Rest and recovey

@Katherine Zodiaco

Yes once you get a good amount of measurements logged then you can really start using the data. For me low 8's high 7's are a sign that I need to back off. middle 8's low 9's are a good place to be for me. 

The app is a great coach that keeps you from training into the ground hahaha we all struggle. I like to train and train hard and hate to rest but this usually just ends up with me getting injured and with no progress being made. This app for me personally has really helped keep me in check and prevent overtraining and regression. 

If you have questions on how to read the data let me know after you get a good amount logged!

and for reference attached is what it looks like when you are over doing it. Took be about 2 weeks to finally accept it until backing off. The consequences: some golfers elbow started to reappear

Best to back off sooner rather than latter. I tend to learn the hard way  

@Ryan Segervall thanks a lot for this app, I'm currently in a rest period due to low back pain and sensitive shoulder.  It's a good time to try it.

On 30/04/2017 at 11:37 PM, Suzanna McGee said:

@Étienne Lajeunesse, well, try it for yourself and see how you feel. Only you can decide if it is worth it

I have been taking ice cold showers in the morning for over a year now. No warm, just ice cold. It feels good (when I am done, ha ha). I recover nicely, training almost daily. When I started, I just wanted to see what it will do to me. And I just keep going. Never missed a day. 

By the way @Suzanna McGee is it good to end the cold bath/shower with hot water? 

17 hours ago, Ryan Segervall said:

@Katherine Zodiaco

 

Yes once you get a good amount of measurements logged then you can really start using the data. For me low 8's high 7's are a sign that I need to back off. middle 8's low 9's are a good place to be for me. 

The app is a great coach that keeps you from training into the ground hahaha we all struggle. I like to train and train hard and hate to rest but this usually just ends up with me getting injured and with no progress being made. This app for me personally has really helped keep me in check and prevent overtraining and regression. 

If you have questions on how to read the data let me know after you get a good amount logged!

 

 

and for reference attached is what it looks like when you are over doing it. Took be about 2 weeks to finally accept it until backing off. The consequences: some golfers elbow started to reappear

Best to back off sooner rather than latter. I tend to learn the hard way  

 

Are those numbers individual specific?  So like while for you 7.5 is overtrained but for some one else it may 6.5 or even 9.5? And should your peak performance numbers adjust over time?

1 hour ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

By the way @Suzanna McGee is it good to end the cold bath/shower with hot water? 

End on what feels best. 

Ending on cold is going to strengthen your thermoregulatory pathways along with give you better vagus tone over time. 

But ending on heat will reintroduce new blood to those damaged tissues faster. 

I say play around with it and see what makes you feel best. And remember these showers are just a modality and should not be considered the primary in your rehab strategy. They are designed to assist you along side your strengthening/rehab work. 

Best of luck, 

Ryan 

13 minutes ago, Malcolm Watters said:

Are those numbers individual specific?  So like while for you 7.5 is overtrained but for some one else it may 6.5 or even 9.5? And should your peak performance numbers adjust over time?

great question. 

I know in general the higher the number (10 being the highest) the better balance you have between your two branches of your ANS (autonomic nervous system) which comprises of your parasympathetic (rest and digest) and your sympathetic (fight or flight). 

However some people are going to carry a higher stress level so even if they weren't training but just stressed out from work for example you could see their HRV scores to be a bit lower. 

So to answer your question its yes and no. Yes being peoples baseline values will be different from person to person, but the higher the number the better and more robust your nervous system is. When you start seeing declines or large deviations away from baseline that is when you should pay close attention to your body and give it what it needs. Usually a little break away from the heavy training.  

Hope this helps,

Ryan

13 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

great question. 

I know in general the higher the number (10 being the highest) the better balance you have between your two branches of your ANS (autonomic nervous system) which comprises of your parasympathetic (rest and digest) and your sympathetic (fight or flight). 

However some people are going to carry a higher stress level so even if they weren't training but just stressed out from work for example you could see their HRV scores to be a bit lower. 

So to answer your question its yes and no. Yes being peoples baseline values will be different from person to person, but the higher the number the better and more robust your nervous system is. When you start seeing declines or large deviations away from baseline that is when you should pay close attention to your body and give it what it needs. Usually a little break away from the heavy training.  

Hope this helps,

Ryan

Makes sense, I would think there are a lot of factors in that too, age, weight, body fat, lean muscle just your resting heart rate.  I got the app yesterday, worked out pretty hard and was outside all day, very hot here in Florida.  I felt rested this morning but my number was 7.6.  It was my first measurement so obviously I have no baseline or trend.  will be interesting to see if that number goes up after a rest day or goes down after a more intense day.

Maybe we can compare our data in a few weeks to see if it's really individualized?  What do you think?

41 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Maybe we can compare our data in a few weeks to see if it's really individualized?  What do you think?

Sure, I agree with what Ryan said though, there are gonna be other factors involved. You take a guy that does a strenuous job for a living he may never get to as high of a level as a student that goes to the gym 3 times a week, just lifestyle won't let him recover.  It will be interesting to see.  

Of course @Malcolm Watters, and we all have different lifestyles more or less.  I'm just curious to see how different the gaps will be between a person to another.

Just now, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Of course @Malcolm Watters, and we all have different lifestyles more or less.  I'm just curious to see how different the gaps will be between a person to another.

Yea, I'm all for it.  I'm curious about the whole thing.  For instance, the whole Foundations program is built to increase your bodies ability to work.  So I would think the more gains you make in foundations the less need for recovery but I guess that depends on the individual too. Anyway, really interesting stuff, can't wait to get another reading tomorrow!!

@Malcolm Watters @Étienne Lajeunesse

This might help answer your question. Best to use the data and see where you tend to feel best and preform best. 

And yes it does vary from individual to individual 

I started this yesterday as well. Pretty interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing @Ryan Segervall. I'll post my stats once I get a few more data points in the system. 

6 minutes ago, Everett Carroll said:

I started this yesterday as well. Pretty interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing @Ryan Segervall. I'll post my stats once I get a few more data points in the system. 

Funny, I also downloaded the app yesterday and will start measuring tomorrow (gotta read the instructions)… I only "worry" that the thing will tell me to train less… lol… I love to train  :-) It's going to be fun to see all the data of all of us using this. Thanks @Ryan Segervall for the inspiration! I love to analyze everything, this is totally super cool  :-) 

7 hours ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

By the way @Suzanna McGee is it good to end the cold bath/shower with hot water? 

Just what Ryan advised you further down the thread. Experiment. Feel what it does to you… I do only ice cold in the morning. No warm/hot before or after. Then later in the evening, I take a "real" shower or bath to clean myself or soak and enjoy. This morning ice cold one is just to fire the blood circulation, stimulate my brown fat, lymphatic system, and all the good stuff  

1 hour ago, Suzanna McGee said:

Just what Ryan advised you further down the thread. Experiment. Feel what it does to you… I do only ice cold in the morning. No warm/hot before or after. Then later in the evening, I take a "real" shower or bath to clean myself or soak and enjoy. This morning ice cold one is just to fire the blood circulation, stimulate my brown fat, lymphatic system, and all the good stuff  

@Étienne Lajeunesse

To further add to this, 

what @Suzanna McGee is doing is what I would consider optimal. Ice in the morning for anywhere from 1-5 minutes, then a hot shower at night before bed. 

Ice in the morning as Suzanna mentioned will lead to a bunch of good things. 

Lymphatic system: gets stimulated and will help flush out waste that has built up over night. 

Brown Fat mobilization: Research is now suggesting that adults do have a bit of brown fat still in the system, as before it was thought we got rid of most of it after child hood. Brown Fat is used to help increase core temperature, and is usually only burned when you cold. In this day and age we are very spoiled with being set at the optimal temperature and rarely are exposed to the cold. Daily exposure via cold shower will help restore the efficiency of this pathway 

Vagus tone: Although I am not completely qualified to delve into this topic as I have not spent a lengthy amount researching it cause ive been busy at university diving into other physiology within the body. But I will try to lay down the gist of it. The vagus nerve along with the phrenic nerve are very important nerves that innervates pretty much all of your digestive organs, heart, and lungs. when you take a cold shower for the first time you will find yourself short of breath and freaking out. Over time you will be able to slow your breath and relax during this cold exposure. This in short is improving your ability handle stress, along with improving the efficiency and long term health of all organs in the digestive, cardiac, and respiratory. (I am sure there is more too it than that but this is my best guess at the moment). Once I wrap up this semester and have a bit more free time I will look into this deeper as it is very interesting).

Hormonal: You are going to get a boost of norepinephrine and epinephrine that are going to kick start your day and make you very alert. Combine this with a cup of coffee and an appropriate fast and your productivity will sky rocket.

Showering hot at night

Main thing I have found is that it helps secrete melatonin which preps you for sleep. I often will take a shower in the dark, and the meditate for 10 minutes before bed. I usually am asleep within 5 minutes of getting under the sheets. 

This in conjunction with some blue light canceling glasses that I put on about 2-3 hrs before bed can really help improve your sleep/recovery. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Light-Blocking-Glasses-Registered/dp/B01EIP0CXC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493767140&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=blue%2Blight%2Bblocking%2Bglasses&th=1

^ incase your interested

and Ive attached an image of the phrenic and vagus innervation just to give you a visual representation. 

Sorry for the novel too, I get excited about this stuff  And if anyone has anything to add or if I am wrong about something please please correct me. Always trying to learn 

And to everyone who is excited about HRV 

this makes me super pumped ! It is a definitely a game changer. Ive been using it over a month now and have found it to be one of the most useful things to keep track of  

Glad I could help !

Ryan 

I'm in too! @Ryan Segervall, thanks for getting excited about this stuff - my new showering temperatures / routine begins tonight! I loved all the heath benefits you posted. Without them I wouldn't have decided to give it a try.

7.6 day one, 9.3 day 2.  

@Ryan Segervall 

Thanks a lot for all this info!  I'm always interested to learn about the human body.  I tried the cold shower on mornings, it wasn't fun at the beginning but I start to get used to it.  I don't always take shower before going to sleep, but in any ways, I don't have any difficulties to fall asleep.  But I want to know more about blue glasses and if you have some nutrition tips to give (if that's what you were pointing at saying ''fast'')!

By the way, I just downloaded HRV4 Training, I'll give some news in a few days

14 hours ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

@Ryan Segervall 

Thanks a lot for all this info!  I'm always interested to learn about the human body.  I tried the cold shower on mornings, it wasn't fun at the beginning but I start to get used to it.  I don't always take shower before going to sleep, but in any ways, I don't have any difficulties to fall asleep.  But I want to know more about blue glasses and if you have some nutrition tips to give (if that's what you were pointing at saying ''fast'')!

By the way, I just downloaded HRV4 Training, I'll give some news in a few days

- Cold showers are going to take some time to really get used too. and dont worry about if your not showering at night. I usually only do that if I am still wired from the day and trying to wind down. 

- Fasting: great topic, I am going to keep it brief as I am rushed at the moment. But in general i like to use intermittent fasting as a tool (not a end all be all but a tool that can help). Basically I wake up around 6:30-7am cold shower followed by some limbering and then a cup of decaf coffee (upwards of 40mg of Caffeine) and only drink water and some salt up until around 12-2pm. Health benefits are profound. Insulin sensitivity is increased, body is able to fight off sickness and eliminate toxins for efficiently, anti aging. The list goes on. 

On 4/29/2017 at 2:38 AM, Leigh Kettle said:

I'm Intrigued about these ice baths . Is running a bath purely with cold water adequate or would you have to fill with ice . If the latter you guys must have some huge freezers :-) 

also how long would you lay in one . - I'm shivering thinking about it 

Depends how easily you adapt to the cold. I chop up a frozen 6l waterbottle throw in a bunch of ice cube bags from the store and fill the tub with cold water. That ll result in about 11degr. Celsius. Not thaaat cold actually. I stay submerged for up to 8-10minutes.
Actually, I don't wait very long after workouts. Usually do some stretching and cool down for about an hour and then take the ice bath.
I have to add though that  a) I ve been coming off an injury for a long time now and still don't go all in during exercise.  
b) I'm living in a tropical zone and the heat+humidity have been taking it's toll. Over the past 2years I've been fighting a lot of inflammatory issues. I feel like the ice baths are just giving me a break  
I have also been taking nothing but cold showers for the past 6-7months, which is no big deal with the tap water temperature here. Moving to Colorado this autumn...now that'll be a challenge to still take cold showers in the morning!!
As for Everett, I read a post that he takes 4degr. ice baths....now that's coooold! 
Regarding sauna, I love it but can only do it to relax, as it makes me sluggish for a while. Sauna sessions should always be paired with ice baths/showers in between and at the end.

6 hours ago, Ryan Segervall said:

- Cold showers are going to take some time to really get used too. and dont worry about if your not showering at night. I usually only do that if I am still wired from the day and trying to wind down. 

 

- Fasting: great topic, I am going to keep it brief as I am rushed at the moment. But in general i like to use intermittent fasting as a tool (not a end all be all but a tool that can help). Basically I wake up around 6:30-7am cold shower followed by some limbering and then a cup of decaf coffee (upwards of 40mg of Caffeine) and only drink water and some salt up until around 12-2pm. Health benefits are profound. Insulin sensitivity is increased, body is able to fight off sickness and eliminate toxins for efficiently, anti aging. The list goes on. 

 

I was listening to a podcast with Dr Rhonda Patrick, she says your fast ends as soon as you have anything non-water.  My love for morning coffee makes this really hard.  I gerenerally wake up 5:30-5:45, get dressed, try and hold off my coffee till as close to 7 as I can, after coffee it's usually only water till noon, then I try and eat my dinner as close to 6pm as I can.  I think a 12 hr fast is good, 14 is better.  I can't say for sure that I've felt benefits of this but like you said there are a lot of benefits

@Malcolm Watters

yes coffee technically ends the fast, but from the research I have done you are still picking up around 85-90% of the benefits. 

Sure coffee will make you body slightly less capable of focusing in on removing those toxins but, blood sugar levels are going to be low the entire fast, insulin sensitivity will increase over time, fat will be mobilized easier and your productivity will increase do to the release of norepinephrine. 

And for a interesting case study ive done on myself for school.

i did a insulin sensitivity test, where I came in 12hrs fasted drank 75g of dextrose and monitored my blood glucose levels.

fasted: 72mg/dL

30min: 134mg/dL

60min: 84mg/dL

90min: 84mg/dL

^ super healthy response that is very close to optimal insulin sensiticity. To say this response is purely from fasting is unlikely as there are lots of this that play a role, muscle mass, generall afticity level, diet and omega 6 omega 3 retio, ect. Ect. but fasting is likely contributing.

I usually eat my last meal by 6-8pm eat first meal around 12-2pm 

1 hour ago, Ryan Segervall said:

@Malcolm Watters

 

yes coffee technically ends the fast, but from the research I have done you are still picking up around 85-90% of the benefits. 

Sure coffee will make you body slightly less capable of focusing in on removing those toxins but, blood sugar levels are going to be low the entire fast, insulin sensitivity will increase over time, fat will be mobilized easier and your productivity will increase do to the release of norepinephrine. 

 

And for a interesting case study ive done on myself for school.

i did a insulin sensitivity test, where I came in 12hrs fasted drank 75g of dextrose and monitored my blood glucose levels.

fasted: 72mg/dL

30min: 134mg/dL

60min: 84mg/dL

90min: 84mg/dL

 

^ super healthy response that is very close to optimal insulin sensiticity. To say this response is purely from fasting is unlikely as there are lots of this that play a role, muscle mass, generall afticity level, diet and omega 6 omega 3 retio, ect. Ect. but fasting is likely contributing.

 

I usually eat my last meal by 6-8pm eat first meal around 12-2pm 

 

That info is really interesting to me, I wish I had been that interested in my 20s instead of my mid 40s but better late than never.  It's good to hear about the coffee. My mom battles high blood sugar, it drives me crazy that she won't try intermittent fasting.  its such an easy thing to try.  

Back to the HRV, I got my 4th measurement in today, It seems like everyone will have a baseline around 8, its just not all 8s are created equal.