Diving back in...HS mobility mastery? Other clarification as well.

I'm starting up again.  New site looks much improved.  I'm a bit confused as to how to set up the workouts (I have F1 and HS1).  If anyone has advice here, please lay it on me.  My real confusion is on the HS, it is hard to see what mastery, especially of the mobility actually is.  Can someone pass along some advice?

For what it is worth, I find the mobility (dislocates) VERY, VERY hard.  I'm not even sure how much I can progress.  I'm older, bigger, and have some pretty funky shoulders.  However, I can hold a 60 second freestanding handstand.

Thanks in advance.

1. Read, with the aim to comprehend, everything you have access to. If and when you have questions... read what you have access to. There is a lot of presented information and a great deal of questions you may have are already answered in the course material.

2. Browse around the course portal to find out what "Tools" you have.

3. On days you do not have a workout watch the course related videos to find and discover details you might have missed previously.

4. If you questions about your form you can: A. Compare your own previously recorded videos to the course videos. B. Submit your video for review through the course portal for a detailed analyse of your form by one of Coach Sommer's staff.  And or. C. Post a "form check" in the appropriate "Form Check" subforum for multiple people to review and give their thoughtful responses on.

Regarding your handstand ability, the gymnastic handstand is much different than the more common "Banana" handstand. If dislocates are difficult for you. You are not holding the gymnastic handstand at all.

Hi Patrick,

The mastery standards are generally demonstrated in the course videos (although occasionally some forget that most of us are human and make exceptional ROM look effortless  ). If you have a specific element you are unsure about, or would like feedback on how your mobility is tracking, feel free to take a video and put it up here

Thank you both for your help.  I appreciate it and will take it to heart.  As to my HS, it is not a banana HS.  I have been working with a very accomplished coach who is quite particular about my line.  It is far from perfect, that is true. 

If the required mobility is to be able to do the dislocates at shoulder width, I'm afraid that this will never happen for me.  I really am curious if bigger folks are able to do this.  If there are some videos, I'd love to see them.  In fact, the gymnasts in the videos aren't even doing the dislocates that narrow.

5 hours ago, Patrick Johnston said:

If the required mobility is to be able to do the dislocates at shoulder width, I'm afraid that this will never happen for me.  I really am curious if bigger folks are able to do this.  If there are some videos, I'd love to see them.  In fact, the gymnasts in the videos aren't even doing the dislocates that narrow.

The distance between our hands should be at least 1.5x shoulder width or our shoulder width plus a hand span.

Here is one of many threads on the subject of the width for over grip dislocates.
Here is the thread Coach Sommer started on Dislocates

To quote Coach Sommer, with emphasis added where needed, as seen in this post... 

Quote

The goal is to continue to move the hands closer together during the shoulder dislocates as the shoulder girdle flexibility improves. Ultimately you should shoot for a minimum hands width of one and a half shoulders (the width of your shoulder times 1.5), or less.

On 12/13/2016 at 2:27 AM, Patrick Johnston said:

If the required mobility is to be able to do the dislocates at shoulder width, I'm afraid that this will never happen for me.  I really am curious if bigger folks are able to do this.  If there are some videos, I'd love to see them.  In fact, the gymnasts in the videos aren't even doing the dislocates that narrow.

HI Patrick i'm actually able to perform the dislocate at almost shoulder grips and i've showed this in person to Coach Sommer, if the problem it is how many years i've spent on it...then soo much. but i want o clarify that in order to improve the dislocates I suggest the TB stretch series to release pec minor and shoulder capsule with bridge development. the ore you can move the arm in flexion without the necessity to rotate into dislocate the more the capsule it is released.

you are welcome to post your handstand form.

did you mastered the previous im's? can you shoe them to me please?

Alessandro, if I understand you correctly, you are wondering if I had mastered the mobility in earlier progressions, no?  If so, I will try to go back and look.  Once I do, I will try to post a video.  Where would you like that?  That will take a couple of days however.  Thank you for your help!!  Very much appreciated.

17 hours ago, Patrick Johnston said:

Alessandro, if I understand you correctly, you are wondering if I had mastered the mobility in earlier progressions, no?  If so, I will try to go back and look.  Once I do, I will try to post a video.  Where would you like that?  That will take a couple of days however.  Thank you for your help!!  Very much appreciated.

In this thread is fine

21 hours ago, Patrick Johnston said:

Alessandro, if I understand you correctly, you are wondering if I had mastered the mobility in earlier progressions, no?  If so, I will try to go back and look.  Once I do, I will try to post a video.  Where would you like that?  That will take a couple of days however.  Thank you for your help!!  Very much appreciated.

hi Patrick this is my dislocate. I can do that immediately after the general warm up.

https://youtu.be/VDL1h4D_9QA

Alessandro, this is quite impressive.  Thank you for posting.  I am nowhere near this.  But I believe the following:  1) It would be great to have this mobility.  2)  It is hard for me to believe that this degree of mobility is necessary for a handstand.  3) I think that I am much bigger than you are and I KNOW I am much older than you are (LOL).  In any case, I wonder if such mobility is even possible for someone like me.

This is not to say that I won't be working these...I will.  Again, thank you for your help!!

2 minutes ago, Patrick Johnston said:

But I believe the following:  1) It would be great to have this mobility.  2)  It is hard for me to believe that this degree of mobility is necessary for a handstand.  3) I think that I am much bigger than you are and I KNOW I am much older than you are (LOL).  In any case, I wonder if such mobility is even possible for someone like me.

Why are you even putting all these limitations on yourself, Patrick? If Alessandro (who is an adult, not a kid) can do it, we (you and I) can do it… What your mind can believe, your body can achieve  let's do it! I am also very impressed with Alessandros mobility, and I want it too!

I began my journey with mobility back in 2011 after my first seminar. and i'm still working on it. I wasn't born flexible, bu the opposite, trust me. for the rest i'm 172 cm for 85 kg. and yes people are still impressed by my mobility because my body mass, it should not be a limiting factor. if you do not have structural bones limitations you should not have any type pf problem about reaching this type of mobility.

Suzanna, I appreciate your sentiments.  It is not as if I do not think such mobility is something for which we can strive, I do.  I wonder about taking 10 years to get there before I am even on my hands in the program is all.  Again, I have a fairly solid HS already.  The line could use some work, but it has gotten exceedingly better over time with no dislocates and no improvement from when I first did dislocates (before ever getting on my hands) to now.

Alessandro, again, thank you very much for your input.  I am a good deal bigger than you are.  But at your size, or any size for that matter, your dislocates look awesome to me!  As to having any structural limitations, I think I very well may have some.  Many years of martial arts and weightlifting (stupid!) have left me with plenty of injuries and hinderances (I don't want to use the term "limitations").  In any case, I will continue to work the dislocates, but I'm not going to stop my handstands.  They are just too much fun!!

From my personal experience  having a efficient handstand without proper mobility it is very hard. but this is not the most relevant point. during the previous 6 years I've improved month over months my handstand and now i'm pretty satisfied BUT..yes there is a BUT. 

6 years ago I'had learned a specific pattern and handstand form which was built up on my previous mobility deficits. only recently that I had substantial mobility improvements I can feel that my shoulders can move deeper into flexion without compensation. the problem was that my brain were used to perform handstand with my previous mobility deficits. the results it is a continuous change of feeling and sensation which requires hours and week in order to adjust the correct form basing on the new mobility. let us assume that in order to open my shoulder i'm applying 50 newton of strength with my traps, then now I need only 20 N. being attached to previous sensations it is completely wrong if you need to adjust them now.

The focus of this discussion reflects exactly how young kids learn. no restriction then perfect sensation immediately.

adults: restrictions then adapt to wrong sensation then decrease restriction then the work begin again from zero. work on technical movements where restrictions affect the form is not the best way to work. absolutely no. With my personal clients I decided that, if they have a bad handstand ,they are no longer allowed to play with it until the mobility deficits are restored.

I'm also having a hard time with the dislocates. While most of my stretches are progressing slowly but steadily there's not much going on with the dislocates. I've been doing the TB stretch series diligently since they came out and I'm doing the dislocates 6 times a week in my warmup. @Alessandro Mainente, you've written about structural bone limitations - what would you recommend to do to find out if that's what is affecting my lack of progress?

Well structural bone limitations can be easily checked by a physio who can see the acromion form and eventually your spine form. but actually the spine problem leads to less result on the bridge rather than the dislocates. I suggest you to spend some time on the shoulders extension of TB but instead of working  only with the goal of extension try to completely externally rotate the upper arm so that the elbows face the ceiling an open the chest to the ceiling also, this variation target the pec minor a lot. what i've found with some clients it is that a good release through the extension with external rotation gives some cm of improvements on both hands. the pec minor it is actually the biggest problem for dislocates.

I'll give this pec minor stretch a try... thanks!

Alessandro, I'm having a tough time picturing the pec minor stretch.  Could you post a video?  I'm sure this will help me as well.

Whe you perform shoulder extension the inner elbow tend to look downward, if you externally rotate yhe upper arm the inner elbow will move to the side and the to the ceiling.

I have similar questions as others. Is this similar to what you are describing @Alessandro Mainente? I tried it on stall bars.

Exactly like that, it can be done also on the floor, keep the shoulder depressed and the sternum high, breath in the upper chest.

I see that Ryan is externally rotating his shoulders.  Is that the point here?

No the shoulder does nothing, it cannot rotate.

the upper arm it is rotating, coupled with scapulae retraction and depression.