GST is awesome, is there an equivalent programme for endurance training?

Hi,

I am really enjoying the GB courses (currently working from foundation 1, the stretch courses and handstand course).

Like many on here, I have always exercised, however with GB is head and shoulders above anything I have tried. I have trained through the programmes since September 2016, starting from the beginning and progressing through every step. I have never continued with a single workout programme this long. I feel that the scientifically programme of development of exercises that minimise injury and maximise results, is hugely beneficial, and only wished I started sooner..... 

I am now  looking for a programme that has a similar approach to endurance training (running, rowing or other) to compliment GST.

Has anyone came across anything like this?

Cheers

Enzo

PS See you all at the UK seminar in July!!

@Enzo Vullo did you find anything?

I'm curious too! I love this GB programming!

For running, the closest I can think of would be Couch to 5k.

For endurance/cardio stuff, have you considered CrossFit? Not the same style as GB, but what kept me going there is that everything is similar. Everything is scalable for everyone, so there's always a way to challenge yourself as you get better, stronger, faster.  For example, inclined rows too easy, do pull ups. Pull ups too easy, learn muscle ups. Got those? More reps! Or weighted! Or both. And, it's great for the cardio endurance too. After CrossFitting for almost three years, I went out and ran a 5k with my mom. At that point, I hadn't run more than 400m straight during the last two years (and I'd mostly avoided the running workouts altogether), but I didn't have to stop and walk during that 5k, and I could chat with her throughout the course, which was something I could never do when running before.

Yep, drank the Kool-Aid and never looked back. ;-)

I went to a CrossFit gym once.

In that particular gym I had the impression that everybody could do everything half but nothing right.

People did all movments very rushed and hectic.

I like the deliberate and controlled movements in GB a lot. My guess is that people first should be able to do it like this before they do it under time pressure.

I have to confess, after that I never went to any other Crossfit gym.

Maybe I should think about it.

Regarding running. I wonder how often per week and how long would be beneficial and when it starts to impair the strength training of GST.

I was thinking about this and have come across sprint interval training that I was thinking of starting on a stationairy bike so that I didn't put too much strain on my joints.  I just want to keep a good base level so will probably start with twice a week.  I haven't really done any research yet it, I was just going to start with trial and error. 

5 hours ago, Jennifer Marie said:

have you considered CrossFit?

@Jennifer Marie, you did not say that??!!  (Ha ha, kidding, I have a huge respect for your athleticism!) But I think CrossFit is the worst thing that an unprepared athlete can do… and I think we are all kind of unprepared until we went through all the Foundations.  Just like @Michael Vetter says, people do tons of thing, half-assed… they get hurt, sooner or later. I have not yet seen one person, who did not get hurt in CrossFit, eventually.  I think even Coach Sommer talks about it somewhere in one of his podcast, about the forces on the joints in all these kipping and uncontrolled movements, and people don't have the mobility to do that stuff. Nor technique… I'd say avoid CrossFit as much as you can. 

4 hours ago, Michael Vetter said:

I have to confess, after that I never went to any other Crossfit gym.

The best decision you can do… Cheers to you!!!!

It's funny how Crossfit has a bad reputation around here!  I also tried it once and didn't really liked it in the first place.  I agree with @Suzanna McGeethat even coach sommer mention it in his podcast with barbell shrug :

BUT, to give a point to @Jennifer Marie, there are good coaches and bad coaches.  If you have luck and fall on a good one, I think it can be a good complement... while prioritizing GB I mean ahah

Hi Suzanna, I've heard this before, and it saddens me that such things are still being said. Sure, there are bad gyms out there and bad coaches, but when it comes down to it, coached and performed correctly, CrossFit is not a high injury sport. A comparison of injury rates of CF athletes to several other sports, including weightlifting and gymnastics, has shown similar (not higher) numbers.

Is kipping a pull up bad for you? If you're not physically prepared and technically sound, of course it is. But, so is doing a back lever before you're ready. Does that mean gymastics is dangerous? Of course not!

What causes injury in CrossFit, gymnastics, and so many other activities is bad or no coaching and/or (and this second one is the bigger offender in my opinion) athlete egos that make them think they're better than they are and can ignore their coaches.

The bad eggs gave CrossFit a bad name off the start, but now, it's more like my home gym where you will see a coach physically remove weight plates from a barbell mid-workout when an athlete makes a dumb and dangerous choice, and the rest of us get a challenging workout day in and day out, as long as we acknowledge our limitations while we're destroying our weaknesses.

Intensity isn't a bad thing, but technical success much precede intensity.

17 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

BUT, to give a point to @Jennifer Marie, there are good coaches and bad coaches.  If you have luck and fall on a good one, I think it can be a good complement... while prioritizing GB I mean ahah

Barbell Shrugged?? How'd I miss that one? I do love that podcast. This must've been before I found them. Thanks for the link!

I agree, Etienne, priorities. I've been struggling with how to prioritize my love of weightlifting with the great benefits of GB. There's not enough time in the day away from the horror of office work!

Though let's use that to redirect to the purpose of this thread. What kind of "other" stuff have people tried to complement GB and build endurance? Any good programs out there? And can they fit in with GB workouts?

 I'm currently doing a Assault Bike calorie challenge. That machine is evil, but it's a great cardio workout. My hope is to hit a higher number for "watts" each session, to build up power and endurance while biking... that will hopefully transfer to stronger lungs when running season reappears in the spring.

4 hours ago, Jennifer Marie said:

Though let's use that to redirect to the purpose of this thread. What kind of "other" stuff have people tried to complement GB and build endurance? Any good programs out there? And can they fit in with GB workouts?

 I'm currently doing a Assault Bike calorie challenge. That machine is evil, but it's a great cardio workout. My hope is to hit a higher number for "watts" each session, to build up power and endurance while biking... that will hopefully transfer to stronger lungs when running season reappears in the spring.

You'll see how coach is safe about saying that crossfit could be good but with enough preparation.

Anyway, good idea you have here! 

On my part, I do skipping rope.  I like to learn tricks and knowing that a course is planned for this motivates me to practice and learn new stuff

I used to think like many here that CF is not worth the risk, but now I do enjoy the cardio aspect of it, among other things. After taking their classes (not just one! I didn’t like it after just one class, but I went back), working with the coaches, and being coached 1-on-1 for the oly weightlifting, I changed my mind about CF. It has a lot of benefits to offer. Especially if you start it after going through and being educated by GB, you already have a head start on all the bodyweight exercises, and you know your limit and how to avoid injuries. You’ll really get a lot of benefits from CF. CF is not a high risk sports. Having a huge ego is more dangerous at any sports.

GB and CF emphasize very different things. They are not in conflict. In contrary, I think they complement each other well. But prioritizing is the key. It’s not the point of this thread to argue btw CF and GB, and there’s really nothing in conflict to argue about. Everything has pros and cons. Keep an open mind, take all the pros and avoid the cons. That’s how you grow  

2 minutes ago, Jin Liu said:

GB and CF emphasize very different things. They are not in conflict. In contrary, I think they complement each other well. But prioritizing is the key. It’s not the point of this thread to argue btw CF and GB, and there’s really nothing in conflict to argue about. Everything has pros and cons. Keep an open mind, take all the pros and avoid the cons. That’s how you grow  

 

That's true! Some people will prefer a certain sport, others GB and others CF.  There's not only one way of making things happen.  Some are better than others for some goals!  And some will like something for what they looking for.  Like you said @Jin Liu, let's be open to learn

Generally speaking. If one follows the recommended way of completing a set. The sets become cardiovascular/endurance training.

That was posted somesoby time ago by Wesley Tan (Gymnastic Bodies Forma) to show how generally Crossfit is breaking people s bodies: http://thebarbellspin.com/functional-fitness/pec-tears-at-regionals-23-and-counting/

And these are prepared athletes not beginners. I m no expert and I m sure than not every CF coach is the same, but the few times I ve seen someone doing CF his form was terrible. I m sure that if you master Foundation and has a really good preparation and knowledge then you can safely do CF, but as a general rule people is not training safe. I think few people get benefits from CF and this people are the most talented and athletics. If you are a hardgainer or a clumsy you ll go nowhere or even worse, it will lead to injury. So even if CF workout i ve seen it s paid little atention to mobility. You can t do gymnastict ring exercises without gymnastic preparation. What Wesley Tan was explaining to some people who got angry with the above post is that the athletes were performing half rom ring dips because they didn t have the appropiate mobility to go to shoulders and that s why they torned their bicep tendon. I m having a hard time to progress and to learn all the tecniques from GB, i can t imagine someone like myself having any benefit from CF. Before Gb i weightlift and do calisthenics for 2 years, only basics, it was 2 years of injuries and feeling bad due to lack of mobility.

3 hours ago, Antonio Alías Montoya said:

That was posted somesoby time ago by Wesley Tan (Gymnastic Bodies Forma) to show how generally Crossfit is breaking people s bodies: http://thebarbellspin.com/functional-fitness/pec-tears-at-regionals-23-and-counting/

And these are prepared athletes not beginners. I m no expert and I m sure than not every CF coach is the same, but the few times I ve seen someone doing CF his form was terrible. I m sure that if you master Foundation and has a really good preparation and knowledge then you can safely do CF, but as a general rule people is not training safe. I think few people get benefits from CF and this people are the most talented and athletics. If you are a hardgainer or a clumsy you ll go nowhere or even worse, it will lead to injury. So even if CF workout i ve seen it s paid little atention to mobility. You can t do gymnastict ring exercises without gymnastic preparation. What Wesley Tan was explaining to some people who got angry with the above post is that the athletes were performing half rom ring dips because they didn t have the appropiate mobility to go to shoulders and that s why they torned their bicep tendon. I m having a hard time to progress and to learn all the tecniques from GB, i can t imagine someone like myself having any benefit from CF. Before Gb i weightlift and do calisthenics for 2 years, only basics, it was 2 years of injuries and feeling bad due to lack of mobility.

This article is a good wake-up call for CF athletes who are not aware of what could happen.

Of what I know from CF, generally speaking, there's not a lot of specialized coached (maybe I'm wrong?) so they go with what they know.  Unfortunately, sometimes (or more often?) the knowledge is limited.

But like I said, there are good coaches out there too that will take time to coach athletes correctly!  I don't think that CF is bad, I think it's the way it's done by the knowledge base.

I think this is a good idea to supplement GB with some endurance training, in order to have a well balanced athleticism.

If talking about endurance training in terms of running or cycling, then probably you haven’t found an equivalent to GB due to a simple fact, that endurance training is pretty straightforward and there is really no magic or specialized progressions involved, which would make some program stand out from the crowd. A simple google search gives you hundreds of running or cycling specific training plans. These plans typically consist basic endurance work and specific preparation (running drills, speedwork, specific strength exercises, maybe mobility). What makes the programs different from each other is the specific part, however the endurance development is similar everywhere- build your low-intensity mileage and just keep in mind not to ovedo it:) So, just a few low-intensity jogs or bicycle rides here and there should do the trick, no need to overcomplicate here.

The first post in this thread asked about available programs for ’...endurance training (running, rowing or other)...’, meaning basic endurance. However, the rest of the thread is focusing on discussing whether CF is suitable for that. In this context CF, HIIT or intervals are definitely not suitable methods for training basic endurance. These are tools to improve your so-called ’capacity’ (ability to continue working when already fatigued), which is already a component in GB programming anyway, but basic endurance is a completely different type of animal. Cardiovascular system is working in different modes during CF type of training and basic endurance training. If to simplify heavily, then basic endurance training is building primarily your heart muscle (with low intensity and moderate heart rate, your heart muscle is able to perform it’s beats with full contractions and full relaxations). As a result, the whole body becomes more efficient- heart becomes more efficient in pumping more blood into circulation with less beats, bloodvessels and capillaries improve their ability to take all this blood and transport to the muscles, body learns to use more fat-stores for energy instead of glycogen, your muscles learn to relax during activity etc. All this trains your body to do more work with less stress for your body, and due to relatively small stress you can do this type of training more frequently.

The different intervaltrainings (HIIT, Crossfit, Tabata) are a somewhat different type of animals. The stress you are giving your bodies is not sustainable over longer period (thats why interval setup), the exercises are more specific (muscle failure is more likely the bottleneck than stamina), the work is more anaerobic (meaning that primarily glycogen is used for energy and muscles are only partially recovering during the training), heart muscle is working under more stress. This type of training is definitely needed as well, but too much of it might do more harm than benefit and as already said, this type of conditioning is already built into GB program as well.

This was a very helpful post! Thanks a lot @Janno Rillo!

Yeah, we fell out a bit of the tread's main subject.  

You brought a good point @Janno Rillo. Training with GB and doing high intensity workouts can quickly lead to overuse.  As stated,  those kinds of training are good for what we do, but we can't stick with them on the long run.  Are body needs change so each components of the cardiovascular repertoire has to be challenged one way or another.  

So here CF is good by period cardiovascularly talking.

Sorry if I'm repeating what you just said, but it's to clarify your post!  

@Janno Rillo some runners I see regularly in the park are quite skinny folks. Probably they specialize a lot in their sport.

So just for a newbie like me: what should one keep in mind to stay away from overdoing it? Afterall my goal is just to build some basic endurance and not win a marathon.

From my experience whenever I start something new I tend to overdo it. Since realizing this I think I shouldn't fall in the oposite trap and under do it

So I would like some advice what would be a good way to add some endurance into my GB workout.

Don’t worry too much about it- majority of those guys were probably born that way:) Let’s keep in mind that if you see skinny marathon-runners, bulky weight-lifters or short gymnasts, then a good dosage of genetics is involved here as well. Plus elite runners and cyclists are doing specialized strength training in order to keep from bulking up (every extra gram of muscle consumes extra oxygen).

With overdoing the base endurance I meant more the ’too much too soon’ approach. Although the stress from such training is relatively small, if you do too much and not recovering enough, then you might struggle with your next trainings and slowly fatigue builds up.

Regarding the endurance training, I just walk… I do about 15,000 steps daily on average. It's low intensity (for the joints), and it is more as a lifestyle rather than "endurance training" but it for sure helps. Or sometimes I ride bike. No intervals, just ride. The nature (uphill./downhill) gives me the intervals. And it's good for the joints too. Then I do my high intensity stuff with GB or my pole… If I add running or tennis, I can immediately feel that my recovery time (for the joints) is much worse. So I don't add it (anymore)...

Regarding CF (I know the thread kind of slipped this way), but I just want to acknowledge  @Jennifer Marie  or @Jin Liu, you girls are athletes, and you go the smart way about it. 1-on-1 coaching is always a great choice. However, a "normal" person, buying the monthly CF membership, they just do the classes (whatever their personal reason is, lose weight, get fit…) and that's all those peeps who get problems. They don't want to spend more money on 1-on-1 coaching and work on the details, but the details are often the most important. And those people get hurt. It's a majority of them coming into CF. The coach as great as (s)he is can't really overlook the big group of people doing things… and that's my issue with CF. But doing GB, hiring 1-on-1 coaches, get the mobility going first, then dive in CF, that's fine, but  I wonder how many CrossFitters do it this way? 1 out of 20? Probably not even that many. 

There are a few threads on the forum about running and GST with a post from Coach about running between 6 and 15 miles per week plus some 400-meter sprint reps. Coach References the Chinese Gymnastics team for this suggestion but advises to be closer to the 6 miles than the 15 miles per week. There was also a blog post on the Gymnasticbodies site about the positive effects of running that suggested to do the Front-split stretch workout after each run.

I am not very far on my GST journey but I know about endurance training, my suggestion would be to follow this running progression if you are serious about doing some endurance. I would suggest that you get through the Squat progression in Foundation 1 before you worry about getting onto phase 2.

Phase 1 - Couch to 5K

• Follow a couch to 5k programme
• Goal: Run a 5k without stopping

Phase 2 - run 5k 5 times per week (15 miles)

• Start with 5k 3 times per week and then add another day when your body feels ready and then a fifth
• Goal: Race a 5k

Phase 3 - Make a goal - run 5 times per week (this phase could negatively affect your GST progress)

• Make one of the 5 times per week a long run, work up to 1.5 hours (~10 miles)
• Make another one of the 5 times per week a tempo run, work up to 40 mins at tempo pace
• Make a third one of the 5 times per week a sprint or hill session, work up to 10 x 400m
• Goal: Race a 10k (aim for sub 45 minute for a road 10k)

At this stage, you could start to look for some interesting 10k off-road races to take part in while working through the SLS progressions.

Nice, thanks.

@Samuel Tanner do you have the links?

Running 5x per week sounds more like a runners training which is supported by GB, not the other way around. This combo definitely requires some serious dedication, lots of free time and certain level of fitness. The whole idea of training is to stimulate your body to adapt to specific stresses. If you do strength training, then you get stronger, if you run, then you get better at running. If you spend more time on running than doing GB, then most probably your body adapts more to running specifics and less to GB, which in some context might have reverse effect. You have to make a compromise here, because it's not very likely that you make good progress on both.