Coming off an Elbow Injury

Hey Ryan 

bro I am so happy for you .this is awesome news to hear . Fingers crossed this is the start of some real progress now for you and, more importantly,  pain free . 

31 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

-  Has the intensity of this "twinge" gone down at all over the weeks? 

Yes Ryan it definitely has and doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to and like I say it's mainly on one arm too where as it used to be both . Very very rarely when I try and extend/lock  the worse arm of the two it can sometimes feel like it needs to crack is the best way of describing And just before it does it usually feels more of a discomfort than pain) . Most of the time  doing the tricep skull crushers makes this "crack" happen and it's a great feeling lol 

as far as chasing the pump I think I'll increase the reps then straight away, like you say as I Definitely  feel I could do more

38 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

Once you can do around 60 total repetitions of an exercise with a specific weight you are good to go ahead and bump the weight u

Do you mean 60 reps in one set ryan? 

41 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

Also are you doing any of the GB upper body exercises currently? If so how are they feeling and which ones are you doing? 

Since your advice I'm continuing like you suggested to stay on pe2 ... so for example on HBP I've come off pe3 and am back on pe2 (push ups keeping the repS and sets the same even tho I feel I could do more as I never experience any pain doing these ) and am keeping it at 4x9

Same with RC I'm on pe2 keeping reps at 4x9 the same . The very slightest discomfort 2 weeks  or so ago when i started on  this progression but that seems to have subsided thankfully 

I haven't started back on scap push ups yet as these along with long handstand holds were the biggest actual burning/pain for me back before I started talking to you . I've re set my setting to the first progression of these but as i say haven't started them again yet 

I also don't do the table hold mobility for front lever for the same reason in that it's a straight arm hold and you said to keep away from this for time  being 

thabks again you legend :-)

leigh 

Wouldn't believe it Ryan but Annoyingly I've just finished my foundation training for tonight and the left (better of the two)elbow "twinged" as I was getting into the ground row - I went from above the ring to below it with too much weight on that side so (it was like the muscle up transition but in reverse ) . Just a little reminder I have a long road ahead in case I was getting too excited :-/

onwards and upwards lol 

4 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Yes Ryan it definitely has and doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to and like I say it's mainly on one arm too where as it used to be both . Very very rarely when I try and extend/lock  the worse arm of the two it can sometimes feel like it needs to crack is the best way of describing And just before it does it usually feels more of a discomfort than pain) . Most of the time  doing the tricep skull crushers makes this "crack" happen and it's a great feeling lol 

 

- this is good news! 

4 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Do you mean 60 reps in one set ryan? 

 

- no no, 60 total reps. So if you did 4 sets of 15 this would put you right at 60 total reps with x weight. 

4 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

 

Since your advice I'm continuing like you suggested to stay on pe2 ... so for example on HBP I've come off pe3 and am back on pe2 (push ups keeping the repS and sets the same even tho I feel I could do more as I never experience any pain doing these ) and am keeping it at 4x9

Same with RC I'm on pe2 keeping reps at 4x9 the same . The very slightest discomfort 2 weeks  or so ago when i started on  this progression but that seems to have subsided thankfully 

I haven't started back on scap push ups yet as these along with long handstand holds were the biggest actual burning/pain for me back before I started talking to you . I've re set my setting to the first progression of these but as i say haven't started them again yet 

I also don't do the table hold mobility for front lever for the same reason in that it's a straight arm hold and you said to keep away from this for time  being 

 

- This all seems fine to me and good preventative measures are being taken. You are probably at the point were you can start progressing bi weekly with the volume (sets and reps) but I would remain at the current PE's you are working on. 

1 hour ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Wouldn't believe it Ryan but Annoyingly I've just finished my foundation training for tonight and the left (better of the two)elbow "twinged" as I was getting into the ground row - I went from above the ring to below it with too much weight on that side so (it was like the muscle up transition but in reverse ) . Just a little reminder I have a long road ahead in case I was getting too excited :-/

 

- This isnt the end of the world, but do take note and try to find a different way to get below the rings without doing a reverse muscle up. if you were to continue to ignore the twinges then you would start to back pedal in progress. 

Keep at it! 

Thanks man 

Just to clarify  that reverse muscle up transition where I felt the twinge was with feet on the ground i wasn't trying to do the negative ha ha . But yeah definitely be more mindful of coming down equally now and not one sided .

ok bro all understood . I'll keep current Reps and sets the same on my foundation for a couple more weeks  and immediately start increasing the reps a little on my rehab work 

thanks again mate 

leigh 

1 hour ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Thanks man 

Just to clarify  that reverse muscle up transition where I felt the twinge was with feet on the ground i wasn't trying to do the negative ha ha . But yeah definitely be more mindful of coming down equally now and not one sided .

 

Yea be mindful, and sometimes weird twinges happen, nothin to get to concerned about. 

Its the twinges that happen each and every rep and begin to intensify throughout the set followed by very prominent pain at the end of the set that you want to be worried about.

Keep on keepin on  

@Leigh Kettle

Another lesson for the both of us. I got cocky the other day and tried to play around with straight arm scap shrugs as things were feeling really good. Well ultimately I  re-tweaked my left elbow. Its been a bit flared up for the past 48hrs, managed to get through todays training with no issues but avoided scap shrugs as I am not ready for that by any means. 

Going to reduce volume on my incline pushups and incline rows from 4x9 to 3x9 for the next week, and lighten the load for both as well and the elbow should be able to return to base line pain free levels. I'll keep you updated. 

just another reminder to progress slow 

Now dont mean to scare you from increasing your volume as we had discussed earlier in this week. I think thats totally appropriate. Error on my part was getting overly excited after being able to do incline pushups with no issues that I wanted to see if I could do scap shrugs on the ground. I had only spent 2 weeks doing incline pushups before I tried this, and the difference in load between a incline set up and hands on the ground is big. Guess you learn from your mistakes. 

Train smart  

- Ryan 

3 hours ago, Ryan Segervall said:

@Leigh Kettle

 

Another lesson for the both of us. I got cocky the other day and tried to play around with straight arm scap shrugs as things were feeling really good. Well ultimately I  re-tweaked my left elbow. Its been a bit flared up for the past 48hrs, managed to get through todays training with no issues but avoided scap shrugs as I am not ready for that by any means. 

Going to reduce volume on my incline pushups and incline rows from 4x9 to 3x9 for the next week, and lighten the load for both as well and the elbow should be able to return to base line pain free levels. I'll keep you updated. 

 

just another reminder to progress slow 

Now dont mean to scare you from increasing your volume as we had discussed earlier in this week. I think thats totally appropriate. Error on my part was getting overly excited after being able to do incline pushups with no issues that I wanted to see if I could do scap shrugs on the ground. I had only spent 2 weeks doing incline pushups before I tried this, and the difference in load between a incline set up and hands on the ground is big. Guess you learn from your mistakes. 

Train smart  

- Ryan 

Oh no sorry to hear this ryan

Like you say going from the incline to straight onto the ground is going to be a big transition especially as scapula shrugs ask for a sustained hold with straight arms . They were always the trigger for me before I started rehabbing them and I'm very reluctant to begin them again and will take your advice and only do so when is right 

Don't let this get you down the biggest teachings come from our mistakes . We can all be blamed for getting too excited too soon but have to keep reminding ourselves not to is the hardest part mentally more than anything 

just a minor setback bro nothing more, chin up 

all the best

leigh 

Hey ryan

how are you man ?

how is the rehab going after your minor setback?

i wanted to check in with you regarding my wrist that I mentioned briefly recently that was causing me a little pain I think coinciding with starting the elbow  rehab wrist exercises 

I think the exercise that started the issue was the pronated wrist eccentric curls 

The pain still hasnt subsided (even at rest I get a small ache in the area directly underneath my thumb side of the wrist )and has resulted in me having to back off on the weight and reduce my reps back to what they originally were . 

Before I dropped the weight back When I did the eccentric and got to about half way down it felt like my wrist would just go weak and almost drop and this is where the most pain was felt . When I say pain it wasn't anything excruciating but enough to know some damage had possible been done . The fact that this pain hasn't gone away even tho I've dropped the weights and reps is starting to make me think it won't unless I stop the wrist work altogether . I've even kept all of my handstand wrist work/reps the same so as to not exacerbate the situation. Back of hand wrist stretch on hs1 warm up is the one that is the most uncomfortable to do. 

what I don't understand is for 3/4 years training in calisthenics, doing all kinds of things (long handstands, dips, wrist push ups to name a few)  before I started gst I never had any wrist pain at all even tho I never did half the wrist prep work I do now . Add to that , There is zero handstand work at all now, or anything even close to what I used to do so it just doesn't make sense that a little wrist pronation exercise would cause me any trouble. Most frustrating . 

I don't want to give up on these altogether  as they are part of my all important elbow rehab so thought I'd ask your advice on what you think I should do 

sorry for the long post ryan

all the best mate 

@Leigh Kettle 

Sorry for the delay, I had a crazy week with school. 

On 3/21/2017 at 4:27 PM, Leigh Kettle said:

Hey ryan

how are you man ?

how is the rehab going after your minor setback?

 

Rehab has been really good over the past couple weeks. Things have calmed down and my days and workouts are pain free for the most part. I would say Im back where I was before the setback which is very relieving. I am yet to try out incline pushups but am incline pressing 30lbs dumbells for 3x9. Gonna wait until 40lbs 3x9 is comfy before I go back to try incline pushups. I would say at this point I am out of the rehab phase and entering the prehab phase and my exercises are more preventative than anything at the moment. Also beginning to incorporate some more intensive pinch grip and rice box training which seems to have been accepted quite well by the elbows. 

In regards to your situation, I'll admit I am a bit puzzled on what may be causing your pain but I can give it my best try help. 

1st thing you can try is doing the full concentric and eccentric portion of the exercise but dont go as far into wrist extension. 

2nd thing that you could try would be to ditch that exercise that is bugging you. Best not to keep punching your hand in the wall when it hurts if you know what I mean. There are other ways you can go about rehabing/strengthening the extensors of the forearm. One that I would recommend you give a try is rice bucket exercises. 

I will post a workout you can do within a couple hours or tomorrow morning 

Sorry I couldn't complete this post. have some matters to attend at the moment but will get back to you as soon as I can

Cheers, 

Ryan Segervall 

Love hearing you doing good bro . It's an amazing feeling for you to finally be able to train injury free .

the way you rehab and the way you've instructed me to do the same is brilliant stuff mate and although some days I feel like nothing is improving I'm confident your methods  will work in the end 

I agree with not to keep doing something that hurts so when I scaled the weight back it feels  ok and there isn't pain so I'm just gonna keep at that at minute . Just weird really like I say that something so simple and relatively weightless would cause me issue. 

In terms of the actual elbows and their injury I get good days and then like yesterday it was quite sore when bent and contracted  . Is so difficult to pin point exactly what aggravates them as there is never pain doing my HBP and rc pe's...

I know from reading and what you say that keeping them moving is beneficial so I am again reluctant to stop any of these pe's for that reason.

Would some doctors tell me to stop anything involving elbows and completely rest them ? Because I've had since October is there now an issue of false  pain signals being sent to brain (have you any experience / knowledge on that) ??

like I say whatever I train I'm always certain that there is no pain and there never is ....but this stab deep inside "both" elbows when contracted and Bent still lingers but maybe it will for a while yet . Different days and different levels of discomfort in both elbows again confuses me . I understand these things take a long time  . When would you say Is a more or less time frame for these symptoms to subside and there be no pain when bent and contracted . Some days there are times when I do this test and there isn't pain I must add. The burning that first got me started on my rehab has never returned but I've obviously never put myself in that position on my straight arms for a long period to test that. I darent .

@Leigh Kettle

Do you get any burning in your hand after the exercises or is it all concentrated in that acute location under the thumb? 

At this point in your recover you have to keep moving it. Load is essential for laying down new tissue in the proper direction. Its a matter of finding that right amount that is beneficial for your recovery.  

 And the rehab phase isnt always linear. Somedays things will feel better than others, but in general you should hopefully be noticing a improvement over time. 

Things I would recommend. 

1) Incorporate some rice work 2-3x a week. ( https://peregrinepoise.com/wrist-rehabilitation-a-professional-guide-to-strengthening-and-conditioning-your-wrists/ ) This link does a pretty good job explaining it. I would do each exercise variant for time, 30s for each exercise untill this becomes too easy. Then you can increase the time to 45s ect. ect. I would do no more than 2 rounds of these exercises during your sessions. 

- Do the exercises shown in Exercise 1 video and the exercise shown at the end of Exercise 3 video 

2) when training PE's Try to avoid going to angles of max elbow flexion (where you are getting that stabbing) for now. If you can with your dumbell work try to go into these ranges of motion with a weight light enough that doesnt cause any pain above a (4/10) Mild dull aches or mild discomfort is okay and can be beneficial. Like I said previously it is a tricky balance of finding the right load. Some of the PT's i've had the luxury of talking with generally abide by that rule (pain above 4/10 generally doing more harm than good). 

Also contrast showers can be a good way of flushing the tissue out. if you wake up in the morning and things are especially soar I would hop in the shower and alternate 1min hot 1min as cold as your shower will get, for a total of 5-6min. The cold portion of the shower is going to be unpleasant to begin with with, just try to focus on deep and slow breathing in slow and out. 

Just a heads up I am going to be out in the back country hiking/camping for the next week so will be unable to respond. wil be back by next sunday. 

I really hope these changes start to make some beneficial changes. 

And again if it continues to further aggravate the symptoms or make it worse dumb that particular exercise and find an alternative. It is imperative that you keep trying to find something that you can do that doesn't make things worse. Either regress or find another exercise that you  can do that will have the same effect. 

Chin Up & talk soon

Ryan Segervall

Hey Ryan bro how are you man?

honestly just appreciate you replying mate hope you have a great time this week. 

On 26/03/2017 at 2:04 PM, Ryan Segervall said:

Do you get any burning in your hand after the exercises or is it all concentrated in that acute location under the thumb? 

There is no burning ryan, it's concentrated in the thumb area mainly 

On 26/03/2017 at 2:04 PM, Ryan Segervall said:

2) when training PE's Try to avoid going to angles of max elbow flexion (where you are getting that stabbing) for now

I never get the stabbing when doing any of the pe's at both ends of range of motion . Only literally when I bend my arm quickly during the day or if it is bent and I squeeze  my bicep then twist my wrist I can feel "minor" pain (def less than 4/10) and it goes away straight away. That said this definitely seems to be less and less of an occurrence so I'm sure I'm making progress 

ive regressed the weight of my dumbbell for now and my wrist is already feeling better 

will speak to you when you return bro look forward to chatting again 

@Leigh Kettle

Hello hello, 

I am finally back from my trip. How are things feeling?

Hey Ryan how are you bro how was your trip?

yeah not feeling too bad thank you . 

Im starting with the rice bucket exercises you showed me on the link and for now I've dropped the weight on prone wrist curls and have regressed my hs1 wrist work right back to the beginning. 

Incidentally should I do the rice bucket stuff "instead" of the  wrist exercises You gave me originally because of the soreness I got with the curls  or as well as , ??

during the day and maybe only half a dozen times during the day I will get a very slight feeling that my elbows are not one hundred percent . However it's very difficult to say whether that's just cos I've worked them or it's an actual injury pain. That said I'm never experiencing anything over 4 / 10 at anytime during exercise or other. So Hopefully this bodes well . 

2 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Hey Ryan how are you bro how was your trip?

Trip

trip was awesome! spent a week camping out in the desert with my buddies. Now back to reality 

2 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Im starting with the rice bucket exercises you showed me on the link and for now I've dropped the weight on prone wrist curls and have regressed my hs1 wrist work right back to the beginning. 

Incidentally should I do the rice bucket stuff "instead" of the  wrist exercises You gave me originally because of the soreness I got with the curls  or as well as , ??

 

- try eliminating the wrist curls for now and begin incorporating rice work instead. See how this goes

- Was the HS1 work irritating it? if possible try changing 1 variable at a time. Dump the wrist curls but keep HS1 work were it was to see if you can still do them without aggravating the tissue. 

2 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

 

during the day and maybe only half a dozen times during the day I will get a very slight feeling that my elbows are not one hundred percent . However it's very difficult to say whether that's just cos I've worked them or it's an actual injury pain. That said I'm never experiencing anything over 4 / 10 at anytime during exercise or other. So Hopefully this bodes well . 

 

 

- And this seems normative. Nothing to worry about, I still get twinges or a little pain now and then but nothing to be concerned about. as time goes on these instances should be reducing in frequency and intensity

Thanks ryan

glad you had a good time and it's great to have a break 

ill take all this on board and see how things go. 

The rice bucket is deceptively hard ha ha 

i find when my fists are fully submerged I can't open my hands fully so I Compensate by lifting them out the bucket a little so the very top of my hand is out the rice . Is this acceptable  to begin with ? 

Love doing them tho the burn is great .

as for the bicep and triceps drills I've been struggling to get the "pump" that you said I should strive for (currently on 2 x 25 reps. I was thinking of upping the weight and dropping down the reps back to 2 x 15 for now  or should I increase the sets/reps to the full  60 with the current weight first. I know you mentioned this but this pump is evading me with these 2 exercises 

1. opening hand

2. crushing the rice

3. ulnar and radial deviation

4. wrist flexion and extension 

5. crush and twist pronation (shown at end)

6. crush and twist supination (shown at end)

7. fast open

8. fast close

9. thumb across palm

10. thumb away from palm 

11. paint brush

-depth of the rice will vary on intensity, I normally submerge my hand further into the rice bucket (near the bottom usually) than shown in this video, however for the 7-11 I am typically more at the surface of the bucket cause I am week in those areas. 

- For all movements that involve closing the palm try squeezing the rice as hard as possible. 

- give this routine a try (instead of the one on the link I gave you last week) , it will target just about every muscle group in the forearm and is very effective at getting the blood in the forearm and strengthening weak links. 

start with 3time per week 30s each variation then progress in 15s increments bi weekly. 

week1-2: 30s ea

week3- 4: 45s ea

week5-7: 60s ea

* if this is too tough then just give yourself an extra week or two before progressing the time

3 minutes ago, Leigh Kettle said:

The rice bucket is deceptively hard ha ha 

i find when my fists are fully submerged I can't open my hands fully so I Compensate by lifting them out the bucket a little so the very top of my hand is out the rice . Is this acceptable  to begin with ? 

 

- totally okay, pick a depth that is appropriate. I would recommend to use a depth that allows you to do the movement fully before lifting your hand up from the rice 

4 minutes ago, Leigh Kettle said:

 

as for the bicep and triceps drills I've been struggling to get the "pump" that you said I should strive for (currently on 2 x 25 reps. I was thinking of upping the weight and dropping down the reps back to 2 x 15 for now  or should I increase the sets/reps to the full  60 with the current weight first. I know you mentioned this but this pump is evading me with these 2 exercises 

 

- Bump the weight up and go back down to 2-3(sets)x15 

OR 

- do 4-5(sets)x15 with the same weight. 

Wow thanks bro 

who knew there were that many variations to do , awesome ......

ok mate I'll do these from now on for the foreseeable and report back how I'm getting on 

49 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

Was the HS1 work irritating it? if possible try changing 1 variable at a time. Dump the wrist curls but keep HS1 work were it was to see if you can still do them without aggravating the tissue. 

The wrist wall push ups were irritating a little yes so I've regressed right back. I was noticing on the back of hand wall wrist push up that the affected wrist would camber (so the full back of  hand wasn't on the wall )I feel  this was a compensation due to the pain  so this was another reason I regressed until I could do it correctly . 

35 minutes ago, Ryan Segervall said:

start with 3time per week 30s each variation then progress in 15s increments bi weekly. 

 

Is this just one round ryan ? 

Just now, Leigh Kettle said:

Is this just one round ryan ? 

Yes just one round starting with exercise 1 all the way through 11 without rest. I do one hand at a time but if you have a big enough bucket your could do both. 

3 minutes ago, Leigh Kettle said:

The wrist wall push ups were irritating a little yes so I've regressed right back. I was noticing on the back of hand wall wrist push up that the affected wrist would camber (so the full back of  hand wasn't on the wall )I feel  this was a compensation due to the pain  so this was another reason I regressed until I could do it correctly . 

- sounds like you made the smart move

Keep me posted!

Excellent this is another gold post ryan thanks so much once again 

how's things with you especially after resting for a week? Did you do any training while away? 

4 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Excellent this is another gold post ryan thanks so much once again 

 

- your more than welcome! Always happy to help 

4 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

 

how's things with you especially after resting for a week? Did you do any training while away? 

- And the only type of training I did while away was wood chopping with an axe, and I did a lot of chopping (cut about 5 very thick trees down for fire wood ). And surprisingly enough the elbows held up just fine with no complications. Today I just went and did my upper body workout and was able to do incline pushups 4x6 and incline rows 4x9 with no real issues. Maybe a little discomfort on the pushups but around the 1 to 2/10 on the discomfort scale so nothing to really be concerned with.

In short I am out of the rough and hope to never ever return hahaha. Just gotta stay smart and patient 

I am certain you will get there too! Keep cranking away at it week by week and the rest will take care of itself 

Hey ryan

how are you mate?

justbwondered how you getting on with your training 

All the best man

leigh 

@Leigh Kettle training is going awesome. dialing in my nutrition and recovery and been seeing good progress each and every week! 

How have the elbows been after our adjustment? any improvements? 

wish all the best, 

Ryan