Convict Conditioning Gateway to Building the Gymnastic Body

[John Sapinoso]

Here's a little inspiration.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4094365/a ... nd_pushup/

I've also been playing around and trying to do kipping one arm headstand pushups / gatherings as a progression.

[Joshua Naterman]

THat's the video I'm talking about. the best he does is the two-three finger assist. The lever reps he does are weak as hell. I'm not sayig that to knock his efforts, because he's working hard. However - it was both deceitful and unprofessional to not specifically point out in that book that this guy, nor anyone else, has ever been seen to do a proper OAHeSPU.

The three finger spot isn't very hard, I'm sorry to say, in the grand scheme of things. Hell, he isn't even going down to the floor!It is outlandishly stupid to be overly impressed by what that video shows, and it pisses me off that there are people who believe this guy can actually do the OAHeSPU, not to mention a true OAHSPU, when he's literally just as far away from it as I am, and probably not nearly as close as Ido, for example, though I'm not sure that Ido's specifically working towards that. It is important to me that people are honest and forthcoming about their abilities, and when they are showcased in a position, if it is just a pose then they are nothing but a rotten liar unless they make sure it's noted that what is shown is beyond their abilities, or that of anyone they have seen if such is the case.

[Cole Dano]

There's at least a couple of those kind of errors in CC, where the exercise as described is very hard if not impossible and the picture are clearly modeled makes sense if Jim took them himself though. It all comes down to is Paul Wade real and did John du Cane in good faith believe that he really did the things he claims in the book. If so i have no issue of them being modeled by Jim. If it really is mythical though then not so cool.

I was allot more on board with CC until Coach Sommers rang in now i'm wondering what's up too.

Thing is even with out the OAHSPU its a got some great stuff, and for beginners i do think the stage 1-3 exercises are for the most part pretty great, i use them at my studio all the time, and have found benefit personally.

I dug around and found Jim Bathurst's own statement on CC which he made when rumors were flying fast and furious.

Hello everyone, this is Jim from BeastSkills.com. Figure I'd weigh in on this issue and clear up any questions. I didn't think this would raise such a firestorm.

First, thanks to petersante, Rand86, and anyone else sticking up for me on this one. No, we are not all the same person. Truth be told, I don't post up on any forum (T-nation, CrossFit, Dragondoor, etc) that much these days. I'm much too busy working and training. I wouldn't have even seen this thread if someone hadn't brought it to my attention.

As to the matter of selling out and/or working for Dragondoor. I was contacted by Paul Wade in August of last year about supplying pictures for this project. I was hesitant at first because it sounded like something I wanted to do myself (publish a book on bodyweight exercises). If you ask Paul, I gave him the third degree about the project, and rights/legality of the use of my pictures. Finally, I agreed to help when I found out that Dragondoor was connected to the project. I finally started shooting pictures at the end of January. And yes, I was paid for them. They took a long time to do and there were many reshoots, all of which I did myself. This is as far as my "work" for Dragondoor has gone.

Are there places you can get some of this information for free? Sure! People have mentioned my site and I'm grateful for that. I wrote about the one arm handstand pushup 3 years ago: (search BeastSkills for accomodating resistance and the one arm handstand pushup)

I supplied pictures for this book because I saw it as another resource that could help people. No, I did not write this book and I certainly have different ideas/progressions for various exercises, but this is why I'm not listed as an author.

I don't understand the argument about how I've killed my spirit of free flowing information. BeastSkills is still up and running (and I'm close to unveiling the new site! It will look and run so much better!) This has cost me tons of time and money that I'm not asking back from visitors. As for the seminars - of course I charge for them! As petersante said, they're running about $60-80 a head and I hope to think they're worth it. I don't think this is unreasonable in the slightest.

As for my abilities to do the skills in the book -

My bridging is absolutely terrible. My shoulders at the time of the photo shoot were tight. They've definitely gotten better since then, but my bridging isn't that strong. Paul still used my photos for that section for continuity as my one legged squats, one arm pull-ups, and one arm push-ups are all very strong.

As for the one arm handstand pushup sections, many of the pictures were taken at the top and bottom of the exercise to demonstrate it. Can I do a one arm handstand pushup? No. Can I lower myself? Yes, to a certain success. The picture you see on the cover of the book is about as far as I can lower and hold the position (for a self-timer photo). I start to fall a bit quicker and sloppier from that point. I was picked because Paul believed me to be in better shape than he is right now, as I estimate he's in his 50's now(?)

In the end, I contributed to a project because I respect Dragondoor. Their community helped inspire and support me when I was starting out. Their one arm chin-up articles got me training towards mine. I also met one of the OAC authors, Jack Arnow, and consider him now to be a great friend: (check out my interview with him on the site)

I haven't looked through the book since I got the proof in March, but a freshly printed copy is sitting at my parents which I'm excited to look through this holiday season.

Read the book description, read the reviews, and in the end decide if the book is right for you. In the very least, train hard and start discovering these things yourself. That's half the fun of training.

[Joshua Naterman]

There's at least a couple of those kind of errors in CC, where the exercise as described is very hard if not impossible and the picture are clearly modeled makes sense if Jim took them himself though. It all comes down to is Paul Wade real and did John du Cane in good faith believe that he really did the things he claims in the book. If so i have no issue of them being modeled by Jim. If it really is mythical though then not so cool.

I was allot more on board with CC until Coach Sommers rang in now i'm wondering what's up too.

Thing is even with out the OAHSPU its a got some great stuff, and for beginners i do think the stage 1-3 exercises are for the most part pretty great, i use them at my studio all the time, and have found benefit personally.

I dug around and found Jim Bathurst's own statement on CC which he made when rumors were flying fast and furious.

I don't have any problem with Jim taking the photos, but I have a massive problem with Paul Wade and dragon door for not specifically stating the true conditions of the photo, and the abilities of the model. I do also think that Jim should have been more careful about controlling the context in which his photos were used, and reviewed and given his stamp of approval before allowing them to be used. That destroys their credibility in my eyes. I have to wonder about everything I see in every dragon door publication now, and barring some sort of miracle or great financial need on my part, I won't ever try to publish anything with them. I don't want my name associated with what I personally view as a blatant and intentional distortion, and perhaps fabrication, of the truth behind some of the exercises. Hell, I don't even want to capitalize their name anymore.

[Cole Dano]

I don't have any problem with Jim taking the photos, but I have a massive problem with Paul Wade and dragon door for not specifically stating the true conditions of the photo, and the abilities of the model.

I agree, just not so much as to throw out the baby with the bath water, enough to make sure i'm not drinking the bath water though!

Like Coach says Pavel is a great guy.

Also some of the stuff that Cook & Jones have done is good for professionals.

I think for example Kettlebells from the Ground Up (Turkish Get UP) is a fantastic therapeutic tool. I'm also have some Indian Clubs on the way and am looking forward to their upcoming material on that.

Then the main focus in my professional work is developing healthy, balanced movement patterns in accessible ways. Take your own recent and amazing thread referring to the wall squats. Pardon my presumption, but i'm guessing that you got that from Pavel/Cook/Jones, and its GREAT. Its been around for ever, i remember doing similar stuff in yoga workshops ages ago, wouldn't be surprised if Pilates folks do it too, but DD managed to get a cross over so not just skinny guys and middle age ladies get exposed to this stuff.

Listen to Cook's podcast on the TGU (my favorite quote "if we could just get strength guys on the yoga mat a little bit and the yoga guys in the weight room a little bit everyone would be better")

http://www.dragondoor.com/audio/dvs017.mp3

With DD there is almost always some gimmick aspect though, which is a problem and often leads to folks eventually moving on in frustration at a certain point, so i hear you.

The thing is when you think critically about anything, you will eventually find a hole, the question is what to do with it, is everything worthless? That will take you down a deep philosophical rabbit hole, i've been there and for the most part found that life just isn't perfect and compromises are always made.

I think you'll see when you sit down to write your book, just how difficult it actually is to represent on paper all the ideas and knowledge you have. Then to involve others in helping make that into reality will involve even more compromises, in fact as idealistic as you may want to be, at some point some control may be lost. Its very hard to avoid, the truth is any book, dvd, etc is a best a representation of a truth.

Even here Coach Sommer has used the forum as a way to flesh out his book. You just can't get it all in there hard as you try there will be omissions and errors, room for improvement.

To conclude this already too long post i'll relate a similar experience i had.

For many years i was closely involved with a teacher who made a dvd. In that dvd he goes through a particular practice in a very strong, flowing, seamless way. In fact it looks as if the dvd were made in a single take. I know the guy who shot the video and talked to him about it one day and found out that in fact it was shot over the course of about 3 months and then skillfully edited to look like a single perfect practice. Nowhere was this mentioned! Yeah i felt about like you, though it took me a few years to finally decide to leave the guy and the whole neurotic mess he was helping create. The lack of frankness in the editing of the video basically revealed itself in other dealings later on. We parted with no hard feelings though i just realized this isn't my way.

Now the whole thing has come full cycle and he has lost most of his students in a power struggle with another bigger name teacher who is creating an even more neurotic, borderline cult mess.

I'm very glad i decided to side step the whole thing 5 years back, it all seems absolutely insane to me. But then like Coach Sommer, i choose not to overstate, not to play mind games etc. It means i have a handful of students but a very good reputation. People come to me when the other teachers break them, but thankfully before they've decided to throw the whole thing away.

Though it took me awhile, i'm at peace with what i'm doing, where i'm going and as relates to this post, with the other teachers. I do my thing and let them do theirs, am thankful for what i got from them and thankful for where i'm going now on my own. If tomorrow they did something i though was great i'll gladly take it on board, if not then gladly find from where ever i find inspiration.

Nowadays i just go in to anything realizing that there will be a flaw somewhere, the question is do they require i turn off my own critical thinking to conform if so then thanks but no thanks.

In that regard, Slizz your posts have been a real wealth keep it up! Sorry about the pseudo rant!

[Joshua Naterman]

Then the main focus in my professional work is developing healthy, balanced movement patterns in accessible ways. Take your own recent and amazing thread referring to the wall squats. Pardon my presumption, but i'm guessing that you got that from Pavel/Cook/Jones, and its GREAT. Its been around for ever, i remember doing similar stuff in yoga workshops ages ago, wouldn't be surprised if Pilates folks do it too, but DD managed to get a cross over so not just skinny guys and middle age ladies get exposed to this stuff.

I actually got this from the book Pain Free, by Pete Egoscue. I have no idea who anyone but Pavel is out of that list! It does not surprise me that this aspect of his approach to healing the body is out there in other forms and other forms of physical culture, as I am sure many of the individual parts are. After all, he had to learn from somewhere, and it wasn't all from graduate school!

I respect where you're taking your practice and classes, and I wish more people would do that. Unfortunately that more honest approach never captures the human psyche at first, though I think that has a lot to do with the fantastic stories we are all raised with, and that such things predispose us to believing outlandish claims, since all of our religions are based on claims that are not only unsubstantiated but in most cases simply impractical. My favorite example, by far, is from the Norse religion, with the World Tree, the universe being made from the cow, and the various stories about the Gods and Giants. By FAR my favorite mythology, but if I had grown up believing these things, I'd easily accept similarly fantastic ideas. As you say, after enough frustration people are desperate enough to try something reasonable, and then discover the truth and are happier with their progress.

[Paul Gray]

Wow, I've been looking for this thread for ages now. It's shocking!

Coach, this is going to sound like a real layman's question but do top level gymnasts not try training for this? Surely if coach Mako Sakamoto set a record of 163 full range HSPUs then he must have been the best candidate to attempt a OAHeSPU supported against a wall corner? Do you know if he did attempt this?

I just thought it would logically be possible as the OAC is possible....but this topic excites me as it seems like the holy grail of gymnastics haha, pushing the boundaries of human physical limitations.

Maybe I should ask paul wade for a refund for my convict conditioning book? :wink:

[Razz]

I just thought it would logically be possible as the OAC is possible....but this topic excites me as it seems like the holy grail of gymnastics haha, pushing the boundaries of human physical limitations.

A normal HSPU is much harder than a normal chin up.

[ASForum]

I'm coming to this forum with a ... yoga background.

Mr. Brady,

Given your yogic background, are you familiar with this quote, I believe from the Upanishads?

"Two doctors and the death of the patient is assured; two teachers and the student is as good as dead; two wives makes the husband a dead man."

Or to paraphrase Mr. Mark Rippetoe: Two coaches, no wonder the athlete is confused.

Do yourself a favor and commit to the GB WODs. Also, commit to 5-6x a week ashtanga vinyasa with a quality teacher. Both of these will begin to address your strength deficiencies.

best,

jason

Do you do the same / balance it with the BtGB training? I am starting to do a blend as well.

[whitemonkey]

I guess these don't count?

One-arm Elbow Lever Press HS?

MA5XskutHrA

I participated in a teleseminar where jim from beast skills was discussing some stuff, and he touched on the subject of paul wade's one arm handstand pushups. When he met paul he asked about them and paul told him that what he had actually done was very similar to that kipping press from elbow lever. He said that because that was such a technical skill he decided to put something in his book that was more of a strength based skill that theoretically could be achieved and that he could not actually do the claimed one arm handstand pushups.

[Cole Dano]

I participated in a teleseminar where jim from beast skills was discussing some stuff, and he touched on the subject of paul wade's one arm handstand pushups. When he met paul he asked about them and paul told him that what he had actually done was very similar to that kipping press from elbow lever. He said that because that was such a technical skill he decided to put something in his book that was more of a strength based skill that theoretically could be achieved and that he could not actually do the claimed one arm handstand pushups.

WOW! That sheds alot of light on the mystery!

You don't happen to have a reference to the teleseminar or something to confirm this. Having read the book what you say really makes a lot of sense, and in effect confirms that the program in the book is a stylized version of the truth.

When it came out i was really excited about the book, but after working with it for a little while it was obvious that it was forced to fit into a certain format, which created some discrepancies with the overall programing.

This thread keeps popping up from time to time and all i can say as the OP is i'm sorry i started it.

[Joshua Naterman]

I participated in a teleseminar where jim from beast skills was discussing some stuff, and he touched on the subject of paul wade's one arm handstand pushups. When he met paul he asked about them and paul told him that what he had actually done was very similar to that kipping press from elbow lever. He said that because that was such a technical skill he decided to put something in his book that was more of a strength based skill that theoretically could be achieved and that he could not actually do the claimed one arm handstand pushups.

What a douchebag Paul is for doing that, and Dragon Door for allowing it, and Jim for allowing himself to be a part of that. I would have told him to either point out, IN THE RELEVANT TEXT SECTION, that this skill is theoretical only, or to find a new model if he refused that. It makes me sick when someone who is supposed to be respectable lets him/her self be a part of something like this.

[ChenZhen]

Some guy on DD claims to have achieved it (with video):

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/kettlebel ... ushup.html

IMO it's cheating, like it is equivalent to those crappy Rocky-style OAPs

[Cole Dano]

I saw that earlier today, and don't get what the excitement is about. His legs on the sides of the wall are doing all the work of providing lateral support which allows him to lean WAY over and then lever back up. Notice that the elbow hardly bends! IMVHO Jims earlier assisted effort was much closer than this.

I mean its a nice accomplishment, i don't mean to take that away, its just a stretch to call it a true one hander.

I'd like to see how strong his regular HSPU is though. If its not good then it would most likely have been a better use of time to keep working that and not worry about the fancy stuff.

Well i can't wait to see what Slizz is going to say.....

[Richard Duelley]

I wont be happy until the one arm HSPU is free standing! :wink:

[heinrich]

Mercer wrote:

I've recently achieved a 1 arm handstand pushup

really?? He hardly achieves a 45 degree bent (like Mr brady said before).

Rory Hutchinson-Boulter wrote:

Congratulations, you've made a lot of naysayers look very foolish

No (my opinion).

Since it is a KB-forum I would be more impressed if he showed us a strict military press with a 48 kg kettlebell. They'd better leave the bodyweight stuff to gymnasts :?

[Cole Dano]

Dragon Door just released a little addendum to CC, written by Paul Wade. Its obviously heavily edited but not a bad read all in all.

The part i'd like to mention is that Wade mentions Coach Sommer and Building the Gymnastic Body by name and compliments Coach Sommer saying

'I was amazed by Coach Sommer’s knowledge

and the efficiency of his approach.

Well done Paul!

If anyone is interested in the link to the pdf PM me.

[Joshua Naterman]

HAHAHA I'm glad they got shamed into doing that much, at least. I put up a pretty scathing review of the book. I hope they got a bunch of flak from others as well!

[Cole Dano]

HAHAHA I'm glad they got shamed into doing that much, at least. I put up a pretty scathing review of the book. I hope they got a bunch of flak from others as well!

There's been some heated conversations on the forum.

I still don't think its that bad, but i can make allowances, the addendum helps too.

The detractors aren't hurting sales though, CC has been Dragon Doors best selling book for a while now.

[Joshua Naterman]

It should be, it's the perfect concept. Everyone wants to know about prison fitness, an awful lot of people leave jail much bigger than they went in. It's also just a sexy concept in general, from a marketing and human interest perspective. I get to learn about this secret and controversial hidden fitness society? I'm in! That was a smart book concept.

[img]

Personally, I have yet to see a book that matches BtGB in terms of overall sense of direction, practical progressions and clarity. Pavel is good, but BtGB wins in terms of long-term applicability. That said, I do like Pavel's emphasis on focused work as opposed to intellectual drivel that has become fashionable these days. Convict Conditioning is, to me, moderately useful, and BtGB leaves it in the dust.

Whichever approach one decides to choose, it's the single-minded focus that builds the body and gets results, we often choose a given approach because we trust it, it's as simple as that. Intellectualizing only dilutes the focus, I think.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's true, once you pick a path you will often get side-tracked if you try and over-analyze it. The nice thing about BtGB is that it is a very complete program that takes care of the whole body and keeps everything balanced, so there really isn't a need for additional work unless you have other interests.

That doesn't mean I don't believe there is room for complimentary work, because there clearly is, but BtGB can easily hold its own as an incredibly powerful strength and conditioning system that works for pretty much all sports.

[CalisthenicGod]

Read the whole thread, agree with most of what Slizzardman says, especially about the fraudulent part of DragonDoor and the OAHSPU.

Recently dropped the CC program switched over to GB program I made myself. I can't stand doing a program where one of the "Master Steps" is only theoretical, and most likely impossible (if top gymnasts that Coach mentions can't even do them, I don't know anyone else that can), also the Strict One-Arm Push-ups outlined in the book is also unlikely, as I have yet to seen one done in perfect form without wide, splayed legs and twisting torsos. The only good progressions in the book are the Squat, Pull-up and Bridging series. The Leg Raise series is really nothing too special, Coach has more efficient and challenging core conditioning series.

Not saying CC is bad and you shouldn't do it, it's just that there are some flaws in the book, overall it is a good book and I learned a lot from it, but it is necessary to note the flaws.

[Cole Dano]

Welcome to the other side.

CC is an interesting stylized introduction to the art of bodyweight strength, but i'm sure its obvious to you now that its only the tip of the iceberg. Thankfully Paul acknowledges that in his addendum.

[ashita]

The author claims to have done over a dozen freestanding one hand handstand pushups '...a feat he's never seen replicated, even by Olympic gymnasts'...

Video of the claimed dozen one arm handstand pushups, by either the author or one of his students, would put all doubts to rest.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I'am able to do OAHSPU with a 20 lbs weighted vest, i can do 2 reps, but sorry i d'ont want to record it because then you will be too jealous :shock: :roll:

I hate people like this, if you don't have a video then stay quiet...

BTW the Free OAHeSPU/OAHSPU is one of the thing i want the more to do in my life in addition to one arm planche push up, and one arm bower...

I have already a lot of ideas, the exercices that i'll experiment, and what exercices will help me and what i need to master first...

I can tell for now that HS/HSPU training won't be enough, i'm excited to start the training, but i wait to be SS4 first and then i start, in like 2 years from now on.

I will write a book, another of my book, about it when i'll master it because i will

Of course i'm totally aware that a feat like this takes a LOOOOOOONG time, but i'll prove that it is not impossible.

Good luck to everyone who will train for it and for those who are currently training if they are some ^^