Ground Rows (RC/PE2) - Mastery is impossible

It's possible, guys. The next time I revisit this mastery, I'll send in some footage (unless @Leo Trinidad beats me to it). If I'm having trouble with rows, I prefer to add in some extra sets of these after the workout, but at a much slower tempo and fewer reps. Milking the eccentric portion during some extra practice is quite useful. Give it a shot!

Thanks Everett will give it a shot!

Was really glad to see some other folks facing 5x15 with some difficulty. I'm almost there it seems, but I'm wondering if I'm cheating by illuminating effort on the negative. The follow along video makes it seem like they're not wasting energy on the negatives. Any thoughts. I'll be submitting some form shortly. 

Best way to go is to submit a form check, Caleb! Once we have some details about your current schedule and a video we can provide you with more specific advices

Honestly there are several points that bother me with the follow along. Anchorage point of rings seems to be above hips not shoulders which makes it easier, and the ROM makes it look like half reps to me (as I said I want my hand to brush my shoulder to count as a rep), that's why I said I never seen it done before. If follow along is the reference then I got them 5*15, if however the details video from Stroud is the standard, then I don't (the difference in those two is quite big IMO, anchor point above shoulders makes it much harder for me because less leverage right).

Been using slow reps before, with no success (more time under tension does help to an extent but is not sufficient alone, at least not for me but yeah, pulling is a major weakness of mine). I just came to the conclusion that 5*15 w/o rest is highly exercice specific strength endurance work (and thought I believe it's possible to achieve it I believe it's not worth my time, I personally bounce back and forth between 5*9 and 4*12 for months i.e more than 4 months). Anything above those reps/set range is not connective tissue / nervous system adaptation but pure specific endurance work IMO, and what I learn't is strength endurance work as poor carryover into strength (strength however as excellent carryover into strength endurance).

At this point you're better off with a harder variation (going into elevated rows from grounds rows), and I believe coming back to ground rows THEN you would maybe be able to do the 5*15 mastery (I did that with PUs and pullups and it always worked, gonna try with rows), which is obviously not in accord with the programming advised but that's my personal take on it. Key here is to still get decently good at one variation for volume before moving so as to avoid injury by letting time to the body for adaptation (I believe tendons start changing 3 months in compared to muscle which only take from 6 to 8 weeks). 

But again, if the follow along vid' is enough then I'm all good. Still interested on getting the opinion of senior trainees on coaches on my idea of it though (that's why I'm posting in the first place!). Good luck w/ training @ all

Hi Paul, to me is very interesting what you said. Specially the idea that if you master it you wont carry over due to being exercise specific..

I have been 6 months at 5x6 reps, but started doing the extra sets and so 2 months ago so I have yet to see.

how long did you take to reach 5x9?

Hello Felipe, I've been able to do 5*9 from the get-go with one minute rest between each sets (it's not my first time doing the program, I just came back after a long break due to frustration). You will carry over to rows, even to pull ups to an extent, sorry for the bad wording. As a matter of fact elevated rows are to thank for me being able to do 4*9 / 5*9 on my first try, I can say for certain it is (it even helped me with pullups, I could do sets of 5 L-sit pullups in a set before training rows and I can do 8 now although forms deteriorate).

What I meant is that you are going to get much more carryover into strength endurance work from pure strength work than the other way around, specifically when you reach very high volume on easier variations. I would say strength work might give you 70% carryover into strength endurance when the other way around would be only 30% at best? (those are numbers pulled out of my butt though, I don't know those ratios for sure). But the higher you train into the same variation with volume, the less return you get from it when it comes to pure strength (diminishing returns from volume work into strength). So elevated rows helped me get better at pullups, but working my ground rows made me MUCH better at elevated* rows (which aren't challenging at all now, I do sets of 20/30reps with normal 1/1/1 tempo to "finish" myself after ground rows).

Just did UB this morning. For Ground Rows (and HBP PE2), it's been the same PE since last September. I train UB twice a week (W-Sa). Even on the odd week where I only do it once (extra rest), nothing changes. Same # of sets and reps. No question my physique has improved and I feel stronger. But for RC PE2, it's 4 sets of 9 with the last couple of reps not technically correct. I then do another 3 sets of 6 reps. Five sets of 15 proper reps seems light years away. For HBP PE2, it's 4 sets of 15, followed by 3 more sets of 7 or 8. A bit more progress here, with 5x15 within reach. Given that there are 26 or so progressions in each module, I'll be approaching 70 when I finally reach the end (59 now)  

With so many of us parked on PE2 in both HBP and RC for eons, might it be time to consider a re-arrangement of the curriculum? There ain't a lot of motivation doing more of same for months -- approaching a year -- at a time. And I agree with Paul. While I know Everett can bang out 5x15 til the cows come home, I really wonder how many who have progressed from here can do these to true mastery. 

While I agree with you I don't think lowering the asked volume more would be beneficial. People already tend to lower things by themselves so, what I want to be sure of is which is THE standard (follow along video, or exercise details video?). I personally chose to approach rows as a completely different progression all together and made my own thing based on what is in the program, and keep working on them along pull ups (although on different days), since as I said before I think those are two very different body mechanics (I really think rows and pullups are best trained together instead of one after the other tbh, same for pushups/dips and planche lean variations, together works best for me).

In fact I was disappointed (with the time I spent on them) to discover that hinge rows were now a mere 5*5 exercise (I will keep them at least a 5*10 personally because they address such major deficiencies and are super beneficial overall IMO). I do understand that the no rest high volume is to force nervous adaptation but yeah, since such advanced nervous adaptation is likely to be highly exercise specific I've just chosen to alter the program a bit to fit my needs and what (I believe) is the correct approach for those needs (in regard to my progress or lack thereof! :p). HBP2 is more or less fine for me btw (I say more or less because I chose to take ~1' rest between sets which is not supposed to be), as said previously I keep working my PUs/rows/PPPs alongside the rest because I believe progress can be made w/o injury if I keep building volume with the basics alongside advanced moves provided those advanced moves are build upon an already significant basics base anyway.

Nice going sir, best wishes for a good health and your progression!

14 hours ago, Felipe Garcia Rosa said:

I have been 6 months at 5x6 reps, but started doing the extra sets and so 2 months ago so I have yet to see.

how long did you take to reach 5x9?

I have been on RC/PE2 for 10.5 months. I am on 5x9r now. I stopped being in a hurry to move on somewhere, because I feel like each workout, I am connecting with some "new" muscles in the back— sort of better and stronger feeling. I don't think I would be able easily jump on 4x12r, but I feel a great connection with my back muscles during my 5x9r, so I am just enjoying that. Maybe soon I will "dare" to try 4x12r  :-) 

Hi Suzanna,

I feel the same, but there is like a wall between 5x6 and 5x7 for me. I started adding additional 6 rep sets with same speed and form, but taking as much rest as necessary to do that. Will comment how it goes in a few months.

I think the problem is assuming that you could finish F1 within 1.5 years (at least for me). I deeply hope to move faster once I master PE2 .

Also was just looking at your footnotes and its interesting how you are very low on RC and HBP progressions relative to the others. Shows there is something about those 2 which I didn't notice since I am very low at all progressions.

Thanks for your answer!

Hey Paul. I'm not saying the number of sets and reps should be changed. What doesn't make sense to me is that RC has 27 progressions. For many of us to spend so much time on the second progression (only 25 to go!), the end seems so far. Might there be a reorganisation of the exercises that allows us to not be stuck on the same workout for months on end... with different progressions to better prepare us for 5x15 Ground Rows. I know the RC curriculum was changed a year or so ago as Hinge Rows were the major sticking point. We seem to have traded one sticking point for another. Regardless, I'll keep plugging away with Ground Rows, working on leaving the prairie (a really long plateau).

The mechanics of RC pe 1, 2 and 3 are the same. So we ll feel like working in the same exercise for a very long time. So a way to go if one want to see the progress, is working in rows 1.5, that means setting your rings half the way between pe 1 and 2. Another way to work that i considered s working on pe 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and so on. Once you master pe 1 you can lower the rings just 5 centimeter, and start on step 7 4x12. When you reach step 9, again you lower the rings 5 centimetres. I m not doing it, because i don t want to be training near 15 reps for so long, hahaha, but i wish someone try and tell us how it goes.

12 hours ago, Antonio Alías Montoya said:

The mechanics of RC pe 1, 2 and 3 are the same. So we ll feel like working in the same exercise for a very long time. So a way to go if one want to see the progress, is working in rows 1.5, that means setting your rings half the way between pe 1 and 2. Another way to work that i considered s working on pe 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and so on. Once you master pe 1 you can lower the rings just 5 centimeter, and start on step 7 4x12. When you reach step 9, again you lower the rings 5 centimetres. I m not doing it, because i don t want to be training near 15 reps for so long, hahaha, but i wish someone try and tell us how it goes.

Yep I agree. I think there is a big jump up in difficulty between pe1 and 2 so going half way between 1 and 2 would make more sense before going to ground rows. That is how o train my clients anyway. 

I love that Suzanna! That is a perfect attitude. I admit I get caught up in "hurry up and master this" so I can get to the bigger, better moves. I'm going to keep this in mind when next I do rows. Listen to my back, feel the muscles working in ways they wouldn't have not so long ago. Thank you!

On 8/16/2017 at 0:31 PM, Suzanna McGee said:

I have been on RC/PE2 for 10.5 months. I am on 5x9r now. I stopped being in a hurry to move on somewhere, because I feel like each workout, I am connecting with some "new" muscles in the back— sort of better and stronger feeling. I don't think I would be able easily jump on 4x12r, but I feel a great connection with my back muscles during my 5x9r, so I am just enjoying that. Maybe soon I will "dare" to try 4x12r  :-) 

I love that Suzanna! That is a perfect attitude. I admit I get caught up in "hurry up and master this" so I can get to the bigger, better moves. I'm going to keep this in mind when next I do rows. Listen to my back, feel the muscles working in ways they wouldn't have not so long ago. Thank you!

As I also have been stuck in RC/PE2 for 8 months (still some, but little progress) I try to be less hard on myself, to “just keep at it“  with good faith, and most importantly, to celebrate all the tiny little bits of progress I am making in the other exercises and stretches to stay motivated. 

For example I recently progressed to sPL/PE5 (planche lean), an exercise I really enjoy doing because of its (at least for me) difficult technique. The rest will likely take care of itself. I am here for years to come either way, so no reason at all to be in a hurry!

Well the whole point of rows is to get better at activating your traps for pulling moves (I think?), which is a major problem for pretty much anyone (I did long years of rock climbing and completely shrugging at the top of all my pulls, shoulders to the ears like a boss, which literally destroyed my shoulder and pectoral girdle as well, even leading to sternal dislocation of 2 ribs for me), it's definitely something that takes a long time to address specially in grown ups I would guess, even more so if you took the habit of pulling with poor body mechanics as a kid like myself, and 150% necessary to address ASAP seeing how bad this kind of imbalance can get.

Totally agreeing with you on this Florian, it's really a personal matter to find strategies that allow you to keep going at it (while avoiding injuries). It's good to see we're not alone and to read about everyone's way of dealing with it, wishing good efforts to everyone in overcoming the row mastery. Ob

I have been stuck with 5 sets of 9 reps of RC PE2 (step 6) for 6 months as well. The tempo is not a problem; I am even doing a wider range of motion than the guys on the follow-along video by doing more pronounced scapula protractions at the bottom of the movement with even more internal rotation. I am struggling with the last two-three reps of the 4th and 5th sets as if it were an endurance issue. No issues with the tempo even with a wider ROM. Meanwhile, during that same period of 6 moths, my legless rope climb imaged pulp strength both proved significantly.

To break through the plato (assuming the technique is correct), are you suggesting I add one more RC PE2 block at the "opposite end" of the week? I was also thinking about doing one ultra high intensity low rep block like 3-5 sets of 2-3 reps tucked front lever pull-ups at the "opposite end" of the week?...

Thanks a lot guys!!!!!!

"imaged pulp strength" = "and pull up strength" :-)

sorry for the typo!

Hello Everyone,

I appreciate your efforts, but many of you are VASTLY over thinking these.  They are simply rows.  Nothing less.  Nothing more.  Sometimes you simply have to embrace the suck.  Get 'em done and move on.

Case in point, I guarantee if I was there overseeing your training; you would complete a good many more reps than you are currently.  The key is to find ways to motivate yourself to work past the discomfort of the lactic acid.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

34 minutes ago, Andrey Kruglykhin said:

I have been stuck with 5 sets of 9 reps of RC PE2 (step 6) for 6 months as well. The tempo is not a problem; I am even doing a wider range of motion than the guys on the follow-along video by doing more pronounced scapula protractions at the bottom of the movement with even more internal rotation. I am struggling with the last two-three reps of the 4th and 5th sets as if it were an endurance issue. No issues with the tempo even with a wider ROM. Meanwhile, during that same period of 6 moths, my legless rope climb imaged pulp strength both proved significantly.

 

This hits on something I've been thinking as I've followed this thread. One factor that's easy to overlook is how subtle changes you make as your form and ROM improve can slowly scale up the difficulty without adding reps. So you *feel* stalled even though you're still making good progress. 

For me, retracting the scaps at the bottom of the RC/PE2 reps adds quite a bit of difficulty. That's a subtle change, and it's something you might not do when you first begin doing the exercise. As you refine your form, your reps stay the same while your muscles continue to strengthen and adapt.

I've personally seen a lot of carryover from rows to pull-ups and rope climbs, which makes it easier to stick with it through the plateaus.

How big a part does bad thoracic back mobility play in all this?

It just seems natural that if you have tight pecs and shoulders, with a hunched forward posture, you need to work extra hard to reach the top position in the row. Working against your body so to say. Doing standard pull-ups you get away with this to much higher degree. And it is obvious that many of us find rows suprisingly hard, in relation to pull-ups. Many of us also suffer from bad upper back mobility and bad posture. So if you are used to doing pull-ups and consider yourself fairly strong, could improved mobility be the key to better progress rather just focus on strength/endurance? 

3 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

  The key is to find ways to motivate yourself to work past the discomfort of the lactic acid.

Hi Coach,

That's key for me. could you explain that with more depth?

When I reach the 7th rep my biceps burn and I stop/let go the rings, but if someone would be there pushing me I would do 1 more feeling my biceps burning a lot.

so far I didnt want to reach that point in any exercise as I thought that would be counterproductive, but what you say makes me reconsider how I approach strength..

Coach, Josh, Thomas, Thank you very much - I completely buy into all you said!!!

17 hours ago, Josh Earl said:

This hits on something I've been thinking as I've followed this thread. One factor that's easy to overlook is how subtle changes you make as your form and ROM improve can slowly scale up the difficulty without adding reps. So you *feel* stalled even though you're still making good progress. 

For me, retracting the scaps at the bottom of the RC/PE2 reps adds quite a bit of difficulty. That's a subtle change, and it's something you might not do when you first begin doing the exercise. As you refine your form, your reps stay the same while your muscles continue to strengthen and adapt.

I've personally seen a lot of carryover from rows to pull-ups and rope climbs, which makes it easier to stick with it through the plateaus.

 

16 hours ago, Thomas Nordman said:

How big a part does bad thoracic back mobility play in all this?

It just seems natural that if you have tight pecs and shoulders, with a hunched forward posture, you need to work extra hard to reach the top position in the row. Working against your body so to say. Doing standard pull-ups you get away with this to much higher degree. And it is obvious that many of us find rows suprisingly hard, in relation to pull-ups. Many of us also suffer from bad upper back mobility and bad posture. So if you are used to doing pull-ups and consider yourself fairly strong, could improved mobility be the key to better progress rather just focus on strength/endurance? 

17 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Everyone,

I appreciate your efforts, but many of you are VASTLY over thinking these.  They are simply rows.  Nothing less.  Nothing more.  Sometimes you simply have to embrace the suck.  Get 'em done and move on.

Case in point, I guarantee if I was there overseeing your training; you would complete a good many more reps than you are currently.  The key is to find ways to motivate yourself to work past the discomfort of the lactic acid.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer