Powerlifting and gymnastics

hey guys im new to the forum and i want to introduce myselfe first:

im a 18 year old german athlete

i started gymnastics when i was a very young boy but somehow stopped putting enaugh wirk into it

nowadays im more into powerlifting

i ve read all the articels on the homepage and saw written that great strength athletes like john grimek used gymnastic erxercises to develope their strength

does anyone have any information about how they did so?

i wanted to do just the same and thought about the following workout schedule:

monday: heavy close grip bench press 5x5

handstandpushups 3x3

bulgarian dips 3x3

bulgarian flys 3x3

back lever 3x3

planches (working to get a planche pushup one day - so right now i would do frog stand etc for like 120 seconds)

wrist pushups 2x10

wednesday: heavy squats 5x5

front lever 3x3

pullups+dips on the rings (dont know what they re called in english) 3x3 ( would probably start with negatives cause i quite dont get them)

one arme pullups negatives 3x3

pullups 2xmax

iron cross negatives 3x3

thursday: heavy bench press 5x5

handstandpushups 3x3

bulgarian dips 3x3

bulgarian flys 3x3

back lever 3x3

planches (working to get a planche pushup one day - so right now i would do frog stand etc for like 120 seconds)

wrist pushups 2x10

saturday: heavy deadlifts 5x5

front lever 3x3

pullups+dips on the rings (dont know what they re called in english) 3x3 ( would probably start with negatives cause i quite dont get them)

one arme pullups negatives 3x3

pullups 2xmax

iron cross negatives 3x3

on all pullup variations i have to keep my legs straight in front of me to avoid touching the ground

i might do some grip work with a handgripper or extra abs work like weighted crunches from times to times

what do you thing about this first idea of a workout schedule combining heavy lifting and gymnastics?

plz give me some constructive feedback cause im pretty knew to the topic of using gymnastics to develope strength

Front levers and back levers are for time, not reps. Perhaps you are think of cranks?This thread is relevant to your questions.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2989

If you have a 120 second frog stance you should progress to the next movement which would be advance frog stance.

the advanced frog stand would be Tuck Planches and so on

i would follow the articel on the main page

and conerning the levers

i have to start with negatives so i count for reps first:D

later for time

you only list 1 leg exercise: Squats 5x5 - we could maybe argue Deadlift will work your legs as well since it does. But still if you want to progress on the Squat and Deadlift you're going to need to do more leg work

i never had problems with my leg development and im able to improve my squat and deadlift without any additional work

i can squat and deadlift above 450 lbs

in addition to that i do sprint work 2 times a week

you may find yourself making less, slower or little progress on gymnastic elements doing them after heavy bench...

well i will think about doing the gymnastic part only and stop the weighttraining

but what do you think about the schedule in general?

is the choice of exercises well done?

is the order right?

How much do you weigh? With a squat above 450, few people on this board seem stronger than you. Perhaps you should be the one giving advice instead of asking for it. I'm guessing that you don't weight TOO much, otherwise gymnastics probably wouldn't appeal to you.

Some comments/questions:

(1) You're leg volume is very low for your abilities. Are you currently trying to improve your squat and deadlift numbers? If so, have you always improved your numbers with such low volume no assistance exercises?

(2) You're upper body volume is too high, IMO. It looks more like the program of a bodybuilder than a strength athlete in terms of upper body volume.

(3) The only way to make this volume possibly work for you is too put in lighter/faster reps in replacement for some of these exercises. All parameters you have are grinding, heavy reps, which will burn you out.

(4) Is this supposed to be a steady state cycle? If not, you can't do this program without fluctuating the volume and/or intensity up and down, which you have not indicated you are going to do.

trianglechoke7 said:

How much do you weigh? With a squat above 450, few people on this board seem stronger than you. Perhaps you should be the one giving advice instead of asking for it. I'm guessing that you don't weight TOO much, otherwise gymnastics probably wouldn't appeal to you.

Some comments/questions:

(1) You're leg volume is very low for your abilities. Are you currently trying to improve your squat and deadlift numbers? If so, have you always improved your numbers with such low volume no assistance exercises?

(2) You're upper body volume is too high, IMO. It looks more like the program of a bodybuilder than a strength athlete in terms of upper body volume.

(3) The only way to make this volume possibly work for you is too put in lighter/faster reps in replacement for some of these exercises. All parameters you have are grinding, heavy reps, which will burn you out.

(4) Is this supposed to be a steady state cycle? If not, you can't do this program without fluctuating the volume and/or intensity up and down, which you have not indicated you are going to do.

i weigh about 220lbs

im just about to start involving gymnastic exercises in my workout and didnt really star yet ( cause i didnt get my rings yet)

i used to train powerlifting style and used to do one heavy main exercise (like the squat) and 3 assisting erxercises to gain my strength

this is not supposed to be a cycle - i wanted to do it in old fashion what means to me finishing all sets and reps of a single exercise and move on to the next one

what do you mean by putting lighter/faster reps in replacement for some of these exercises? i dont know anything else than grinding heavy reps

What sort of split were you using? Were you doing upper or lower body 4 days per week? Right now you have yourself doing upper body 4 days per week with 4 upper body exercises with multiple sets (all heavy sets and no speed work no less) per session plus static holds.

I'd be interested if you posted some of your previous powerlifting programs.

trianglechoke7 said:

What sort of split were you using? Were you doing upper or lower body 4 days per week? Right now you have yourself doing upper body 4 days per week with 4 upper body exercises with multiple sets (all heavy sets and no speed work no less) per session plus static holds.

I'd be interested if you posted some of your previous powerlifting programs.

i thought about a push/pull split and as you see i would do each of two different workouts two times a week - thought the volume would be fitting because i considered it as low intense compared to the heavy work with free weights which i always used to do

my former powerlifting program is very simple:

day 1

bench press 5x5

puased bench press 2x8

incline bench press 2x8

bottom press 2x8

dips 1x max

some rear delt work - nothing serious

day 2

squats 5x5

box squats 2x8

good mornings 2x8

heavy abs and lower back work

day 3

close grip bench press 5x5

floorpress 2x8

barbell curls 2x8

military press 2x8

some rear delt work

day 4

deadlifts 5x5

rows 2x8

chinups 2x max

some ab work

the main exercises never change - i might change the ohter exercises from times to times

BigSig91 said:

trianglechoke7 said:

What sort of split were you using? Were you doing upper or lower body 4 days per week? Right now you have yourself doing upper body 4 days per week with 4 upper body exercises with multiple sets (all heavy sets and no speed work no less) per session plus static holds.

I'd be interested if you posted some of your previous powerlifting programs.

i thought about a push/pull split and as you see i would do each of two different workouts two times a week - thought the volume would be fitting because i considered it as low intense compared to the heavy work with free weights which i always used to do

my former powerlifting program is very simple:

day 1

bench press 5x5

puased bench press 2x8

incline bench press 2x8

bottom press 2x8

dips 1x max

some rear delt work - nothing serious

day 2

squats 5x5

box squats 2x8

good mornings 2x8

heavy abs and lower back work

day 3

close grip bench press 5x5

floorpress 2x8

barbell curls 2x8

military press 2x8

some rear delt work

day 4

deadlifts 5x5

rows 2x8

chinups 2x max

some ab work

the main exercises never change - i might change the ohter exercises from times to times

I like your powerlifting program much more than your gymnastics program. Transforming your powelifting program into gymnastics would be much better:

day 1

bench press 5x5

ring row variation 3x8

incline bench press 2x8

gymnastics curl variation 2x8

dips 1x max

external rotation work

day 2

squats 5x5

box squats 2x8

good mornings 2x8

heavy abs and lower back work

day 3

close grip bench press 5x5

pullup variation 3x8

handstand pushups variation 2x8

multi-planar pulling variation 2x8

external rotation work

day 4

deadlifts 5x5

some ab work & low back work

I just quickly substituted some things, so I'm not saying that this is anything perfect, but it's closer to what I would say is a good program combining powerlifting and gymnastics. Mess around with the sets and reps as you flucuate up and down in a cycle and it would much better than your original. Of course, statics still need to be added in.

That's my opinion. If anyone disagrees, I'm all ears.

trianglechoke7 said:

BigSig91 said:

trianglechoke7 said:

What sort of split were you using? Were you doing upper or lower body 4 days per week? Right now you have yourself doing upper body 4 days per week with 4 upper body exercises with multiple sets (all heavy sets and no speed work no less) per session plus static holds.

I'd be interested if you posted some of your previous powerlifting programs.

i thought about a push/pull split and as you see i would do each of two different workouts two times a week - thought the volume would be fitting because i considered it as low intense compared to the heavy work with free weights which i always used to do

my former powerlifting program is very simple:

day 1

bench press 5x5

puased bench press 2x8

incline bench press 2x8

bottom press 2x8

dips 1x max

some rear delt work - nothing serious

day 2

squats 5x5

box squats 2x8

good mornings 2x8

heavy abs and lower back work

day 3

close grip bench press 5x5

floorpress 2x8

barbell curls 2x8

military press 2x8

some rear delt work

day 4

deadlifts 5x5

rows 2x8

chinups 2x max

some ab work

the main exercises never change - i might change the ohter exercises from times to times

I like your powerlifting program much more than your gymnastics program. Transforming your powelifting program into gymnastics would be much better:

day 1

bench press 5x5

ring row variation 3x8

incline bench press 2x8

gymnastics curl variation 2x8

dips 1x max

external rotation work

day 2

squats 5x5

box squats 2x8

good mornings 2x8

heavy abs and lower back work

day 3

close grip bench press 5x5

pullup variation 3x8

handstand pushups variation 2x8

multi-planar pulling variation 2x8

external rotation work

day 4

deadlifts 5x5

some ab work & low back work

I just quickly substituted some things, so I'm not saying that this is anything perfect, but it's closer to what I would say is a good program combining powerlifting and gymnastics. Mess around with the sets and reps as you flucuate up and down in a cycle and it would much better than your original. Of course, statics still need to be added in.

That's my opinion. If anyone disagrees, I'm all ears.

thx for the advice

but what is a gymnastic curl variation?

and what does multi-planar pulling variation mean?

my current aim is to learn the gymnastic elements like a planche pushup and a iron cross and increasing (or at least maintaining my strength)

i think i will have to loose some weight to be able to do an iron cross or a planche pushup but im pretty confident to get them because i never had any problems gaining strength

for example : i can hold a straight side lever for up to 28 seconds without ever really training it

Their exercises from the book, which I hope you ordered along with your rings.

trianglechoke7 said:

Their exercises from the book, which I hope you ordered along with your rings.

puh...

i didnt order the book

but i think it might be a usefull investigation so i might get myself the book soon

BigSig91 said:

and conerning the levers

i have to start with negatives so i count for reps first:D

later for time

Front and back levers are static exercises, so there is no negative. If it's a front lever pull, front pull, or skin the cat, then you would have negatives. All static exercises are held for time.

mark said:

BigSig91 said:

and conerning the levers

i have to start with negatives so i count for reps first:D

later for time

Front and back levers are static exercises, so there is no negative. If it's a front lever pull, front pull, or skin the cat, then you would have negatives. All static exercises are held for time.

But if you can't hold a tuck front lever, you can use negatives to build strength to hold the position.

I would be wary of working iron cross progressions if you can't hold a tuck back lever or front lever. But you probably can strengthwise, just a matter of skill.

BigSig91 said:

i never had problems with my leg development and im able to improve my squat and deadlift without any additional work

i can squat and deadlift above 450 lbs

in addition to that i do sprint work 2 times a week

I'm 6'2"(190cm or so) 230lbs and I lift heavy as well as practice gymnastics. I only squat once every 8-10 days, same for deadlifts. My squat isn't as good as yours, but my deadlift is. I only do bottom position squats, starting from parallel in the power rack, so right now I'm starting at 285 lbs. I'm going up in weight slowly, but each time I'm able to add at least 5 lbs for 5 reps. So I understand how this works better than the guys here who don't lift heavy. Keep squatting and deadlifting, they are great. You may find you also benefit more from benching only once a week, and doing pseudo planche pushups and other planche work for at least most of the bench portion of your second benching day.

Working your statics 2-3x a week is good too, you don't really need more than that, and with as much lifting as you do, you don't want to overtrain.

If you want to train iron cross, read the sticky about straight arm strength progression. It starts with ring supports and goes through swinging supports, 45 degree RTO supports, etc. Make sure you go slow and be a little conservative. You can hurt your elbows if you push too hard too fast. You are young, don't screw up your best developmental years. Trust me, I know from experience. Take your time, assume you'll have a few seconds of at least close to a good Iron Cross in 3 years. Take the time, do everything with straight arms, increase your straight arm strength to where you are doing at least 30-40 seconds of RTO support with NO STRAIN. That means your elbows feel the same as at 5 seconds into it. THEN maybe, start inching out into the iron cross, just a little at a time. An inch or two every month or two. Take your time. Be smart. Don't get hurt.

For the iron cross it's also important to spend time in the iron cross position but assisted ofcourse.

thanks a lot guys

your comments were very helpfull

especially the one of slizzardman

by the way - i think i should mention my max bench : its about 320 lbs

but hell ... i just cant find a sticky called straight arm strength progression - even not if i search for it

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1988#p12726

There's the link for Elbow prep!

I am also from Germay, 6"2 (190cm), 200 ilb. and I combine powerlifting and BWEs. Having a bodybuilding/fitness background I am still an (high) intermediate in powerlifting (341/280,5/440 ilb. = 155Kg/127,5Kg/200Kg) and a beginner in gymnastics.

I do 4 total body sessions per week. I use a minimalistic approach with a high frequency and no assistance exercises for the lower body. I also strongly recommend to seperate bench work and other upper body pressing exercises. I think that is the most important point because benching powerlifting style builds tremendous fatique in almost every muscle of the upper body!

Here´s the basic template I have successfully been using for a couple of weeks:

Day 1 and Day 3 / Monday and Thursday

Heavy BWE work, like HeSPU negatives, Muscle up, Backlever, holds for one arm chin ups bottom and top...

(Back) Squat

Day 2 and Day 4 / Tuesday and Friday

Light BWE work, like Handstand holds and pseudo planche push ups, Fontlever holds, uneven Pull ups

Bench press

(Frontsquats on day 4)

Deadlift