MN-PE2-iM

For the Jefferson curls, I’m using 65 lbs. It could be a little more or less. But I need around that kind of load if the goal is to mobilize/articulate my spine. I’m used to doing these as a warm up for HS, etc. so I don’t want you to think I’m picking this number out of my hat.

I've been told that I have a titanium spine, which is not a compliment, as I would much prefer a bamboo one. Apparently, the ligamentous structures of my spine are very tightly-knit (?). My spine is straight-ish with a sharp angle at my lumbar, so I can appear anteriorly tilted when I'm in an end-range PPT. Even when my entire back is going to flexion from the top-down, there's a point where if you were close enough, you could see a convex curve right at the juncture of my glutes. 

Please note, I did the first two reps like the video course with straight legs. This way, I only feel the fascia stretch through my legs and all the way down to my feet. We know the body always follows the path of least resistance and the Gods know I don’t need to further lengthen my hamstrings –  NOT until my quads catch up (which is somewhere in between may years from today and not in this lifetime). Bottom line, it’s very hard for me to eccentrically load my lower back if I don’t use considerable load/gravity and pre-position my pelvis while pulling in opposite directions from the bottom up. I have to continuously contort myself in order to get to the most restricted area in my lumbar spine.

The last 3 reps are the way I normally do JC: with bent knees and more of an intentional PPT in order to feel the fascial opening through my lower back where I REALLY needed it. I hope that’s ok.
https://youtu.be/814K94y9RSI

Yes, these look much more like stiff-legged deadlifts than JCs. The last couple of reps had a better motion, but there is some work to be done to get that articulation happening

Ensure you start your reps from the top. Line yourself up first. I understand there are reasons for you to perform these with bent knees; I will let the guys with more authority on pathology address that point. Once you are steady, head goes down first, forehead goes forward and down. You'll need to actively work to keep as much of your body in that original line as possible whilst working down from the top. You do not untuck anything at the top as you go down, and your chin does not move from your chest until you have moved all the way back up.

The bar will need to stay much closer to your legs. You'll get this by actively compressing, hinging your body/legs like a pair of scissors, and you'll find you have to work fairly hard through the core to maintain most of your body in the line while you do this. Try to avoid piking back to counterbalance as much as you can; where it becomes most tempting to do so is where I find the best medicine on my own lower back.

Remember, in an ideal situation, you would be performing the curl at the top while the rest of your body is just hanging out. While the hang in the bottom position is an important part of the element, more so for most people who come in with stiff hamstrings, for you its the curl itself that is the focus. It will not be overnight, but these will move you in the direction of better spinal articulation with patience and consistency

Hope that is a start; I am sure others will jump in.

I agree with Jon. You need to keep those knees straight. Your lumbar spine will start to flex more as you spend more time with all different exercises. I have found that by doing Foundation, H1+2, stretching series and Tumbling I am getting better gains. I also manage to fit in Crossfit as well. This is how you will get the most benefit for your body. Rather than getting the benefit feom one exercise only the whole program works in an integrated way.

Thank Jon for articulating all those points so well! Clearly, I’ve been using JCs as a warm-up for SO long that I’m skipping the proper roll down starting at my cervical spine. Zeroing in to the trouble spot is absorbing my focus at the expense of other cues, I know well, but not applying. I was also trying to keep the tempo as the course video and maybe that’s messing me up too, since I usually perform these much slower. This morning after reading your post, I re-played my video and I couldn’t believe I missed my neck is independently acting up. This is why I appreciate so much having an educated eye/s watching over me!

I want to take a moment to acknowledge that all moderators/coaches are doing an OUTSTANDING job. The value of your contributions in this forum and community is beyond what ANY words of gratitude can express.

Mark, I’m with you in regards to an integrated movement approach where all the elements create a balanced whole. You nailed my chosen life path. I will re-shoot this again with Jon’s cues and straight knees.

In keeping with the guys above have already said, you may find that in order to do it more properly, you will indeed need to take some weight off. Particularly with the laundry list of knee issues you have.

You may even find a secondary benefit of these for you is greater knee stability.

I liked reading all the answers thus far. Another note on weight from personal experience. I trained 95# (50% BW) for a while as I felt this gave a good stretch at the bottom. However, I compromised individual spine curl form and good chin tuck so, I moved back to 45# bar and feel good focussed progress with curling each vertebra better. Been on this for a few blocs now and its way too easy this week.  I find I get enough complimentary, end range pike stimulis from the iMs in the press handstand course as well as front split stretch course.

Good luck,

Ryan

Thank you Cole for chiming in! I was thinking that myself as I shift my JC focus from lengthening my lower back “obsession” to more segmental articulation.

Laundry list of injuries?! That was just my knee, lol. Stay tune to my push-up post (coming soon) while I summon the courage to post it.

Ryan, I don’t have a consistent GB HS and Thoracic Bridge schedule (yet) as I’ve been focusing on establishing my F7 first. With my form checks now and the forum, I don’t have more time, but I’m getting closer to introducing HS a la GB. I used to train much more HS volume (5 sets of A, B, C, 4-6x / week) so I have to further study the materials. I can’t wait to getting all the rest of the pieces in place and feel like I’m following a training plan. Nothing more boring (and stupid) than being your own coach, which is why I love this forum!

3 hours ago, Ryan Bailey said:

I liked reading all the answers thus far. Another note on weight from personal experience. I trained 95# (50% BW) for a while as I felt this gave a good stretch at the bottom. However, I compromised individual spine curl form and good chin tuck so, I moved back to 45# bar and feel good focussed progress with curling each vertebra better. Been on this for a few blocs now and its way too easy this week.  I find I get enough complimentary, end range pike stimulis from the iMs in the press handstand course as well as front split stretch course.

Good luck,

Ryan

I also dropped the weight for JC once I started H2 iMs. There is something special about those inverted pike stretches. I am trying to figure out if the gains are from the traction effect on the spine or if it is the strength you gain in that range, which then lets body relax more into the stretch.

8 hours ago, Mark Collins said:

I also dropped the weight for JC once I started H2 iMs. There is something special about those inverted pike stretches. I am trying to figure out if the gains are from the traction effect on the spine or if it is the strength you gain in that range, which then lets body relax more into the stretch.

Whether its the known benefits of nutrition and oxygen being brought to the disc through spinal traction, or added sarcomeres in series of loaded, active lengthening, I think we will be scratching our heads for a while trying to figure out exactly what the gains are from.  The keys seem to be load and lengthening for the adaptation.

What we know is that it is working... And yes Mark, I agree... there is something special with these. 

9 hours ago, Mark Collins said:

I also dropped the weight for JC once I started H2 iMs. There is something special about those inverted pike stretches. I am trying to figure out if the gains are from the traction effect on the spine or if it is the strength you gain in that range, which then lets body relax more into the stretch.

Yeah, the inverted work on the stall bars are also some of my favorites

Per @Jon Douglas keen eyes: Start with head down. Chin does not move from chest until you have moved all the way back up! Bar much closer to legs by actively compressing. Avoid piking back. Knees straight per @Mark Collins.
Weight off per @Cole Dano @Ryan Bailey.

As Mark pointed out, you can’t get what you want from one single exercise... Now that you see that I’m ok mobile in my lower body posterior chain, but quite the opposite in my spine, what other exercises can I integrate from the GB system in order to mobilize my spine from different angles, positions. Hammering at JCs alone won’t be enough for my titanium spine. I used to do various pike variations, pancakes and HLL for trapeze warm-up and I see that similar work is further up the trail in Foundations and HS2.

Could someone point me to the appropriate GB spinal >iMs that would be most beneficial for me now.

Considering I’m familiar with hanging and piking under a trapeze bar (where you need to be pretty tight in order to clear your feet under the bar), I think I could start with inverted pikes pHS/PE1-3>iM, sooner rather than later. This is my trying to answer my own question, as I don’t expect to be given the answers in a silver platter. However your recommendations are much appreciated, including frequency and duration. I’m doing F7 M-W-F and will start HS1-2 Tues-Thu next week. Thank you all!

8 hours ago, Eva Pelegrin said:

what other exercises can I integrate from the GB system in order to mobilize my spine from different angles, positions

Transverse plane tends to unlock sagittal plane joint and neuromuscular dysfunction, via rotation.  Coach hammers away at this nicely in early Side Lever progressions. I really like progressive MN PE1 iM in the warm up; the appropriate weight (if not too light) increases mid spine rotation.  The exercises you mention are really nice (Pike/Pancake/HLL), but may benefit with added transverse plane in warm up.

I like your schedule for next week by the way; that's been my favorite lately.

@Ryan Bailey I agree about the unlocking wonders from transverse plane motion – specifically from thoracic Type 1 and Type 2 drills where you're combining different planes with out-of-sync pelvis rotation. 

As to the lumbar spine, eccentric loading + time (90 − 120 sec) + patience formula is where I’ve found greater success in creating a gradual adaptation/change in length. As you know, nothing is going to change without applying sufficient force/time/consistency to the tissues or brain washing, which I haven’t mastered yet. 

I would start with H2 iMs and the early rolling in Tumbling one. As you FL progressions improve so to will the lumbar flexion. Your lumbar spine looks more extended because you have decent sized glutes. Muscle not fat, so don't think I am saying you have a big butt. Some people have no glutes which makes the low back look different to those who have them. I am similar to you.

When doing any exercise that involves lumbar flexion just focus on the low back moving rather than the hamstrings.

Will do Mark. Thank you for your insights. I'm getting started with HS and TB practice this week. I need the TB to primarily iron and balance out my quads. When I take a break from bridging work it's so hard to come back to it. The more you wait the harder it gets. Once the above is in place, I can then look into Tumbling One and see if it's something I can do with my R knee. I just did an MRI to see where my knee is at since 2014. Never done tumbling before, but would like to try someday!

Perhaps I've misunderstood something throughout this thread and if so please forgive me. But it seems that if you're lacking spinal flexion that JCs will be the perfect remedy for this? I find that trying to actively press the hips forward and keeping the tail tucked for as long as possible really gets into the lumbar area. Similarly, on the ascent, focussing first on getting the hips stacked directly above the ankles as soon as possible has the same affect.

With your last video I think you have far more range in you, is there a reason you're stopping at that depth? 

Again, sorry if I've misunderstood the situation, but I believe sticking with the Jefferson Curls and being patient, or "hammering away" is precisely the right thing to be doing. Not to say that other work can't be added, but the pHS iMs are so heavily hamstring targeted - at least for me - and this doesn't seem to be what needs working for you? Again, please forgive me if I'm way of base here.

Max

Mark no need to apologize. Thank you for joining the conversation. You’re right in that JCs are perfect for facilitating lower back flexion – just not enough for me. In my experience, I need a combination of vectors and load applied to continue to see change, given my history, build, etc. I have a L5-S1 herniation, impinging the S1 nerve roots (bilaterally) so I also have to be careful. What’s worked best so far is traction and slight torque (global rotation) from the bottom up. Driving with my legs or hips to get in there and around all the soft tissue structures from different angles and positions. My thoracolumbar fascia is pretty dense too. 

5 hours ago, Maksis Riley said:

is there a reason you're stopping at that depth? 

That’s the way the cookie crumbles. I really don’t have more lumbar range. I could go down below my toes, but my LB (lower back) wouldn’t budge. The length would come from my hamstrings and not my LB. Like you said, structurally we all have different challenges. pHS gets your hamstrings, and for me pHS mobility allows me to talk to my LB.

It’s interesting you mention the qualities of patience and hammering away. If you have them, you also know their dark side. One of my mentors, Tom Myers, used to call me “the woman who won’t take a yes for an answer.”

I’ve been doing JCs for years and what you see now is better than when I was younger. Yet my spine is still pretty straight and feels stiff. There's no one secret, miraculous “exercise” in my view. It’s how you move (or not move) over the course of your life that is constantly reshaping your physical body and capabilities. 

Couldn't agree more with everything you said there Eva, I don't believe in a one size fits all either. And obviously you have been working at this for a long time and your injuries are far beyond the scope of my knowledge, I hope I didn't offend, I certainly didn't intend to.

Also very interesting that the pHS iMs get into your lumbar. Perhaps as it is proving the traction you spoke of. Whatever the reason, it's fantastic you know what does do the trick and I imagine with you training background they are less taxing than to the average trainee.

All the best with it Eva.

Max

No offense Maksis. On the contrary your tone is very cordial.

Eva, from who did you learn the Jefferson Curls?

I'm curious because it's not a widespread exercise.

Hi Stefano, honestly I can't remember a specific person. I think the first time I heard about JCs was in physical therapy circles with my fellows in Applied Functional Science (from the Gray Institute). Bright minds there too for sure.

Have you tried this release 

I have found sitting on my tail bone with knees bent and back against the couch helps to flex the lumbar spine. 

Dry needling of the the lumbar spine where the fascia attaches at the sacrum can also work wonders. 

Thanks for all your suggestions Mark! I know exactly what you mean about sitting on tailbone! I often sit 1 foot away from any back backrest/wall leaning back and intentionally slouching as much as I can when I'm sitting. Feels wonderful to slouch. I'll speak to my acupuncturist about working around my sacrum. She's traditionally done my entire spine including top sacrum only. As to the manual psoas releases, I’ve tried them before. I’m pretty comfortable with manual therapist digging in. I did the Rolfing series (with KMI practitioner) probably around 5 yrs ago. I was told my psoas is not tight (compared to most).

I have a feeling my issue is more spine intrinsic. My Multifidus, QL, erectors are probable suspects. My lower back “stiffness” in combination with “decent sized glutes” is something I want to talk to you about because when I lay down flat on a mat, I have a big gap between my lumbar and the mat. Hollow Body with bent knees or 25-30º diagonal legs is not a problem. But I can only lay flat with my knees bent, when I purposely pre-position my pelvis with a PPT. Only then, I can extend my legs out to about 18-20" height. If I try to lower them more, I lose my flat back because my spine won’t flex. Or I can lower them to parallel by raising my torso a bit while pulling my ribs down. 

Certainly, my core can get stronger, and it has been in the past, but I remember that since I started doing hollow body (a few years ago) my spine issue hasn’t improved much. HB holds continue to be a structural nightmare for me. There's a lot of clunky noises and movement going on too, which scares me a bit. I have mild lumbar dextroscoliosis and my L5-S1 disc herniation is compromising the lateral recesses bilaterally. L4-L5 posterior disc bulge and hypertrophic degenerative changes. 

My spine makes noises in many positions, from simple supine leg circles with strap to a lizard crawl. One PTs told me that I have spine instability because when he placed his hand in my lower back while doing a birddog, he felt the noises. Yet my form was solid and I feel stable even in one arm plank. I don’t think that guy gave me an accurate diagnosis. Another PT, who I trust (manual therapist) told me that my ligaments are simply very tight/rigid and my spine curves are practically non-existent. That makes more sense to me and it’s more consistent with my experience.

Another detail of the puzzle: with bridging, my Rectus Femoris and Vastus Lateralis and towards the anterior inferior iliac spine seem to be the areas where I feel most restricted, with that characteristic pulling sensation of the fascia “ripping” apart in long holds. The region of the femoral triangle also feels very dense for me. Today, I did my fist Tb session and I did better than I expected. When coach said we’re going to stretch the upper traps next, I was like “great! I need that.” But for me the Supine Trap Stretch is a wonderful lower back stretch.

Sorry, for the long post. Wanted to give you the whole picture as I'll be revisiting all these issues during F1.

I’ve been doing my JCs with feet together + straight legs per the coaches’ recommendation. As you can see from my video, my hamstring mobility is decent, whereas my lower back is not. I actually prefer doing JC with bent-legs for my spine (while maintaining PPT through the entire duration) because I feel it targets my lower back much more effectively than with straight legs.

It’s been my personal experience since Feb (and in the past), that straight-leg JCs do less for my lower back and more for my hamstrings, despite of my conscious rolling of one vertebra at a time. This could be due to the fact that my body follows the path of least resistance (hamstrings), my bone anatomy (pelvis orientation/hip socket, etc.), my NS perceiving a thread to my spine, my weirdness or anything in between. And of course, I could be wrong.

The key fact is that my lower back resists lengthening as soon as my pelvis begins to anteriorly rotate in the slightest.

My observation has been that if I don’t lock my PPT and tuck my pelvis the WHOLE time (like with slightly bent-knees), I don’t really feel much lengthening in my lumbar area. Luckily, I have a ‘good-enough’ body awareness to notice that if I have a proximal anchor point at both ends – like in stall bars drills or bent-leg JCs – then I can feel how my lower back tissues relax and ‘surrender’ to the stretch.

This is an important distinction; because when I focus on stretching my lower back in a more isolated way, without involving as much of my hamstrings, then I can actually relax into the stretch fast and easy and feel the work only in my lower spine where I want it.

I find that the straight-leg JCs continue to lengthen my hamstrings, which is great if you have tight hammies, but I don’t. My concern is that I’m exacerbating the tone discrepancy/imbalance between my tight lower back and flexible hamstrings and that my brain may interpret that as a threat to my pelvis stability.

Has anyone had a comparable experience?

Please let me know your thoughts as to how to progress this element for my particular body/situation, as I’d like to find a way to get MORE out of my JCs. I am here to learn and help others with similar issues. Thank you.

Hello Eva,

Thank you for your post :

I'm guessing its probably a combination of 2 things

1) Your APT that prevents you from feeling the JC in your mid to lower back

2) Your mid-lower back looks somewhat frozen to me.