't giving me enough practice on the movement to "get it," so I'd keep hitting Easy and figured it would all click at some point.

What I'm doing now is allowing myself to progress to the first level where there are 5 sets, so I'm getting plenty of practice sets each week, but then stay there until I have the form perfected.

So for HBP/PE2, for example, I'll do 5x3r pushups and keep submitting form check videos until the coaches say I have it completely nailed. 

Then and only then do I start adding reps to build endurance/work capacity.

Lesson learned the hard way: If my form is sloppy, it's not going to get better just by doing more reps.

Quote

Yeah, one of the patterns I've seen is when the jump to the next progression is too large. I know Coach Sommer is a proponent of large jumps in some cases, so that may be by design. He has discussed that in one of his Tim Ferris interviews, where he has a kid deadlifting 135 lbs for weeks or months until it is very easy and then jumps to 185. He does that to make sure the connective tissue, which takes longer to adapt, catches up with the strength. This is a good strategy but I think sometimes, when working with lower volumes of exercises, for example, 4x6, it may be hard to get a training effect over the long term. My strategy is just to add an extra set or two. So if it's 4x6, I do another set or two but I stop short a rep before failure. That seems the way to add some easy training volume.

My understanding on this is that this kind of "steady state" approach is more appropriate for intermediate/advanced athletes. In F1 we're all beginners, and as a beginner the goal is to continue to make more linear progress.

3 hours ago, PAUL DALY said:

thanks so much. Yeah, I really wish the guidance was out there saying "hey, at some point the jump from 4x6 to 4x9 might be too much of a jump. It's a 33% increase in volume -- not a trivial amount. If you are at the point where this jump is a lot, here are the work arounds". That should be right out there, front and center in the advice. Would save me a lot of frustration. 

Based on my prior conditioning level, going from 3x3 to 3x6 was NOTHING. But now I've run into the limiting factor of my conditioning and big jumps just aren't going to happen. The program should address this. 

 

Hey Paul, I agree these jumps are often pretty steep.

In the introductory essays that are part of the course library, Coach does say that it's perfectly fine to increment the reps in micro steps, so you can go from 5x9r to 5x10r instead of jumping all the way to 5x12r.

What I do with the follow-along videos is use the 5x12r one and just take a couple of extra breaths after finishing my 10 reps.

I do get what you're asking for—some official guidance on plateaus would be great. Maybe a good webinar topic? 

I really appreciate the feed back. 

One thing I don't appreciate, generally, and this is true of a lot of different types of coaching programs, not limited to fitness (could be how to increase your sales, could be diet, could be investing) is to throw any failure on the end user. I see this in a lot of contexts. 

Listen, my form is fine. My hands are right under my shoulders, my elbows rub along my ribs on the way down. I keep a slight posterior pelvic tilt. I touch my chin and chest to the floor simultaneously and only lightly. I retract my scapulas at the bottom and protract them at the top. I keep my head neutral. I keep my glutes, quads and core engaged throughout the set. I inhale on the way down and exhale on the way up. I do not pause at the top. 

This isn't about me not following the program. This is about the program needing to be modified for limitations in my progress. 

6 hours ago, PAUL DALY said:

I really appreciate the feed back. 

One thing I don't appreciate, generally, and this is true of a lot of different types of coaching programs, not limited to fitness (could be how to increase your sales, could be diet, could be investing) is to throw any failure on the end user. I see this in a lot of contexts. 

Listen, my form is fine. My hands are right under my shoulders, my elbows rub along my ribs on the way down. I keep a slight posterior pelvic tilt. I touch my chin and chest to the floor simultaneously and only lightly. I retract my scapulas at the bottom and protract them at the top. I keep my head neutral. I keep my glutes, quads and core engaged throughout the set. I inhale on the way down and exhale on the way up. I do not pause at the top. 

This isn't about me not following the program. This is about the program needing to be modified for limitations in my progress. 

I don't think that it is fair to expect the program to be individualised for every trainee. As every trainee has a different background and encounters different obstacles along their path. This forum and the coaches feedback IS part of the program, and specific advice is often (in fact almost always) provided. The next step beyond this is personal coaching, and that is also available through this system, whether by attending seminars or going to a GST affiliated gym. They even have visitor sessions.

Typing 'plateau' in the forum search bar, or searching on eg HBP will bring up any number of hits.

Also, and very importantly, I don't see hitting a plateau on any of these exercises as a 'failure'. Then again, I can't do 4 x 9 strict push ups yet either - or maybe I can, but don't yet feel 4 x 6 is 'easy' enough just yet.

It will come.

Once you get to the Foundation 2 exercises (and I've already contacted tech support about this), you log "sets and reps" only. The problem is that you are automatically progressed to the next level once you complete the prescribed "sets and reps" and mobility. To stay on a progression and then perfect form, you either have to reduce the recorded reps, or record your progress some other way. There's a big difference between having the strength and endurance to complete a progression,and doing it with correct form.

My suggestion was, for F2 and after, to provide some kind of "poor-good-perfect" indicator (like the smileys, maybe) for both mobility and reps, and progress to longer sets or more reps occurs only when mobility and reps are "perfect". This would affect the coaching algorithm somehow and would need further development.

9 minutes ago, Nicholas Murray said:

My suggestion was, for F2 and after, to provide some kind of "poor-good-perfect" indicator (like the smileys, maybe) for both mobility and reps, and progress to longer sets or more reps occurs only when mobility and reps are "perfect". This would affect the coaching algorithm somehow and would need further development

I think one super simple solution to implement would be one more little check box next to the mobility check box: "stay on this progression"… This would tell the algorithm not to move us forward. I think that at F2 (and above) level, the trainees are experienced enough so they know when they are ready to proceed or need to stay longer, so it would be up to us to decide how long we want to stay… right now, I am just unchecking the mobility (and write myself a note), or just log the last set one less repetition. With the check box, it would be so much prettier…  

22 hours ago, Josh Earl said:

Hey Paul, I agree these jumps are often pretty steep.

In the introductory essays that are part of the course library, Coach does say that it's perfectly fine to increment the reps in micro steps, so you can go from 5x9r to 5x10r instead of jumping all the way to 5x12r.

What I do with the follow-along videos is use the 5x12r one and just take a couple of extra breaths after finishing my 10 reps.

I do get what you're asking for—some official guidance on plateaus would be great. Maybe a good webinar topic? 

Hey @Josh Earl, could you possibly point me to those essays by Coach Sommer please? I've read a bunch of stuff but want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Thanks!

1 hour ago, Matthias Schwartz said:

Hey @Josh Earl, could you possibly point me to those essays by Coach Sommer please? I've read a bunch of stuff but want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Thanks!

@Matthias Schwartz Sure thing! They're available from the menu under Fitness > Introduction.

The part I was referring to above is in the How Mastery Works essay. Coach says:

Quote

If you are struggling with a step, it is perfectly acceptable to reduce the programming load until you can master that step. For example, if 3x12s isn't achievable it is perfectly fine to do 3x10s as a micro step. In this example, however, 3x10s should be your personal best and not just what's comfortable. Comfortable does not produce results and will result in stalled progress.

4 minutes ago, Josh Earl said:

@Matthias Schwartz Sure thing! They're available from the menu under Fitness > Introduction.

The part I was referring to above is in the How Mastery Works essay. Coach says:

 

Thanks @Josh Earl, that was exactly what I needed. I read that a year ago but didn't really absorb it when I started out, so it's great to read it again! The tidbit about the 3x10s not being comfortable is gold. I wasn't sure whether his stance was to workout at a sub-maximal or maximal effort for results. I see he tends toward the maximal, which makes me feel better about doing that as well, as that is generally what I'd prefer. Thanks again!