Post-Thrive Question

So, it's been a few months now that I've finished Thrive and the habits are rather habitual (minus the occasional rough night of sleep, but that's life), and I'm wondering about supplements. Are there any that you absolutely need? I read a lot of contradictory information both in journals and on the internet. It's hard to decipher what's legitimate amongst that which is just purely marketing. Some say the quality of vegetables and fruits have lower mineral counts, so we need certain supplements (like a multivitamin), and others say that due to the excess stress and pollutants in the environment and in our lives we need more antioxidants. Yet, further some say that that's all nonsense and to just try to get antioxidants from our foods as they're most bioavailable that way (for example, eating turmeric versus taking concentrated curcumin+black pepper capsules), and that lifestyle changes are the best way to go about implementing and incorporating optimal health. While a healthy lifestyle is obviously essential to a healthy life, part me still wants to buy into the notion that supplementation is a key ingredient. Amidst all of this confusion, my other concern is that by buying these supplements -- which I try to vet in my purchasing process (using labdoor.com and examine.com) -- that I might just be making my urine really expensive. Any insights @Jeff Serven? Is blood work the only way to figure any of this out? Are supplements even necessary?

Cheers.

Good thoughts and questions. 

If you ask in the last lesson I will give some more specific recommendations(don't get your hopes up) but I will keep it generic here. 

Yes, I too agree that supplements are great and largely helpful. However there is a lot to know before they become useful. A common one people are aware of is fish oil. Reports of rancid fish oil or low potency as well if it is in triglyceride form or not - all stuff you need to know before you can make a intelligent decision. In your Turmeric example its almost funny how little curcumin is absorbed - So taking Turmeric or curcumin and then testing blood levels is almost abysmal without one of the curcumins like BCM-95. Again if you don't know you cant intelligently shop for curcumin. Further if you are taking curcumin you should be taking about 6-8 other things before it, in terms of bang for your buck. 

It is true that the mineral counts of modern day vegetables are lower. Thats just the way it is. Its not a doomsday thing, its just the modern world. The book Guns, Germs and Steel shows that Europeans without the alleles immune to the plague did not make it. It purged out all the folks without these specific immunity traits. In modern day - gluten, low mineral vegetables are things we need to adapt to. We can supplement but we cant change the soil quality. 

A bit of a ramble but hopefully this helps.

Haha, it does. Jared Diamond is an excellent author. I read his book while I was still living in Africa. In any event, you echoed my sentiments but didn't give me the definite answer I was hoping for (though you alluded to me not getting too hopeful). 

Do you know of any resources that would help get to where I could take the next steps towards figuring out the bang for your bucks supplements? Or those that I would need vs. the ones in which I am already sufficient? Or should I just keep on and address my daily Thrive habits in the hopes of adapting to better health? 

42 minutes ago, Jeff Serven said:

The book Guns, Germs and Steel shows that Europeans without the alleles immune to the plague did not make it. It purged out all the folks without these specific immunity traits. In modern day - gluten, low mineral vegetables are things we need to adapt to.

Cool... so we can start eating bread and shitty vegetables!

Ahahahahahahahahah.

Seriously, that was an informative post, Jeff, and that book sound bad-ass guys.

Regarding rancid fish oil and low potency, anyone reading up on WPAF over the years and their research may have tried fermented cod liver oil from green pasture.

...was not excited to read this lately:

http://www.thefamilythathealstogether.com/weston-price-foundation-vindicated-kaayla-daniel-fermented-cod-liver-oil-controversy/

I hope this account is false, and if so, please delete this post as WPAF has a lot going for them regarding insight to a counter culture of the typical western diet.

Also anyone putting themselves out there and gaining success regarding health, foods, or fitness recommendations seems like they eventually are going to receive scrutiny and criticism. (Soap box)

It's easy to ask (like Jeff said in the past), do we really know what we know?

Think I'll get that Guns, Germs, and Steel book.

29 minutes ago, Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

Haha, it does. Jared Diamond is an excellent author. I read his book while I was still living in Africa. In any event, you echoed my sentiments but didn't give me the definite answer I was hoping for (though you alluded to me not getting too hopeful). 

Do you know of any resources that would help get to where I could take the next steps towards figuring out the bang for your bucks supplements? Or those that I would need vs. the ones in which I am already sufficient? Or should I just keep on and address my daily Thrive habits in the hopes of adapting to better health? 

My understanding is that Thrive 2 will include a lot about supplementation, so Jeff is probably holding back specific answers until that program is released.

Yeah, I just try to have some sardines in extra virgin olive oil every day. Maybe that may make my mercury levels rise? I dunno. Thus far, no one seems to have it figured out, beyond what's hidden behind the curtain. Since as @Jeff Serven pointed out if you don't know you can't make intelligent decisions. I go back-and-forth between taking numerous supplements (zinc, multivitamin, probiotic, fish oil, curcumin, vitamin D, and magnesium) to taking none at all (except for some herbal teas or oil of oregano/echinacea extract if I'm feeling a cold coming on). Hard to not feel like I'm giving myself expensive urine. I would hope these sorts of questions might be able to be elucidated in Thrive 2.0, but I might just be doing too much of that hoping Jeff mentioned that I should try to avoid, haha.

3 minutes ago, Julia Quigley said:

My understanding is that Thrive 2 will include a lot about supplementation, so Jeff is probably holding back specific answers until that program is released.

My thoughts exactly, ha. You posted just as I did. I sure hope so (re: Thrive 2's program material), I'm tired of doling out cash rather blindly in the hopes of a magic elixir.

10 hours ago, Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

Yeah, I just try to have some sardines in extra virgin olive oil every day. Maybe that may make my mercury levels rise? 

Off-topic but to jump on this:

• given the massive frauds occurring in the realms of olive oil (even organic extra virgin), I've personally switched to Sardines in water only, as I'm dubious of the oil quality (I'm saying I'm right though!)
• to get all the fats from sardines, I keep the water in which they're canned and eat it. Otherwise, a lot of fats goes away in the water
• with sardines, you're safe on mercury for sure (they're really low on the food chain)

Just my practices though, and nothing I know for sure is the right thing to do (except no mercury in sardines, this one is sure if you avoid asian sources of fish) :-)

on the sardine and or tuna in olive oil I have noticed that it is not olive oil but a blend. so I've gone to water too. can says in olive oil, ingredients say olive oil 5% or some rubbish and palm oil or canola oil.

I have pretty well cut out supplements. when it comes down to it, it seems to make two tenths of a bee's dick difference and costs a bucket load. That is it can decrease/increase likelihood of xyz by +-5% when the overall likelihood of xyz is 0.00000001%. perhaps I'm just a bit cynical. But I am yet to find anything that makes a genuine difference in the day to day compared with actually eating properly.

I have only maintained vit d for the moment but given we are moving into the Aust spring summer now and I'll be seeing more sunshine on my rides in and out of work and at lunch I'll drop that one too.

@Julien Le Nestour RE: olive oil - from what I know about this Australia has the highest standards in the world for olive oil. Locally produced olive oils are almost never rancid. We don't produce the enormous amounts of oil surplus to domestic consumption that Spain produces.

For what it's worth, I don't think you should worry about this too much if you're buying a decent local brand. If you're still unsure, buy a brand that sells out quite often like Mt Zero Organic olive oil.

17 hours ago, Jared Birbeck said:

on the sardine and or tuna in olive oil I have noticed that it is not olive oil but a blend. so I've gone to water too. can says in olive oil, ingredients say olive oil 5% or some rubbish and palm oil or canola oil.

I have pretty well cut out supplements. when it comes down to it, it seems to make two tenths of a bee's dick difference and costs a bucket load. That is it can decrease/increase likelihood of xyz by +-5% when the overall likelihood of xyz is 0.00000001%. perhaps I'm just a bit cynical. But I am yet to find anything that makes a genuine difference in the day to day compared with actually eating properly.

I have only maintained vit d for the moment but given we are moving into the Aust spring summer now and I'll be seeing more sunshine on my rides in and out of work and at lunch I'll drop that one too.

This echoes my thoughts to a T (I just often find myself going back and forth over which supplements might be better, when I really should cut them out).

Ladies and Gents, jumping in late on this one (and admittedly still reading through the Thrive forum archives), but curious if any of you have tried targeted supplements for purposes of repletion.

Any of you taken for example a blood test like SpectraCell which would provide analysis of deficiencies (and borderline areas) in vitamins and minerals? Seems like some literature on this speaks to repletion process taking up to 6 months of consistent, targeted supplementation where needed. 

I can relate to the comments in this thread on how chaotic preventative supplementation recommendations seem to be... but if you knew where you were deficient, then hopefully the expensive urine has a pay off after a few months? 

I've been wanting to take a test like that for years, @Carlo Romero!! I think results would be fascinating .

7 hours ago, Carlo Romero said:

Ladies and Gents, jumping in late on this one (and admittedly still reading through the Thrive forum archives), but curious if any of you have tried targeted supplements for purposes of repletion.

Any of you taken for example a blood test like SpectraCell which would provide analysis of deficiencies (and borderline areas) in vitamins and minerals? Seems like some literature on this speaks to repletion process taking up to 6 months of consistent, targeted supplementation where needed. 

I can relate to the comments in this thread on how chaotic preventative supplementation recommendations seem to be... but if you knew where you were deficient, then hopefully the expensive urine has a pay off after a few months? 

I have not, but such a test woud likely be a goldmine.

@Kelby O'Shea yes, for the reasons you explained, I'm not too worried about Australian olive oil :-) My comment was directed specifically to the oils used for canned fish. These are canned overseas and even if they say they use extra virgin olive oil, they could be using one that has been sitting in a factory for years, one that is not extra virgin, or even one that is not olive oil.

It's unlikely to be detected by taste only since sardines have a very strong flavor, the impact in terms of profit is massive if they can sub another cheap oil, and controls are very lacking.

Cod liver oil sucks. The Vit A ratio is way to high by the time you meet the EPA/DHA effective dose. 

Olive oil like I said in the videos is nothing special. Olives are not some magical food, it is just the easiest thing to produce oil from without industrial process. You can literary make it with a press. 

If you took all the oils out there and got the highest quality form available (if it was possible) Olive oil would not be the highest nutrient winner. The problem is the processing of the others (like walnut oil, guaranteed rancid) which makes olive oil the better choice. 

Here is all you ever wanted to know on oils

https://www.amazon.com/Fats-That-Heal-Kill-Cholesterol/dp/0920470386/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473628699&sr=1-1&keywords=udo+erasmus

I assume there must be other reliable nutritional deficiency exams out there, but the physio / chiropractor I go to uses Spectracell. And of course I wonder sometimes if these tests have their margins of error, end up providing a reason to buy vitamin supplements, etc., however, despite my doubts it seemed to contribute in a meaningful way to my well being (and seemed hard to dismiss as placebo).

Another factor could also be the probiotic / gut flora issues raised in the course which limited assimilation of nutrients in my normal food intake. Nevertheless, having metrics like B vitamin levels seemed helpful.

Jeff, I realize supplements will be addressed in Thrive 2, but if you have the time and willingness to speak of nutritional deficiency testing, it would be appreciated. 

The gold standard is to do full testing (thousands), create a supplement plan, retest in 90 days, adjust plan, retest at 6 months then again at the end of the year and basic testing every year. That is how its done correctly, I do this with every athlete I have, its about $10k for the first year including supplements. In level 2 I will tell you normative data based of what I have seen - an example is D3 = I have never seen someone with adequate levels. No need to test just start D3.

Levels down are just educated guess and are a better option if you are price sensitive.

Anyone that doesn't do the above who claims to know something about supplements is a salesman. Be careful who you listen to. 

40 minutes ago, Jeff Serven said:

The gold standard is to do full testing (thousands), create a supplement plan, retest in 90 days, adjust plan, retest at 6 months then again at the end of the year and basic testing every year. That is how its done correctly, I do this with every athlete I have, its about $10k for the first year including supplements. In level 2 I will tell you normative data based of what I have seen - an example is D3 = I have never seen someone with adequate levels. No need to test just start D3.

Levels down are just educated guess and are a better option if you are price sensitive.

Anyone that doesn't do the above who claims to know something about supplements is a salesman. Be careful who you listen to. 

 

 

Man, this right here is so accurate and important. If anyone were to take anything away from Thrive, nutrition, and sales/media pursuit of the next best superfood, this wouldn't be a bad place from which to start. 

Jeff, thank you for taking the time to give this feedback. Given the folks you train (and the high monetary value placed in their performance), I could see how some very sophisticated testing must be available as you describe. Is this something you are able to make available to a broader audience at your location (aka, Thrive folks)? And/or perhaps we can find closer to home with the right credentials? If this info is reserved for Thrive 2, understood.

In the meanwhile having a "good guess" for many of us may still be a step up from "having no clue"... if I try to find a silver lining on a lower cost evaluation...I agree its a jungle out there of supplements salesmen...

In any event, I greatly appreciate the D3 recommendation and the data you propose to share with us on Thrive 2 sounds very interesting. I will go to Whole Foods tomorrow to see some Vitamin D3 options and try to make an informed choice; I am already taking a Vitamin D supplement (as Cholecalciferol) at 2000 IUs but I am not sure I am getting a more targeted quality of D3 you have in mind.

I don't want wear you down Jeff on asking more on Vitamin D vs D3, dosage guidelines, etc since I suspect we are getting ahead of ourselves (but if you find it appropriate to give us another bit of guidance on D3 supplements specifically, I would be grateful and willing to incorporate the advice as may be available)

I know guys, isn't he great?! I've been trying to come up with a name or slogan to capture our affinity. I mean, Benedict Cumberbatch has his Cumberbitches.

So far all I can think of are duds (Serven servers, Jeff's GSTers, Jeff is our jeffe, etc.). No dice.

Anyway, @Carlo Romero, if you haven't read it already, just gave some info on recommended supplement brands (and maybe dosage? I can't remember) in the public nutrition forum in response to a question there.

Julia, thanks for your note. After doing some searches under your name I could not come up with what you posted on the public nutrition forum. Anyhow, any recommendations from the world of circus arts is definitely welcome (and an aside looking forward to your update in the future on working with that physio from LA, her website has some interesting content . . . and those athletes are impressive!).

12 hours ago, Julia Quigley said:

I know guys, isn't he great?! I've been trying to come up with a name or slogan to capture our affinity. I mean, Benedict Cumberbatch has his Cumberbitches.

So far all I can think of are duds (Serven servers, Jeff's GSTers, Jeff is our jeffe, etc.). No dice.

I thought we were minions with lasers?

9 hours ago, Briac Roquet said:

 

I thought we were minions with lasers?

"Space monkeys"

Remember: "The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club..."

10 hours ago, Briac Roquet said:

 

I thought we were minions with lasers?

I want a name tag...so a minion with a name tag.