Quick pointers please

Hi, I just found this website and it looks pretty good, and well I just had some questions:

I really like to exercise and workout, but I prefer to do only bodyweight exercises; I've done weights before but I just get bored from them and so I only do bodyweight now.

But I'm not anywhere near an advanced level or physique, since I have always been exercising on and off and have never been consistent, but I do have some sort of level, I'm not a complete beginner.

So my question is, I want to exercise to "bulk up" and well to really get in shape, but I only have some parallel bars that I installed yesterday, and some pushup bars; I don't have any rings or anything like that, and I will only be doing exercises like pushups, pullups, dips, handstands, etc. (no advanced things like the frog stand and straddles and things like that): so how should I train? How many sets/reps should I do?

Bulking up is a function of a strength program + eating more.

5x5 if you can.

If you have parallel bars, you can work skin the cats in some fashion. Consider them your hanging lever work. L-sit work instead of planche work though you could work planche leans.

I will use Steve Low's general suggestion of 1-2 exercises push/pull/core/legs.

Yea, if you want to grow you need to work HARD. That means that you want to be doing 5 reps because you can't do 6 or 7. Additionally, the 5X5 protocol is an introductory strength building protocol. Lets say you can do 5 dips with 50 lbs of extra weight. You'd do whatever general warm up you do first, and then you'd do one set of 5 with either bodyweight or +10-20 lbs. Then you do your second set of 5 with 30-40 lbs. Those first two sets are warm ups, to condition the nervous system for the real work and to get the muscle heated up and ready. Your next 3 sets would be with 50 lbs for 5 reps. You may find that on your fourth set you can't get rep # 5. No problem! You take a few breaths, just enough to get that one last rep. Then you get that last rep, and proceed to rest. For set 5 you may only get 2 or 3 reps continuously. You will continue to finish the set with whatever rest you need between reps, but no more. You push it. You work as hard as you can. When you are done with the dips you should feel like you need to be mopped up into a bucket. Then you rest for 3-5 minutes, or switch to a different body part, like doing pullups. I'd still take a little rest if I were you. You do the same thing with your pullups. Same thing with your pushups, Handstand pushups, whatever your second upper body push is. Same thing with deadlift, squats, SLS, GHR, whatever you do for your legs. If you don't work legs you are basically an idiot. I hate to be that blunt, but it is the truth. Same goes for core.

If you aren't going to work for more advanced variations of pushups, you have two choices: Buy the power pushup 3( or get cheap elastic bands from walmart or something, the longer loops that look like figure 8) and use the bands as added resistance or put on a heavy bookbag, or relegate push ups to a warm up only exercise, or something for active recovery on rest days with one or two moderate rep(something you can do fairly easily) sets. Standard bodyweight pushups, no matter what incline or decline you use, will not give you enough resistance to effectively build strength and muscle, even on the rings. Once you can do 10 you're not going to get bigger or stronger. You HAVE to add resistance in some way, whether it's bands, weight, decreased leverage(like pseudo planche pushups), etc in order to continue to use them for strength and growth.

If you work out like that and you do full body workouts you will only be able to work 2 or 3 times(at most) per week because you will need the recovery time. You will grow and get strong faster than you think is possible if your nutrition is right and you work this way. Even if you split your workouts, I'd stay at 4 per week or less, and I'd only split upper and lower. Full body works better for a number of reasons, including more total recovery time and greater hormonal response.

Additionally, your attitude is self-limiting. Saying "I will only do these exercises" is basically saying "I want to limit my long term progress." You may not care, and I'm not intending to hurt your feelings, but that is the simple truth.

Your overall best exercises for bulking are going to be handstand pushups, weighted dips, weighted pullups, weighted squats, SLS (weighted eventually), GHR, and deadlift. Ab work you're best working hard and doing inverted situps, hanging leg lifts, and the body levers.

Blairbob said:

Bulking up is a function of a strength program + eating more.

5x5 if you can.

If you have parallel bars, you can work skin the cats in some fashion. Consider them your hanging lever work. L-sit work instead of planche work though you could work planche leans.

I will use Steve Low's general suggestion of 1-2 exercises push/pull/core/legs.

I can do 12 chinups max with correct form, #13 would be kicking and jerking; I used to be able to do more pullups, but now I can only do like 8 max; dips I can do like 11, and pushups like 20 something (I only do declined pushups, with my feet placed on a 23inch bench and with the pushups bars to go even deeper, I don't really do normal pushups on the floor).

What are skin the cats?

I've been reading a lot of threads here and I was surprised to see that the routine and methods I used to do were exactly the same as another one who posted it here; I had seen that routine in another website a long time ago, and that's where I got it, maybe he got it from the same place.

Many months ago I used to workout on the parallel bars and with the pushup bars everyday, and back then I could do more reps, but I stopped, and just like 4 days ago I started going to the bars again, so the pain and soreness you get from coming back is gone now.

slizzardman said:

Yea, if you want to grow you need to work HARD. That means that you want to be doing 5 reps because you can't do 6 or 7. Additionally, the 5X5 protocol is an introductory strength building protocol. Lets say you can do 5 dips with 50 lbs of extra weight. You'd do whatever general warm up you do first, and then you'd do one set of 5 with either bodyweight or +10-20 lbs. Then you do your second set of 5 with 30-40 lbs. Those first two sets are warm ups, to condition the nervous system for the real work and to get the muscle heated up and ready. Your next 3 sets would be with 50 lbs for 5 reps. You may find that on your fourth set you can't get rep # 5. No problem! You take a few breaths, just enough to get that one last rep. Then you get that last rep, and proceed to rest. For set 5 you may only get 2 or 3 reps continuously. You will continue to finish the set with whatever rest you need between reps, but no more. You push it. You work as hard as you can. When you are done with the dips you should feel like you need to be mopped up into a bucket. Then you rest for 3-5 minutes, or switch to a different body part, like doing pullups. I'd still take a little rest if I were you. You do the same thing with your pullups. Same thing with your pushups, Handstand pushups, whatever your second upper body push is. Same thing with deadlift, squats, SLS, GHR, whatever you do for your legs. If you don't work legs you are basically an idiot. I hate to be that blunt, but it is the truth. Same goes for core.

Why can't I do 6 or 7? Is it bad to go beyond that?

I don't have a dip belt, or weight vest, but I prefer to work 100% bodyweight only. Am I doomed if I go 100% bodyweight? :?

Yes, I work my legs, I like to do a lot of squats with a little 2x2 1/2 board to place my heels on it, since doing squats with my feet flat on the floor feels very bad and I can't push with all my strength, but I do them without any weights; I like how they get your legs fired up. But I wanted to ask: is it true that squats make your butt bigger? Because if they do, I'm not sure I want to do them.

slizzardman said:

If you aren't going to work for more advanced variations of pushups, you have two choices: Buy the power pushup 3( or get cheap elastic bands from walmart or something, the longer loops that look like figure 8) and use the bands as added resistance or put on a heavy bookbag, or relegate push ups to a warm up only exercise, or something for active recovery on rest days with one or two moderate rep(something you can do fairly easily) sets. Standard bodyweight pushups, no matter what incline or decline you use, will not give you enough resistance to effectively build strength and muscle, even on the rings. Once you can do 10 you're not going to get bigger or stronger. You HAVE to add resistance in some way, whether it's bands, weight, decreased leverage(like pseudo planche pushups), etc in order to continue to use them for strength and growth.

Looks like my question of going 100% bodyweight is shot down here :shock:

slizzardman said:

If you work out like that and you do full body workouts you will only be able to work 2 or 3 times(at most) per week because you will need the recovery time. You will grow and get strong faster than you think is possible if your nutrition is right and you work this way. Even if you split your workouts, I'd stay at 4 per week or less, and I'd only split upper and lower. Full body works better for a number of reasons, including more total recovery time and greater hormonal response.

I've always worked almost every day, or at least 5-6 days a week, and I always do all the exercises I do.

slizzardman said:

Additionally, your attitude is self-limiting. Saying "I will only do these exercises" is basically saying "I want to limit my long term progress." You may not care, and I'm not intending to hurt your feelings, but that is the simple truth.

Well I only said that I don't have rings, and won't have any time soon, and that I can't do the exercises like the frog stand and all the progressions that follow that one, like I said, I'm not training to be a gymnast, I just want to work out bodyweight.

But I do do handstands and HSPU, I really like those and will work to get good at them.

slizzardman said:

Your overall best exercises for bulking are going to be handstand pushups, weighted dips, weighted pullups, weighted squats, SLS (weighted eventually), GHR, and deadlift. Ab work you're best working hard and doing inverted situps, hanging leg lifts, and the body levers.

Do you have to use additional weight?

I'll lay out my routine here, which I think is the same as that other guy I mentioned: I start with doing the max # of chinups with correct form that I can, rest 30 seconds, then max # of pullups, rest 30 seconds, max of dips, 30s, then max of declined pushups, and then I rest 1 minute and do it again, the max number I can of each exercise.

That's my "heavy" routine, and since I just got back to it, I've been doing only like 2 of them in the day during the last 3 days.

I also do a lot of handstands during the day, belly-facing-the-wall version, as much as I can, and then I also do HSPU but with my feet on the wall because I can't balance myself freely yet, but I'm very close.

Oh and one last question: do you have to over-eat to have gains? Or will eating healthy but normally be enough?

So that's the deal right there hehe, thank you both for the answers, and I hope you can give me further tips on what to do exactly, since I'm really a n00b in these things.

Rampage said:

Why can't I do 6 or 7? Is it bad to go beyond that?

If you are doing over 5 reps your intensity is not high enough, you should really have to reach for it! For example I was doing my tuck planche push ups today and the first set of 5 was easy so the next few sets I flattened my back out and did them in an adv tuck. . .lets just say I was REALLY working hard after the first 3 reps of the first set, and then I did 3 more sets (only 4 sets due to time constraints :cry: .

slizzardman said:

Your overall best exercises for bulking are going to be handstand pushups, weighted dips, weighted pullups, weighted squats, SLS (weighted eventually), GHR, and deadlift. Ab work you're best working hard and doing inverted situps, hanging leg lifts, and the body levers.

This is what I will be doing for the next 4 weeks (I want that 2.5 pounds a week back!!! :twisted: ). My weighted squats will be Overhead squats and then I will do heavy single legs to finish myself off . . . after I deadlift of course! Then its off to the weighted pull ups and dips! I guess I could do hanging leg lifts off a bar put really high on a power rack thing (I dont know the names of stuff in a weight room lol! :roll: ). Should be fun!

Rampage said:

Oh and one last question: do you have to over-eat to have gains? Or will eating healthy but normally be enough?

If you are a true ectomorph like myself then yes you need to eat everything in sight . . . but keep it as clean as you can. . . truly, if I don’t say drink enough water, or sleep 10 full hours a day or eat an ENTIRE chicken for lunch and enough veggies to feed said chicken for a year . . . I don’t gain a single pound; the past 2 weeks have proven that without a doubt in my mind! Right now as I am sitting here I have drunk a half nalgene of water and STILL feel full after I ate 2 hours ago . . . technically I should eat again but I try to avoid falling asleep with food still in my mouth. . . the choking hazard just isn’t worth the risk! LOL

Just remember to have FUN with it! My friends stare in aw as I sit there and eat lunch . . . they dont even realize I do that like 3 times a day with 3 other "little" meals in between!

Rampage, you talk like a guy who doesn't want to get bigger or stronger. Change your perspective on training or learn to live with mediocrity. That's harsh, and I apologize for hurt feelings, but your self-imposed limits and your training schedule are the reason you are the size and strength that you are. To move beyond your current level, you need to change your thinking and your training. It's that simple. Anyone who tells you different is just after your money.

Also, for the weighted dips and pullups (and handstand pushups if you're that frikkin strong!), do them on rings if available. It's much more effective. Wide grip pullups kind of have to be done on a bar, but the others are just as good or better on rings, in my experience. Dips, by far, are harder and more productive on the rings. My training log shows that.

To niftyvt:

No, I'm not an ectomorph, I'm actually kind of a mesomorph, but I'm not sure if a complete one; it doesn't really take me that much work to get defined or build muscle, I see results kind of quick (it's true! I'm not bragging...).

slizzardman said:

Rampage, you talk like a guy who doesn't want to get bigger or stronger. Change your perspective on training or learn to live with mediocrity. That's harsh, and I apologize for hurt feelings, but your self-imposed limits and your training schedule are the reason you are the size and strength that you are. To move beyond your current level, you need to change your thinking and your training. It's that simple. Anyone who tells you different is just after your money.

No, it's not like that, that's why I was asking for pointers here...

I'm new to all this and don't know how you guys train, so please clear this up for me: you don't do more than 5 reps of either pullups, dips, chins or pushups? So what you guys do are many sets with low reps? How much do you rest between sets?

Is working like that more effective? I just decided to do the routine that I do because I didn't like to be stuck like 20 minutes on the bars doing a lot of sets; I just did the max I could in 2 sets and that was it 8) , but now I guess it's not like that.

slizzardman said:

Also, for the weighted dips and pullups (and handstand pushups if you're that frikkin strong!), do them on rings if available. It's much more effective. Wide grip pullups kind of have to be done on a bar, but the others are just as good or better on rings, in my experience. Dips, by far, are harder and more productive on the rings. My training log shows that.

I already told you I don't have rings, but I will probably be able to buy ones like in less than 2 months.

Good deal

Well, here's the reason, short and sweet. Muscle grows when it HAS to and not before. Our bodies want to stay the way they are. The only way to change them is to convince them they MUST change. This involves survival. We are made to survive. When you work your body to the point where your current strength is not enough, you will trigger adaptations that result in more strength. Muscle tissue has a limited working capacity, so in order to grow stronger it must grow bigger. There are two types of growth(hypertrophy): sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy occurs when you consistently work in the glycogen pathway. Basically, it makes your muscles swell up so that there is more room for sugar, or glycogen, to be stored. This is the type of hypertrophy that bodybuilders are after. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy does not lead to significant strength gains, and can be lost quickly since it is essentially extra fluid in the muscles with no significant increase in the contractile proteins that actually do the work. Myofibrillar hypertrophy is the incorporation of new contractile proteins into existing muscle cells, and therefore significant strength gains but less size gain. Make no mistake: You will still get bigger. However, the size you gain will be useful to you instead of just being pretty. Size gains from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is kind of like having a paper mache couch: It might look neat, but you can't use it. It takes time for either to occur, and similar levels of effort. So, you need to ask yourself a simple question: Do I want to be as strong or stronger than I look, or do I want to look big and strong but be weaker than I appear. These both occur together, but by focusing on the strength work most of your gains will be myofibrillar.

I am perhaps not the best representative of PURE gymnastics training, as my training is varied and I am strong in a number of different ways. However, it is unquestionably true that the basic gymnastics training is the best strength base you can build, especially for the upper body. It's still great for the lower body, but there are limits on what can be achieved with lower body power without spinal loading(It's still quite impressive). That's not something for you to really worry about right now, but it's good to learn.

The smart way to build strength is this: You want to work your entire body as hard as you can with the most productive exercises, using as few exercises as possible. Why? If you're doing four different exercises to just train your arms, you are doing one of two things: you are isolating the arms with a bunch of curls, tricep extensions and lord knows what else, or you are doing way too much work. If you're using something like decline bench press then you aren't going to build the overall body strength that you could by doing dips. Knowing these things is vital to your success. Until you get or make your rings, do what you can with what you've got! I can tell you right now that you have everything you need to become a monster if you want to!

Your most efficient use of time will be to do something similar to the following:

Pair pushes and pulls like this:

1 set of wall handstand pushups(whatever progression you can do), 20-30 seconds rest(if you even want to rest), 1 set of pullups, 2-4 minutes of rest, depending on what you need. Repeat 4 more times. Remember, your first two sets are "warm ups." Not easy, but not working weight. When I do warm ups, I honestly don't even rest, I just go back and forth. You may need to rest some at first, but you'll only need the full 2-4 minutes for the three work sets.

Then you do something like this:

1 set of dips(weighted if you can do more than 6 or 7), 20-30 second rest, 1 set of front lever row progression (Could be a foot supported row, who knows. Whatever you can do.). Rest 2-4 minutes, as necessary. Repeat 4 more times. Again, the first two sets are warm ups.

You CAN absolutely add in planche work, and I absolutely recommend it. Starting to learn the PPP is the next step in push up strength. I would suggest doing these with your dip set, as the first exercise, and perhaps taking 45 seconds rest before doing the dips.

This should take you 30 minutes, at the most.

At that point, you've done all the basic strength work you need for your upper body. Now it's time to hit the spine and lower body, and that's going to take some weighted work. Sorry There IS BW stuff you can do, but not anything super effective for the spine. Almost everything requires added weight at some point. What I am offering here is BASIC STRENGTH. This is by no means an intermediate or advanced routine, and I am working with what you have.

Squats and Deadlifts. I am very, very strong in my spine and legs, so for me it's nothing to do these together. For you, especially right now, do them separate.

Squats: 5 sets of 5. You can do BW SLS progression, or weighted front or back squats. It's up to you. I'd suggest that one workout you do the BW SLS and one workout you do the weighted squats.

Deadlifts: There is no substitute for the deadlift. Learn the form, do it right, and get strong!

GHR are very important, they will add to your deadlift strength immensely. I'd do the SLS and GHR one workout, and the deadlift the next.

Make no mistake, this will kick your ass. This will be great for the first few months(3-5), as you will build excellent work capacity and strength. You will also get bigger.

After your first month or so I would start practicing the basic statics the day before your workout. Statics don't damage the muscles nearly as much as the dynamic work so doing front lever holds and pseudo planches(as an example) won't screw you up the next day for your workout, whereas that workout will definitely leave you in no shape to be doing statics the next day. I'd go a little lighter on the handstand holds, at least at first.

As soon as you can, move the PPP, dips, pull ups, and front lever row work to the rings. You will go down in weight and reps because the rings are MUCH harder, but you will build up more strength as well. When you first get your rings, just practice the straight arm support position for the first two weeks, don't move anything until you are rock solid in your support for at least 20 seconds.

There will probably be dissenting opinions because this is not pure gymnastics, but it is the best way for you to get strong and put on the weight as solid, usable muscle. This program will change after your first 3-5 months or so, but for now it will be perfect.

Alright slizzardman, please bear with me because as I said, I'm new to all this stuff and I am simply inquiring with the questions I make, I do not pretend to say it should be this way or that nor do I pretend to say what is better.

So please, just answer me this question: is the routine that I do right now useless? What will happen if I keep doing it? What's so bad about it?

With the first paragraph that you wrote, you make it seem like I could keep growing and getting stronger just by simply going all-out with e.g. the exercises I do on the PB, or with my routine and with doing as much as I can, because you mention survival and all that, so you confused me there.

I really would like to be stronger than big with no strength, but I wouldn't want to be a stick but super-strong either, that would be weird.

You mentioned I should start pairing pushes and pulls by doing 1 set of wall handstand pushups, 20-30 seconds rest and then 1 set of pullups with 2-4 minutes of rest, for 4 sets, and the same with dips and front lever row progression, but how many reps should I do for each exercise?

I absolutely suck at planches, but I would really like to be able to do them, so how do I do a pseudo-planche pushup?

As for the lower body work, I told you I really like squats; I tried doing pistols, or SLS's, but I prefered doing normal squats with both legs because I could do more reps and I could use more strength/flex more, and because I didn't have to do one leg and then the other hehe :? (sorry).

I can't do deadlifts, because I don't have any weights at all, no dip belts, no nothing, I really have no weights and I prefer to go 100% BW; again, I'm not training to be a gymnast, just to get as strong and built as I can but without going for being a gymnast.

Thanks for the replies, but forgive me for the questions I ask! I really am just inquiring and wanting to know why, so please don't think I simply want to disagree with you or something.

If it's any help, I just turned 21.

Rampage,

if you do more reps (like you mentioned for squats), you're not working strength. Strength is accomplished when you do something so demanding on your body that it is barely able to do reps of it. It this case, we aim for a difficulty that lets us do about 5 reps, there shouldn't be strength left over to do another rep in the same set.

This is what leads to adaptation of the muscle and the notion of survival that slizzardman was talking about. Basically it means that if you were barely able to perform 5 reps, then after resting and proper nutrition, next time it will be slightly easier for your body to perform those same 5 reps. This is your body adapting to new strains and thus becoming stronger.

For that reason, you should perform single legged squats, as you are putting twice as much resistance on each leg. This means more strength to be gained. Also, in such a movement, you might notice a lot of deficiencies in your body, such as muscle imbalances, flexibility issues, etc. that are normally masked when performing a normal (2 legged) squat. This is because some other muscles may be doing the work that weaker one should have. Either way, by pushing your body to do things it wasn't able to do before, you will get stronger and over the long term, you will better understand the strengths and weaknesses (limitations) of your body, so that you can work on them better.

I hope that helped and I hope I didn't misquote you anywhere slizzardman (PS: I enjoy reading your posts on the forum).

RandomHavoc said:

Rampage,

if you do more reps (like you mentioned for squats), you're not working strength.

What are you working then?

RandomHavoc said:

Strength is accomplished when you do something so demanding on your body that it is barely able to do reps of it. It this case, we aim for a difficulty that lets us do about 5 reps, there shouldn't be strength left over to do another rep in the same set.

This is what leads to adaptation of the muscle and the notion of survival that slizzardman was talking about. Basically it means that if you were barely able to perform 5 reps, then after resting and proper nutrition, next time it will be slightly easier for your body to perform those same 5 reps. This is your body adapting to new strains and thus becoming stronger.

For that reason, you should perform single legged squats, as you are putting twice as much resistance on each leg. This means more strength to be gained. Also, in such a movement, you might notice a lot of deficiencies in your body, such as muscle imbalances, flexibility issues, etc. that are normally masked when performing a normal (2 legged) squat. This is because some other muscles may be doing the work that weaker one should have. Either way, by pushing your body to do things it wasn't able to do before, you will get stronger and over the long term, you will better understand the strengths and weaknesses (limitations) of your body, so that you can work on them better.

I hope that helped and I hope I didn't misquote you anywhere slizzardman (PS: I enjoy reading your posts on the forum).

But how am I going to do 5 reps if I want to go 100% bodyweight? I can't? Will I have to use weight so that I will only be able to do 5 reps? I thought gymnasts didn't use any weights.

Rampage said:

Alright slizzardman, please bear with me because as I said, I'm new to all this stuff and I am simply inquiring with the questions I make, I do not pretend to say it should be this way or that nor do I pretend to say what is better.

So please, just answer me this question: is the routine that I do right now useless? What will happen if I keep doing it? What's so bad about it?

With the first paragraph that you wrote, you make it seem like I could keep growing and getting stronger just by simply going all-out with e.g. the exercises I do on the PB, or with my routine and with doing as much as I can, because you mention survival and all that, so you confused me there.

I really would like to be stronger than big with no strength, but I wouldn't want to be a stick but super-strong either, that would be weird.

You mentioned I should start pairing pushes and pulls by doing 1 set of wall handstand pushups, 20-30 seconds rest and then 1 set of pullups with 2-4 minutes of rest, for 4 sets, and the same with dips and front lever row progression, but how many reps should I do for each exercise?

I absolutely suck at planches, but I would really like to be able to do them, so how do I do a pseudo-planche pushup?

As for the lower body work, I told you I really like squats; I tried doing pistols, or SLS's, but I prefered doing normal squats with both legs because I could do more reps and I could use more strength/flex more, and because I didn't have to do one leg and then the other hehe :? (sorry).

I can't do deadlifts, because I don't have any weights at all, no dip belts, no nothing, I really have no weights and I prefer to go 100% BW; again, I'm not training to be a gymnast, just to get as strong and built as I can but without going for being a gymnast.

Thanks for the replies, but forgive me for the questions I ask! I really am just inquiring and wanting to know why, so please don't think I simply want to disagree with you or something.

Hey, first off, if you want to disagree you're more than welcome to I'm more than capable of backing up most anything I say, especially when it's about the physical component of training.

So, it's not that your current routine is BAD, because there's really no such thing. The problem is that your current training method is simply not going to give you the results you are talking about wanting! That's all. You won't be a stick, your body will grow. Don't even worry about that!

As for deadlifts, if you ever want to give them a try, the easiest way to do them when you have no weights is to buy bags of concrete. It's like 4 bucks for 80 lbs! You could have 800 lbs for 40 bucks! That's practically FREE. And what you could do is buy a 10 foot piece of say... 1 inch RIGID METAL CONDUIT. MUST be rigid, that's the thick steel stuff. Then you can play with the cement, approximate how much you work out with, and make cement blocks that you can just dump into 5 gallon paint buckets that you hang off the side of the pipe. Obviously, you'll want to cut the pipe to around 4-5 feet in length, and use strong-ish rope to hitch the buckets to the pipe so they don't come off. Easy to store, load, and use, and almost free! Far cheaper than anything else you can buy. An even cheaper way to do things is to use dirt and water in the bucket! FIll the bucket with dirt until you have two buckets that are more or less the same weight. You can just use the buckets to do a dumbbell style deadlift, one arm OR two arms. They really are just about the best thing you can do for your body in terms of strength along the backside of your body, which we call the posterior chain. It's up to you what you do though! I'm just giving you ideas so you can have super cheap or free weights if you decide to use them. THere are a lot of reasons why deadlifting is a great thing to do, but the single most important one is that people hurt their backs lifting things off the ground ALL THE TIME!!! If you deadlift on a regular basis with the goal of becoming as strong as you can, you will probably never hurt your back around the house, and you can laugh freely at the clowns who "throw their back out" doing everyday things like picking up the laundry. It is very functional in real life.

I think that you don't have Coach Sommer's book. You should buy it and read it. I personally think it is the best 44 dollars I have ever spent in my life, and I've been to Southeast Asia, so I am telling you there are some interesting things you can do for 44 bucks. LOL(My favorite personally is the go-karts in thailand, because they don't care if you flip, bump, kill yourself, it's whatever to them!)! Seriously though, the book, Building the Gymnastic Body, has step-by-step instructions for how to build up to each of the exercises, and explains why the low reps are used in gymnastics.

For your question on reps, you should be using 5 rep sets, and the reason is that you want to build strength and size. You must be doing 5 reps because you can't do more than that, which is why it's important to add weight to your dips and pull ups. If it helps, think of it as being fatter, not adding weight. There's no difference. I'm 228 lbs and I do pull ups, so if you make yourself weigh 228 lbs it's still bodyweight for someone Don't talk yourself out of using weighted movements

Squats are great, but again you need to add weight. It's the exact same reason: Your body doesn't grow if it doesn't have to. With your workouts you ARE getting a survival response, but it's a different one. What you are doing is training your body to become more efficient at processing metabolic waste products. That doesn't require the body to get bigger or stronger, so it won't! The adaptations you are experiencing are greater cappilarization(sp?) for better bloodflow so that waste products can be moved faster, more mitochondria to process the intermediary byproducts of energy cycles, etc. If you want to get bigger and stronger, you have to PROVE to your body that its current strength isn't sufficient for survival. Only then will it grow. The only way to prove that to your body is to work it hard and heavy.

slizzardman said:

.....and I've been to Southeast Asia, so I am telling you there are some interesting things you can do for 44 bucks. LOL (My favorite personally is the go-karts in thailand, because they don't care if you flip, bump, kill yourself, it's whatever to them!)!...

Hey! Watch it! What goes on cruise stays on cruise!

slizzardman said:

Hey, first off, if you want to disagree you're more than welcome to I'm more than capable of backing up most anything I say, especially when it's about the physical component of training.

So, it's not that your current routine is BAD, because there's really no such thing. The problem is that your current training method is simply not going to give you the results you are talking about wanting! That's all. You won't be a stick, your body will grow. Don't even worry about that!

As for deadlifts, if you ever want to give them a try, the easiest way to do them when you have no weights is to buy bags of concrete. It's like 4 bucks for 80 lbs! You could have 800 lbs for 40 bucks! That's practically FREE. And what you could do is buy a 10 foot piece of say... 1 inch RIGID METAL CONDUIT. MUST be rigid, that's the thick steel stuff. Then you can play with the cement, approximate how much you work out with, and make cement blocks that you can just dump into 5 gallon paint buckets that you hang off the side of the pipe. Obviously, you'll want to cut the pipe to around 4-5 feet in length, and use strong-ish rope to hitch the buckets to the pipe so they don't come off. Easy to store, load, and use, and almost free! Far cheaper than anything else you can buy. An even cheaper way to do things is to use dirt and water in the bucket! FIll the bucket with dirt until you have two buckets that are more or less the same weight. You can just use the buckets to do a dumbbell style deadlift, one arm OR two arms. They really are just about the best thing you can do for your body in terms of strength along the backside of your body, which we call the posterior chain. It's up to you what you do though! I'm just giving you ideas so you can have super cheap or free weights if you decide to use them. THere are a lot of reasons why deadlifting is a great thing to do, but the single most important one is that people hurt their backs lifting things off the ground ALL THE TIME!!! If you deadlift on a regular basis with the goal of becoming as strong as you can, you will probably never hurt your back around the house, and you can laugh freely at the clowns who "throw their back out" doing everyday things like picking up the laundry. It is very functional in real life.

I think that you don't have Coach Sommer's book. You should buy it and read it. I personally think it is the best 44 dollars I have ever spent in my life, and I've been to Southeast Asia, so I am telling you there are some interesting things you can do for 44 bucks. LOL(My favorite personally is the go-karts in thailand, because they don't care if you flip, bump, kill yourself, it's whatever to them!)! Seriously though, the book, Building the Gymnastic Body, has step-by-step instructions for how to build up to each of the exercises, and explains why the low reps are used in gymnastics.

For your question on reps, you should be using 5 rep sets, and the reason is that you want to build strength and size. You must be doing 5 reps because you can't do more than that, which is why it's important to add weight to your dips and pull ups. If it helps, think of it as being fatter, not adding weight. There's no difference. I'm 228 lbs and I do pull ups, so if you make yourself weigh 228 lbs it's still bodyweight for someone Don't talk yourself out of using weighted movements

Squats are great, but again you need to add weight. It's the exact same reason: Your body doesn't grow if it doesn't have to. With your workouts you ARE getting a survival response, but it's a different one. What you are doing is training your body to become more efficient at processing metabolic waste products. That doesn't require the body to get bigger or stronger, so it won't! The adaptations you are experiencing are greater cappilarization(sp?) for better bloodflow so that waste products can be moved faster, more mitochondria to process the intermediary byproducts of energy cycles, etc. If you want to get bigger and stronger, you have to PROVE to your body that its current strength isn't sufficient for survival. Only then will it grow. The only way to prove that to your body is to work it hard and heavy.

Alright...I get it, I just thought I could really work without weights and still get big.

I don't have the book, no, but I will probably buy it in the next 2 months.

Right now I am not in the U.S., but in Central America, so it will be best to buy the rings and the book and all that when I get there next month, they don't sell anything here.

What do you think about those guys on youtube that only do calisthenics? The "calisthenicskingz" and "barbarians" and all of those? Have you seen those videos?

I've spoken to some of them and others that know them, and they told me that those guys don't use any weights, and that their method is going for the max # of reps on each exercise, but I don't know if it is true.

Have you seen that guy called "Hit"?

Rampage said:

slizzardman said:

Hey, first off, if you want to disagree you're more than welcome to I'm more than capable of backing up most anything I say, especially when it's about the physical component of training.

So, it's not that your current routine is BAD, because there's really no such thing. The problem is that your current training method is simply not going to give you the results you are talking about wanting! That's all. You won't be a stick, your body will grow. Don't even worry about that!

As for deadlifts, if you ever want to give them a try, the easiest way to do them when you have no weights is to buy bags of concrete. It's like 4 bucks for 80 lbs! You could have 800 lbs for 40 bucks! That's practically FREE. And what you could do is buy a 10 foot piece of say... 1 inch RIGID METAL CONDUIT. MUST be rigid, that's the thick steel stuff. Then you can play with the cement, approximate how much you work out with, and make cement blocks that you can just dump into 5 gallon paint buckets that you hang off the side of the pipe. Obviously, you'll want to cut the pipe to around 4-5 feet in length, and use strong-ish rope to hitch the buckets to the pipe so they don't come off. Easy to store, load, and use, and almost free! Far cheaper than anything else you can buy. An even cheaper way to do things is to use dirt and water in the bucket! FIll the bucket with dirt until you have two buckets that are more or less the same weight. You can just use the buckets to do a dumbbell style deadlift, one arm OR two arms. They really are just about the best thing you can do for your body in terms of strength along the backside of your body, which we call the posterior chain. It's up to you what you do though! I'm just giving you ideas so you can have super cheap or free weights if you decide to use them. THere are a lot of reasons why deadlifting is a great thing to do, but the single most important one is that people hurt their backs lifting things off the ground ALL THE TIME!!! If you deadlift on a regular basis with the goal of becoming as strong as you can, you will probably never hurt your back around the house, and you can laugh freely at the clowns who "throw their back out" doing everyday things like picking up the laundry. It is very functional in real life.

I think that you don't have Coach Sommer's book. You should buy it and read it. I personally think it is the best 44 dollars I have ever spent in my life, and I've been to Southeast Asia, so I am telling you there are some interesting things you can do for 44 bucks. LOL(My favorite personally is the go-karts in thailand, because they don't care if you flip, bump, kill yourself, it's whatever to them!)! Seriously though, the book, Building the Gymnastic Body, has step-by-step instructions for how to build up to each of the exercises, and explains why the low reps are used in gymnastics.

For your question on reps, you should be using 5 rep sets, and the reason is that you want to build strength and size. You must be doing 5 reps because you can't do more than that, which is why it's important to add weight to your dips and pull ups. If it helps, think of it as being fatter, not adding weight. There's no difference. I'm 228 lbs and I do pull ups, so if you make yourself weigh 228 lbs it's still bodyweight for someone Don't talk yourself out of using weighted movements

Squats are great, but again you need to add weight. It's the exact same reason: Your body doesn't grow if it doesn't have to. With your workouts you ARE getting a survival response, but it's a different one. What you are doing is training your body to become more efficient at processing metabolic waste products. That doesn't require the body to get bigger or stronger, so it won't! The adaptations you are experiencing are greater cappilarization(sp?) for better bloodflow so that waste products can be moved faster, more mitochondria to process the intermediary byproducts of energy cycles, etc. If you want to get bigger and stronger, you have to PROVE to your body that its current strength isn't sufficient for survival. Only then will it grow. The only way to prove that to your body is to work it hard and heavy.

Alright...I get it, I just thought I could really work without weights and still get big.

I don't have the book, no, but I will probably buy it in the next 2 months.

Right now I am not in the U.S., but in Central America, so it will be best to buy the rings and the book and all that when I get there next month, they don't sell anything here.

What do you think about those guys on youtube that only do calisthenics? The "calisthenicskingz" and "barbarians" and all of those? Have you seen those videos?

I've spoken to some of them and others that know them, and they told me that those guys don't use any weights, and that their method is going for the max # of reps on each exercise, but I don't know if it is true.

Have you seen that guy called "Hit"?

Oh yes, there are a TON of videos where Hit is using a weighted vest. Don't believe the hype, your natural body weight is a limiting factor. Once you start getting into rings work, more difficult variations of pushups like the planche progression, more difficult dips, more difficult handstand pushups, you of course can accomplish a HUGE amount, but there always comes a point when you have to add weight. Even professional gymnasts do it. They all do added weight. It's just how strength progression works.

With BW exercises, you need to increase the load in how you lever in a movement. You need to put more load on that lever which means harder progressions.

and I've been to Southeast Asia, so I am telling you there are some interesting things you can do for 44 bucks.

This is a classic quote.

You could probably get the rings and book shipped to you in Central America unless you are too remote or shipping or import fees are insane.

Here is the reasoning.

In order to increase strength, you need to recruit as much muscle fibres as possible while its under tension of load. The highest intensity you can perform for 1 rep is called your 1 rep max (1RM). Now obviously there is a trade-off between the number of reps you do and the muscle fibres recruited. So the more reps done, the less recruited.

1-5 reps per set : maximal strength gains.

6-8 reps per set: middle ground between strength and hypertrophy.

9-12 reps per set: hypertrophy.

13+ reps per set: muscular endurance.

So by doing the amount of reps you are talking about, you are not taxing your body. You are not recruiting much muscle fibres, therefore there is little incentive for your muscles to adapt to a higher intensity by getting stronger.

I recommend reading this article posted by Coach Sommer: http://gymnasticbodies.com/articles1.html

It talks why gymnasts can get the type of body and strength they have without weights. Upper body wise, gymnastics are probably unrivalled in the strength they can achieve. This should respond to your question about getting stronger legs via bodyweight as well. You don't need weights. Deleveraging your body is key to making something like a squat or pushup 10x harder than you might think.

If you wish to learn more about how your body responds to adaptation via weight training, I stronger emphasise you read Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. For bodyweight, absorb everything Coach Sommer writes about. Currently, I'm reading Charles Palequin (sp?) and I'm learning quite a bit still.

Hope that helps.

*EDIT: I didn't realise there was a page 2 to the thread before I posted this. This post is probably not relevant anymore. My apologies.

No worries, Havoc! Good post Total volume is just as important as the intensity of each set though, just so you know. If you work with sets of 5 and do 5 work sets, you'll be getting a pretty even split between growth and hypertrophy. That's why with the 5x5 system it's important to use the first 2 sets as warm up. The more work sets you do the more you'll have to recover, which will delay the next workout, which will mean that it takes longer to gain the strength you are looking for. There is only so much strength your body builds from one workout to the next, so having to wait longer between workouts just prolongs the journey. There's also the issue of missing your optimal strength curve, but that's more technical.

There are several things that happen after you work out.

1) Your body heals damage from the workout to baseline levels.

2) Your body replenishes used glycogen.

3) Your body adapts to the strain by either adding new actin/myosin fibers to existing myofibrils or by adding sarcoplasmic fluid to existing muscle cells, or a mix depending on the training stimulus. This is referred to as super-compensation.

#2 usually isn't an issue with strength training, because it only takes 2-3 days or so to replenish even severely depleted glycogen. The problem usually lies with working out before #1 and 3 have taken place. The harder you work, the more recovery time you need, because if you only heal to baseline and then work out, you won't have let your body super-compensate. That means that the growth you could have had is wasted. As you get stronger you need more rest.

Someone benching 300 lbs may be able to bench 3 times per week, but by the time they get to 400 lbs they may only be able to bench twice a week, and by the time they are benching 500 they may only be able to bench once every 5 or 6 days. That's because there is more total trauma, which means they need more time to heal and supercompensate. If the guy who benched 300 lbs kept benching 3 times per week, he may never make it to benching 400 lbs, and certainly never to 500, because he is not giving his body the time it needs to continue growing. Same goes for other heavy lifts.

This is what happens when people stagnate, and this is why Coach says that there is no point in trying to develop absolute maximal strength from a gymnastics perspective. Once you get strong enough to do the hardest things in gymnastics you just want to maintain that strength, because it takes a certain frequency of practice to build and maintain skills that involve moving through space. If such an athlete were to continue to pursue maximal strength in such a sport beyond what is necessary, there would a need to reduce frequency of training even for skills, and that would be detrimental to the progress of the athlete.

For a person who is more interested in just developing absolute maximum strength, this is not a concern, and so the slow spreading out of the workout schedule is not a big deal. Even so, it will be years and years and years before any of us gets to that point. Even when I work really, really hard like I'm getting back into doing, I can still workout heavy twice a week without over-training and still practice skills in between.

There is another concern, and it is why eventually to develop maximum absolute strength you have to work up to just using singles. Like I said, the more total work you do the more recovery time you need between workouts. Unfortunately, there is something of a catch 22. After each workout, the rate at which the body develops and peaks its strength adaptation is different from the rate at which it heals. Strength adaptation is maximized more quickly than recovery as total work increases. Once the strength adaptation is maximized, it starts to fade. If total work requires so much healing time that by the time your body has finished healing and adding new tissues your strength is back to what it was at the last workout you will have reached your limit with whatever program you are using, and it will be time to change to something better suited to continuing your progress.

That means that at a certain point, if you use the 5x5 scheme, you will stagnate no matter what you do. Don't get me wrong, you'll be ridiculously strong, but not yet at the limit of your potential. Why? because you will get to a point where doing that much work necessitates so much recovery that your strength will be back pretty much to baseline before you work out again. In order to continue gaining strength at that point you have to decrease total work and increase intensity. That means that instead of doing 5x5 with around 90% of your max you start doing heavy singles, both for warm up and for the work sets. So if you do 3 warm up singles and 4 work singles you are doing 7 reps total, far less than the 25 you do with the 5x5 program. By working to your training max with the work singles, you will be forcing your body to make pure strength adaptations, but because the total work volume is so much lower your body will need less recovery. You should use an intermediary program, teh 5,4,3,2,1 program, which starts with the warm up of 5 reps and goes all the way to a training max single of 1 rep. A few months of this prepares the body for pure singles training.

I want to make it CLEAR that this type of program is for advanced lifters. If you aren't able to do 5-8 reps with your bodyweight on bench, or at least 1.5x BW on squats, you don't need to go past the 5x5 program to these other two yet. For high level gymnasts, you can probably use the 5,4,3,2,1 program and then the singles after a few months. I don't know that anything besides thick bar bench and thick bar curls are really worth it for pro gymnasts, but I guess that's up to the individual athlete.

RandomHavoc said:

Here is the reasoning.

In order to increase strength, you need to recruit as much muscle fibres as possible while its under tension of load. The highest intensity you can perform for 1 rep is called your 1 rep max (1RM). Now obviously there is a trade-off between the number of reps you do and the muscle fibres recruited. So the more reps done, the less recruited.

1-5 reps per set : maximal strength gains.

6-8 reps per set: middle ground between strength and hypertrophy.

9-12 reps per set: hypertrophy.

13+ reps per set: muscular endurance.

So by doing the amount of reps you are talking about, you are not taxing your body. You are not recruiting much muscle fibres, therefore there is little incentive for your muscles to adapt to a higher intensity by getting stronger.

I recommend reading this article posted by Coach Sommer: http://gymnasticbodies.com/articles1.html

It talks why gymnasts can get the type of body and strength they have without weights. Upper body wise, gymnastics are probably unrivalled in the strength they can achieve. This should respond to your question about getting stronger legs via bodyweight as well. You don't need weights. Deleveraging your body is key to making something like a squat or pushup 10x harder than you might think.

If you wish to learn more about how your body responds to adaptation via weight training, I stronger emphasise you read Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. For bodyweight, absorb everything Coach Sommer writes about. Currently, I'm reading Charles Palequin (sp?) and I'm learning quite a bit still.

Hope that helps.

*EDIT: I didn't realise there was a page 2 to the thread before I posted this. This post is probably not relevant anymore. My apologies.

Thanks for the answer, and I assure you your quote is not irrelevant.

Alright so let's say that I can do 12 chinups max, what you're saying is that I should make many sets with like 5-6 chinups? Does it still work if for the first set, or the first 2 maybe, I don't feel anything and I do them really easy?

I have a little pushup routine that I made up some time ago, right now I can't do it anymore, it'll probably take me 3 days to do it again, but it's this one:

I did 5 sets of 13 pushups, with 30s rest between each one; if I did 12 reps, I think I did them easily, and if I did 14, then I couldn't finish it, so 13 was the number then.

So you say that kind of training is better? Like that pushup routine I did?

Rampage said:

Alright so let's say that I can do 12 chin ups max, what you're saying is that I should make many sets with like 5-6 chin ups? Does it still work if for the first set, or the first 2 maybe, I don't feel anything and I do them really easy?

No. The right way to program this is to add enough weight to where you simply cannot do more than 6. That is what we will call your working weight. Once you know what that is, a good progression is something like this for the 5x5 setup:

as a part of general warm up, do a set of 5-6 chins with just body weight.

for the 5x5: 1 set of 5 with about a third of working weight, 1 set of 5 with 2/3 to 3/4 of your working weight, and then 3 sets of 5 with your working weight.

I have a little push up routine that I made up some time ago, right now I can't do it anymore, it'll probably take me 3 days to do it again, but it's this one:

I did 5 sets of 13 push ups, with 30s rest between each one; if I did 12 reps, I think I did them easily, and if I did 14, then I couldn't finish it, so 13 was the number then.

So you say that kind of training is better? Like that push up routine I did?

Sort of. The idea that your reps are limited by your ability is spot on, but adding reps is not. You want to add weight or do harder progressions. Also, if you are not doing full range, dead hang pull ups, you need to work into using full range, dead hang pull ups. That means that each rep starts with locked elbows hanging from the bar, and then goes all the way up to chin at least one inch over the bar. Then you go all the way down to dead hang before you start your next rep. If you aren't doing them that way you are cheating yourself They are much harder.

Not exactly.

If you do about pullups and they were relatively easy, then you still won't be working strength since the resistance wasn't enough to get your muscles stimulated. From a numerical perspective, if it's easy, let's say you only use only 50% (a guesstimate) of recruited muscle fibres for the set. No matter how many reps or sets you add, it won't go past that level and thus, once again, your muscles won't have the incentive to get stronger.

Absolutely the same for your pushups, you're still talking about double digit reps. You're working your muscles endurance.

All hope is not lost! There are other variables you can use to increase resistance and intensity. A few examples:

1) Hold your pullup at the very top of the movement for 3-5 seconds.

2) Work the negatives. Take at 3-5 seconds to lower yourself to the bottom of the position.

3) Like slizzardman said don't cheat. If you're not using full ROM (range of motion), you are not recruiting all muscle fibres. Quality over quantity!

4) Do them on rings if you have them.

Try to do 12 reps now. If you still can, post here and we'll figure something else out.

1) Raise your legs for pushups by finding an elevated station (a box works fine).

2) Bring your arms closer to your hips.

3) Do them on rings if you have them.

4) Dump the pushups and start working hardstand pushups (for a million different reasons). Chances are, you won't be able to do even a partial ROM HSPU even with the aid of the wall.

Slizzardman, if weights were a factor in his programming, don't you believe he/she would benefit better from a 3x5 rep scheme and look for linear progression since he's nowhere near taxing his system. Most beginning improvements would be based on neurological adaptation anyways. Personally, I always considered the 5x5 method to be intermediate. But maybe that would depend on your level of performance? I'm interested in this optimal strength curve. And I'll get back to you after I analyse the different factors that Charles Paliquin talks about (including volume).

slizzardman said:

Rampage said:

Alright so let's say that I can do 12 chin ups max, what you're saying is that I should make many sets with like 5-6 chin ups? Does it still work if for the first set, or the first 2 maybe, I don't feel anything and I do them really easy?

No. The right way to program this is to add enough weight to where you simply cannot do more than 6. That is what we will call your working weight. Once you know what that is, a good progression is something like this for the 5x5 setup:

as a part of general warm up, do a set of 5-6 chins with just body weight.

for the 5x5: 1 set of 5 with about a third of working weight, 1 set of 5 with 2/3 to 3/4 of your working weight, and then 3 sets of 5 with your working weight.

I have a little push up routine that I made up some time ago, right now I can't do it anymore, it'll probably take me 3 days to do it again, but it's this one:

I did 5 sets of 13 push ups, with 30s rest between each one; if I did 12 reps, I think I did them easily, and if I did 14, then I couldn't finish it, so 13 was the number then.

So you say that kind of training is better? Like that push up routine I did?

Sort of. The idea that your reps are limited by your ability is spot on, but adding reps is not. You want to add weight or do harder progressions. Also, if you are not doing full range, dead hang pull ups, you need to work into using full range, dead hang pull ups. That means that each rep starts with locked elbows hanging from the bar, and then goes all the way up to chin at least one inch over the bar. Then you go all the way down to dead hang before you start your next rep. If you aren't doing them that way you are cheating yourself They are much harder.

Don't know why you bring up pullups...I said pushups...

Anyways, the pushups that I do are declined with my feet on a 23 inch tall bench and with pushup bars that allow me to go deeper; I don't do "regular" pushups on the floor and with my bare hands.

These are the ones I use for pushups, always: http://www.homefitnessequipment.org/Pro ... HP-001.jpg

Also, I always do pullups from a dead hang and with the full ROM; I don't like cheating on any exercise and I never have.