Stiff Leg Windmill: MN/PE1>iM - what weight to aim for?

Hi,

Got my first sets of these tomorrow and have done them a little before. What sort of weight should I be using for them as they are mobility exercises? 

Enough to complete the five reps in perfect form with ease or just enough to have a couple left "in the tank?"

im guessing five see if five each side I'm looking at 8-12kg

AT least 10% of bodyweight . Personally i seen the best result with 16 kg and super slow negatives.

Thanks Alessandro,

If I can't get the reps with at least 10% of bodyweight should I consider it a failed IM and stay on that until I can? 

Is this something we should be working up to?  Or can we start with 10% right off the bat?  So far I've just been using 3kg, which I thought was ok (same weight I use for the russian twists.

I too started at the same weight I was using for the Russian Twists (4-5kg) but quickly found that it was too light to provide any resistance to keeping my arm and shoulder stable during the iM.  Having read another thread in which heavier weights were suggested, I've jumped up to 10kg and feel it's just about right for me now, a couple of weeks in to GST.  I anticipate increasing gradually over the coming months from here.  Alessandro, I will give the super slow negatives a try and see what difference that makes.

The thing I'm trying to figure out is which muscles I should be focusing on activating during the iM.  The video example shows a finish position with the leading arm back through the legs, but the move feels quite close to the yoga posture Trikonasana.  I keep feeling the desire to try to fully rotate my torso and extend both my arms as in that move, but I think I might be barking up the wrong tree! 

It does bear similarities to an old school trikonasana, though it's more diagonally aligned than the modern presentation of trikonasana. For GST purposes this is a active stretch, so putting that hands down on the floor isn't going to cut it, as you need to actively support and control the movement at all times. Other than that you can think of the same cues for your torso as you would in trikonasana.

I managed to complete the required sets with the 16kg but I was feeling it in a good way!

56 minutes ago, Cole Dano said:

It does bear similarities to an old school trikonasana, though it's more diagonally aligned than the modern presentation of trikonasana. For GST purposes this is a active stretch, so putting that hands down on the floor isn't going to cut it, as you need to actively support and control the movement at all times. Other than that you can think of the same cues for your torso as you would in trikonasana.

Thanks Cole, that's a very helpful explanation.  In my head I interpret the 'diagonal' part as meaning that the movement has a torso rotational and side-bend element (like trikonasana), but also an element of forward folding.  I can picture how that would lead to the end position from the video, and I'll focus on that next time I do this move.

Hmm, I think I'm revisiting this >im and am not using enough weight with my dumbbell. Going to give that 10% a go and see how it feels. Thanks for this tip. 

I'm guessing that for those few of us who have a lot of extra bacon around the belly, that the % of body weight benchmarks should be calculated on lean mass?

Lean mass? I say use your bodyweight wherever it is  and go from there. I don't think bringing out the calipers is all too necessary.

Is this a strength exercise? How important is the weight not being too light?

I also have a newbie question about reps in the twists. I assume that 30 total means 15 per side. Is that correct?

Hi Michael there are not twisting rep in stiff leg windmill or 30 reps total in the corresponding PE.

The weight improves the shoulder girdle range of motion while giving some aid for legs stretching.

For Russian twists, 30 reps means 15 per side if that is what you are referring to Michael.

For beginners starting stiff leg windmills 3-5 kg is plenty. The emphasis is on both the hips (adductors/hamstrings) and shoulders (rotation movement). It is not a strength exercise, it is a mobility exercise, emphasis should be on building smooth, controlled motion and regaining full range of motion both on hips and shoulders. 

Eventually the bottom hand will reach through the legs and touch the floor behind the body, and the upper arm will experience very large amounts of rotation. 

Adding more weight will build more strength through the range and help the body open up, but do not be in a rush!

Thanks Wesley!

When you are stiff it will feel like a strength workout. All of the iMs are active mobility, so you will build strength through range.

I also have two questions about this exercise:

1. Since Windmills also target leg muscles, am I right to assume that it should be performed with forward pelvic tilt or at least neutral?

2. I experience a grinding sensation without pain in the shoulder while rotating the shoulder joint on the downward movement. It's actually worse and much more noticeable in my right shoulder. 

I don't know much about anatomy, but my guess is that there are some tendons snapping over a bursa or a bone. It's like a "klick, klick" sound.

Should I reduce the weight (3 kg)? Are there maybe stretches I could use to alleviate the grinding? 

Starting with PPT at the top of the windmill is good and will help build that habit for later.

Definitely drop the weight if you're feeling clicks in your shoulder. This typically stops or significantly reduces small pops and clicks. I have had many students start with 1/2kg or less with this exercise and gradually increase to around 3kg.

As Wes said above, slowly working towards adequate ROM first is your priority over adding weight.

Consider posting a form check of this movement.

Thanks for the help! I'll consider posting a form check later. Just have to figure out how to do that technically.

I just tried the exercise with 1,5 kg. Shoulder still has the "clicking" sensation.

I have no problem rotating the weight 360 degrees from top to bottom. It's just the "clicking" that iritates me.

Would you say that performing this exercise without "clicking" is necessary for mastery?

Hi Roman let's see the video and go from there

Shoulder clicking is very common and yes most likely from tendons flicking over bony prominences on the humeral head. Most often these work themselves free with all the mobility drills like Xiaopengs, tables, dislocates etc.

If it doesn't cause pain don't be to stressed by it but ultimately you want to try to avoid it. Try slowing the shoulder rotation down and finding a path of movement that at least lessens the clicking.

Once the body lowers forward you want the pelvis to move into APT, particularly if you are going to open the hips maximally 

And about the rotation of the arms under the weigth, it gets better over time? i feel my left shoulder locked and so i can't let it completly vertical when rotationing

On July 24, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

Lean mass? I say use your bodyweight wherever it is  and go from there. I don't think bringing out the calipers is all too necessary.

Agreed… that will "force" your body to get rid of that extra bacon  ;-)  ;-)  @Wayne Smith

On June 14, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Alessandro Mainente said:

AT least 10% of bodyweight . Personally i seen the best result with 16 kg and super slow negatives.

@Alessandro Mainente I did my first Foundation session today, and was able to do the windmills with 15% of my bodyweight (kettlebell), with the bottom arm far behind me in the bottom position. (I used to do kettlebell windmills, 20% bodyweight, 15+ reps, (so my body remembered the movement,)  but the hand touching between the legs, so this was new to me and very pleasant stretch). Shall I next time try for 20% bodyweight weight or is it getting too much weight? I suspect it's ok to increase more and more, as long as I have a great form?  Also, with "negatives", you mean going down super slowly? Or returning back to the standing slowly? I suspect going down? Just want to make sure.