HS, PL and FL

Just a short video from a recent work-out.

I have been doing some free-standing handstands, not sure about the form though. Seems I tend to arch to much in the back.

During this cycle I have stepped up from tuck to adv. tuck PL. Just trying to get into a good position, not striving for long holds yet.

FL - previosuly I have been doing these from my rings. However, I have started working out at another gym, and I am not sure about bringing and setting up the rings.

I have seen very poor development in the FL - little if any improvement over the past 6+ months, it might even have gone backwards. The transition to single-bar has decreased my ability. I have been told that most often FL problems correlates into core problems.

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Hey mate,

Nice work, with the HS U need to open the shoulders more, which takes time. i think everyone's handstand starts out a bit like this and getting a nice open shoulder angle takes a little while. Good wall HS will really help with this.

looking at the wall behind you instead of the floor beneath you will help your body line in the handstand.

slizzardman said:

looking at the wall behind you instead of the floor beneath you will help your body line in the handstand.

+1, this is also good for getting a better feel of how to balance. But you definately need to open your shoulders more, maybe they are inflexible?

In order to reduce the arch you have to open more your shoulders. What has worked for me is to adjust first the legs (imagine that you want to pike a bit, then even you think that you are starting to pike, then you will be probably aligned, as you are used to be comfortable and stable at an arched position) and then open shoulders.

If you have an arched position and try to open shoulders more you'll find you are arching even more to compensate.

Doing the wall extensions and HS against the wall (stomach against the wall) have helped my shoulders open up. From other videos/pictures, you want a straight line from your hands to your feet. As I've started to straighten out a bit, I've found I can hold my HS longer.

Ido Portal has an excellent video for correcting handstand position on his youtube channel, "portaldo"

Great advice on the handstand. Alot of stuff to work on. Do you think that it is in contradiction to this form clean-up to keep working the freestanding?

Do you have any notes on the planche or front lever?

I have asked about the front lever on numerous occasions ( and how to proceed ), and I still can't figure out what it is that isn't working out for me. Maybe it is just a combination of bad specific anatomy ( long legs, short torso ) and too weak a core?

I don't have much insight into the planche, but I have continued to work my freestanding handstand while correcting form and it's working great for me!

I do have pretty good insight into the front lever, though this is something of a different perspective since I have developed my strength there through alternate methods. I have found that heavy weighted pull-up work in various grips, body levers, weighted inverted sit-ups, and some weighted tuck FL rows have helped a lot. I derive most of my strength from using whatever device or exercise will lead to the most strength gain in the muscles being used, and I bring that strength to bear in the static work. I have found that my using each more or less equally allows the static work to help my outside strength efforts, and that my non-gymnastic strength gains help my static work. I honestly do think that this is the future of intelligent training, but that's me. All I can give you is how I am progressing, and the methods I use. They are not the only way,l but they afford me average to above average progress in all the statics that I work as well as increasing bodily strength in all areas. That's my main goal, to be the strongest me I can be in all ways, and I employ every method at my disposal to that end.

The planche isn't really an issue, as I have been making good progress. The front lever has been me head ache for a while. I really like your suggestions, Slizzardman.

A little of topic:

For the time being I think I need to take a step back from my normal training. I have acquired a slight ache in my left forearm, not painful, just some minor discomfort, I think it is an inflammation / tendinitis or the pre-stage to this . It has been there for some time, and it has been most apparent after having weight full body weight on the hands - especially after planche. Nothing to note in the right arm. The discomfort has not increased, but since it has not disappeared either - and I do certainly not like the idea of full blown tendinitis.

For the time being I will increase the focus on leg and core work. Thanks for the inputs.

- If anyone has insights into tendinitis - how to treat and how to avoid it in the future, then help would be appreciated.

Fryk, http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2009/08/on-tendonitis/

Practically speaking, back off on either the volume or intensity, to the point where you don't aggravate it, work weighted reverse curls with dumbbells, do the wrist/forearm stretches, and massage. Also, I've hopped on the fish oil bandwagon, since I have started taking around 9g per day my shoulder pain has gotten better, so I think it is having an effect. I am surprised, but happy. Use planche leans and the swiss ball planche to work your strength without hurting yourself while you heal. Since it's not that bad, after a month at the most you'll be working again discomfort free. The trick then is to KEEP doing the above stuff to prevent further injury. That's the lesson I have learned

Rehab is basically never over.

I will cut back on the planche and handstands - maybe also the front lever, and do the rehab work. Would be stupid to get a chronic injury. I have recently started doing shoulder pre-hab / re-hab work with rubber bands, and it looks like there should be some forearm, wrist stuff there as well.

Is there any decent upper body exercises that doesn't put a strain on the forearms?

Thick handle lifting(deadlift and bicep curls) and reverse curls will build up the vulnerable areas so you recover and don't get hurt again.

Just to be on the same page here, when do you suggest doing these exercises - load / rep / sets? - also I don't think I have access to thick handles.

My plan would be to take a cut-back from anything putting load on the forearms ( for a week or two ), and then ease into it again slowly with some re-hab exercises. But this would mean a decrease in the strength, so I guess I wanted to know if some half decent upper body exercises that doesn't put load on the forearms is available. Might be the best thing to rest, but I have become addicted to working out.

All you need for the thick handle lifts is a piece of pvc. For curls and deadlifts, you can use 6 inch wide, 2 or 2.5 inch diameter pvc. You can usually buy pre-cut 2 foot lengths at Home Depot or Lowe's for two dollars. A ten foot pipe is only 6 bucks, so you could just buy that and cut it. Cut the pipe with a hack saw, it's fast and easy. IF you don't have that, you can use a shoelace or dental floss. You just cut a long piece of floss, rope, or lace and put it around the far side of the pipe. Then you pull back and forth, and friction generates enough heat to cut through the pipe. Home depot might even cut it for you if you don't have the tools yourself and are unwilling to spend a few dollars to buy them.

Once you cut the pipes to a 6 inch length or so, you cut a 0.5 inch groove lengthwise down the pipe. That lets you slip it over any bar you choose, and then VOILA!!!?! You have Thick Handle Lifts!

In both cases, especially because you are injured, you want to start off nice and light. Find a weight that you can do 6-10 reps with and feel no pain or discomfort. One set a day is good for rehab. A 5 gallon bucket of rice will also help you. Use the search function and look for "rice bucket" to find the thread with instructions, if you need them. Or use youtube.

Backing off of your high-load exercises is good, but taking a total break is bad bad bad. Neutral grip pullups and heavy end-ROM movements are your best bet for keeping your muscles strong while your forearms recover. Front levers should not aggravate your injury, but the FL rows and pulls might, so be careful with them. L-sit on PB should be fine, work back to floor as you can. HSPU should also be ok. Obviously your lower body and core training should not be impacted, though you may need to back off of body levers if they hurt the elbows.

Use this recovery time to concentrate on your legs, HSPU, and some FL, along with at least maintaining everything else! Use this as an opportunity to put extra energy into another area, instead of a bump in the road.

Making equipment is a little fetish of mine. So thick handles will be the next thing. There is nothing like home made equipment. Just feels better.

What exactly is heavy end ROM movements? Maybe it is just my lack of fantasy.

It is quite easy to get a little over thrown by injuries, they tend to test determination. I am considering quitting the FL all together. There has been no progress and the work load and recovery could be spent on something else entirely. But primarily there is the psychological aspect: How much effort is an exercise worth, when there is no return?

Without being able to see you perform in the gym, it's hard to tell you how to improve your FL. My personal suggestion is to back off a little on the actual FL work, and work heavy pull-ups, core work, and bent over rows. I know this runs contrary to the general consensus on this forum, but when you are not progressing, something in that chain is not strong enough to let the rest of the muscles get stronger. Weighted work is easier to focus on your weak areas with than body weight exercises, because overall they are easier to perform. You work the individual muscles more and get them strong.

I'd structure two workouts a week for you tailored to strengthening your body enough to get back to the FL and make some progress.

I'd make workout 1 like this:

5 sets of 5 pull-ups, weighted if you can do more than 5 with bw. One set each grip, of regular, wide, neutral, reverse (chin up grip) and then your weakest grip again for the 5th set. Do these on the pullup bars.

4 sets of bent over rows as follows:

10 reps chest supported(on incline bench set at 30 degrees or so), 6 reps barbell, 8 reps single arm dumbbell, 10 reps barbell again. Of course these rep numbers are with a weight you can only DO that many with. You can also just stick with one apparatus, but because I am not sure exactly where you are weak, using the different varieties will make sure we work whatever is weak.

core work: heavy decline situps, inverted situps if you can and if there is a place for them, and HLL. See the end of this post for situp notes!

Workout 2:

4 sets of feet supported(on a bench or swiss ball) rings reverse pushup. AKA foot supported FL row. Feet as high as the grip on the rings if possible. This helps you train the muscles in a less stable position. Workout 1 is more for raw strength, workout 2 is more for stability with strength as a secondary. Each set is 6-10 reps with perfect form. If you are supporting with the heel, at the height of your grip on the rings, and you can do more than 1 reps, you need to put a weight plate, ankle weights, anything to add weight, a bookbag on your chest, whatever, add some weight to bring the number back down to that range.

4 sets of 5 pullups, on the rings. Weighted if you can do more than 5. Don't worry about the advanced ring pullups for these, just work on going as heavy as you can for 5 reps, 4 sets. I would tell you to use complete ROM, go down to a dead hang with every rep for both workout 1 and workout 2.

core work: Body lever progression, HLL, and inverted situps. In that order. If you can't do inverted situps or there is no good place for them, do the heavy decline situps. do NOT add weight until you are doing the decline situps at the highest decline. If you can not do weighted decline situps, don't bother with inverted situps. You won't be able to do them well enough for it to benefit you.

Situp form: do NOT pull with the top of your foot. Squeeze your glutes the whole time and pull your heels towards your glutes. That will keep your hip flexors from pulling your spine and creating back tension. Your hip flexors get PLENTY of work with the HLL and the body levers, you won't lose anything.

I'd do this for a few months, and just test yourself on your FL once a week to see how you are progressing. You should see fairly good results. After a few months, once you are convinced of your progress, reduce to one weighted workout a week and use the other for FL rows and pulls and whatnot. Once you get to a flat straddle FL, you can probably do away with the weighted work all-together if you want to. You should have all the strength you need at that point.

I think a new approach is in order and this weighted model seems to cover all the bases.

Just a few clarifying questions:

Do you suppose it makes a difference whether or not the reverse pushups and the pull ups are done on a bar instead of rings?

Your suggested two a week FL work outs covers all upper body but pushing, do you think there is to much work load in these work outs to combine them with some pushing exercises for instance?

Eh... The rings will develop more strength and stability, but the bar will make it easier to concentrate on the movement and proper form at first. Once you've developed proper form I'd move to the rings, personally. That should take 2 weeks or so.

Oh man, I'm just talking about what you can do to build the FL! There's more than enough recovery ability in your body to do your pushes, and personally I say you should do as many pushes as you are pulls. Push, pull. Push, pull. I'd use the gymnastics progressions for your pushes unless you are stalling there as well. I'd do handstand and dip work inbetween pullup sets and I'd do PPP or similar stuff with the reverse push ups. On rings if possible.

This is turning in to quite a long thread, and a little of topic from the original post. Mainly because I have too many questions.

I would like to state that I am very happy with the effort you have put into this Slizzardman, and everyone else as well. This will save me from wasting any more time with FL progress. ( Or injuring my self )

Programming

I was thinking that this FL work-out might fit into a 3-1-2-1 schedule:

1: Accessory work: Handstand and presses, Backlever exercises, forearm strenghtening.

2: Legs + lower back

3: FL workout + pushing

4: Rest

5: Legs, lower back

6: FL workout + pushing

7: Rest

The leg "day" will be short, and with this template there will also be less static work than in my previous programme. I am not sure where to place the actual planche work. Handstand training will be dispersed allover the programme, when I get back from injury.

Just make sure you aren't training super hard on more than 3 days. Feel free to experiment, but you will find that 2-3 full body workouts with full effort are far more productive than a split schedule.

Hey Fryk,

remember my suggestion on another thread? 1 Frontpull - negative combined with 3 FL-Pulls for 3 sets? I took a short brake since then because of forearm pain. But my frontpull-negative (one leg straight) is very slow (nearly stopping at horizontal).

A different tool:

Last week I tried frontpull - partial reps in the top range (inverted hang - lower with straight legs as far down as you can and return under control to inverted hang).

Last week was bad, only a few degrees. Today was great! I nearly reached 45 degrees on the second workout. Thats what most of the gymnasts do in my gym: Increase ROM over time. And it looks like its working quite fast. I do 3 reps and on the 4th I come down with one leg straight as slow as possible.

If I have enough time, I work the statics in the morning and FBE in the evening 3 times a week (Thanks slizzardman :wink: )

I work up to 60-70 seconds (not exactly sure since I count my breaths instead of looking at a clock) in adv. tuck. But I feel I really need the straight-body-work in addition to the statics. I tried body levers but they hurt my neck so I switched to frontpulls - partial reps.

There are probably many ways to get that damn FL. Mine will be statics and straight body work. Think about it, start it and stick with it for a while.

Enjoy!

Weightlifters use similar methods to increase lifts. For bench, a very effective practice is to start with a weight much heavier(30-50 lbs or so) than the current max, set the bar on the pins in a power rack, and spend a few sets on the last 4-5 inches of the ROM. Then, every few weeks, a half inch or so piece of wood is placed under the bench supports while leaving the bar on the same pin height, increasing the ROM by a half in ch or so. As the lifter feels comfortable, he or she continues to add pieces until they are nearly doing complete ROM with the new weight.

It works.