Grip width for mastering dislocates and shoulder extension

This is a topic that has been discussed several times but if anyone has settled it once and for all I've missed that post. The generally accepted standard for dislocates is shoulder width + one hand width both sides. However, there are those who think 'shoulder width' is when your hands are vertical while others say your grip is shoulder width when your thumbs in an overgrip dislocate are aligned with the edges of your lateral deltoids. In the latter case your arms will not be vertical, of course, so it makes a difference.

 

As for shoulder extension, is it the same grip width as for dislocates, whichever of the two described above it might be?

 

Could Coach or someone else of high authority please settle this question once and for all? To make it clear, I'm only talking about the dislocate width required to progress, not the long-term goal of achieving a shoulder width grip.

 

Here is a video where I demonstrate different grip widths. At what second mark do I have mastery dislocate grip width?

 

https://youtu.be/FKSM0qbCigo

i'll tell you what I did: measured my shoulders from delt to delt + measured my hand width = marked a bamboo stick that i use for my exercises and use that.

to improve dislocate width focus on doing the mobility at a width where NO grinding occurs. you're actively moving a weight around, not painfully giving birth to one. focus on stretching pecs, biceps, lats. especially pecs.

That's one of the two rival "schools of thought" and the one I prefer. Should be close to the grip width at the 35s or 64s mark for me. I'm almost there with a wooden dowel; for my weighted work I still use the wider grips in the video.

 

But who will settle this question for good?

Shellberight said:

 

But who will settle this question for good?

the Course Notes, for one. I gave him the shortest answer based on his goal to simply move on. measure your shoulders, hands, tape a bar and get cranking.

as for the shoulder extension, whats so hard about grabbing it at the width you'd do a reverse plank? simple, because the immobile structures influence the way movements feel. stretch pecs, biceps. especially pecs. you'll see why after you focus on this for a while and grab the bars and go overhead on dislocates or behind you, doing shoulder extensions.

I don't have a problem progressing in these exercises and enjoy doing them but would like to be sure of the mastery benchmark. You can view the course video to see an acceptable grip width but the focus points don't tell you whether what is demonstrated is 'shoulder width' or 'shoulder width + one hand'. Looking at earlier posts you can see that the definition of shoulder width has caused a lot of unnecessary confusion on this forum.

 

 

I guess someone will tell me if I'm too wide when I post my form checks. One way to find out.

Shellberight said:

I don't have a problem progressing in these exercises and enjoy doing them but would like to be sure of the mastery benchmark. You can view the course video to see an acceptable grip width but the focus points don't tell you whether what is demonstrated is 'shoulder width' or 'shoulder width + one hand'. Looking at earlier posts you can see that the definition of shoulder width has caused a lot of unnecessary confusion on this forum.

I guess someone will tell me if I'm too wide when I post my form checks. One way to find out.

i did say you could measure your shoulders that and yes, posting a form check will help. theres reason to be confused because some people cant differentiate the activation between a pure shoulder extension like when you do a manna press or moving the head forward to compensate for tight chest. the temptation is to cave in and protract, instead of depress and retract. this is the reason why some of the folks posting iM2 crane their heads forward and get frustrated when they are asked to stand up straighter. i repeat, stretch the biceps, stretch the pecs and things will improve.

In my view the source of the confusion is not the width of one's shoulders (edges of deltoids). It arises from the definition of shoulder width grip and is not a matter of measurement. Do you

 

a) grip the bar with your arms hanging vertically and call it a shoulder width grip, or,

 

b) do you grip the bar so that your thumbs are aligned with your delts (assuming an overhand grip) and call that a shoulder width grip

 

To both of these you then add the width of one hand to get 'shoulder width + one hand' but you end up with different grip widths.

 

All your advice is good and appreciated but does not address this question.

Shellberight said:

In my view the source of the confusion is not the width of one's shoulders (edges of deltoids). It arises from the definition of shoulder width grip and is not a matter of measurement. Do you

 

a) grip the bar with your arms hanging vertically and call it a shoulder width grip, or,

 

b) do you grip the bar so that your thumbs are aligned with your delts (assuming an overhand grip) and call that a shoulder width grip

 

To both of these you then add the width of one hand to get 'shoulder width + one hand' but you end up with different grip widths.

 

All your advice is good and appreciated but does not address this question.

read what i said and you'll notice I did. in this case, b.

You did but the question is is this the 'official' standard or you're not sure but prefer to do them this way? Anyway, I'm gonna stick with your method unless someone tells me otherwise .

 

You touched on something else that is also important: stretches to improve iM2. I'll check what has been written on this already and might then start a new topic.

Not an official statement, but IMO you are really focusing on the wrong thing here, just work your dislocates as Keilani described in his first reply.  

Am I the only one doing those regularly (and by that I mean 15 reps every morning) and NOT progressing at all? I am stuck at the same width for more than a year now 

Luzian said:

Am I the only one doing those regularly (and by that I mean 15 reps every morning) and NOT progressing at all? I am stuck at the same width for more than a year now 

 

If you are not making progress, then you are not training them correctly.

 

1) Why are you training them every morning?  These should be 'training', not merely limbering.

 

2) How much weight are you using?

 

3) Why are you doing a single set and not performing sets in between the PEs?

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Shellberight said:

... Could Coach or someone else of high authority please settle this question once and for all? ...

 

https://youtu.be/FKSM0qbCigo

Shoulder width means exactly what it says; the width of the shoulders from medial delt to medial delt.  

 

Any other definition is simply playing semantic games.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

So reaching the width Keilani was referring to is sufficient to progress. Excellent, I just needed to be sure.

 

Read e.g. posts #10 and 11 here to see why I was confused: www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/21129-dislocate-width/?hl=%2Bdislocate+%2Bwidth

 

Re bar weight, I assume 7 kg is good.

Coach Sommer said:

 

1) Why are you training them every morning?  These should be 'training', not merely limbering.

 

2) How much weight are you using?

 

3) Why are you doing a single set and not performing sets in between the PEs?

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

1) I'm doing the single set of 15 reps in my daily warmup. But you're right, "training" was the wrong word. I should have written "doing them in my warmup and trying to get the width to decrease".

 

2) First I was trying with no weight (wooden stick) to get the width to decrease for about 6 months. Now I'm trying a weight first, width later strategy with currently 8lbs. My width is about 1.5 times should width.

 

3) See 1), it's currently not part of the progressions that I'm working on.

Luzian said:

... First I was trying with no weight (wooden stick) to get the width to decrease for about 6 months. Now I'm trying a weight first, width later strategy with currently 8lbs. My width is about 1.5 times should width ...

 

 

Sorry to be direct, but I have stated many times that weight needs to be added to dislocates in order for them to be effective for adults.

 

All of the time you spent with an unweighted bar was wasted time.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Luzian,

I'm doing these as extra iM work a couple of times a week. At first I only trained with a dowel which allowed me to reduce the width steadily. My intention was to reach the required width then start doing them weighted. This might have worked but us not ideal. As I started doing them weighted my progress has accelerated and I'm also making strength gains. Currently I first limber up with the dowel, then use a 2 kg bar to get to as narrow a grip as possible. Then I do strength work with a sligtly wider grip in standing and prone positions with a 7 kg bar. Finally I try to reach new rom territory with the dowel. This has been working well for me and my shoulders and back feel great afterwards. Just my 2c worth.

Luzian, are you aware of this (= are you practicing the correct exercise?):

https://www.facebook.com/GymnasticBodies/posts/1072209652802734

(this should be a sticky in this forum, btw!)

 

I'd been struggling with this mobility exercise for at least a month until I found the video above. Now, 4 months later I'm at shoulder + 1 hand width with 2.5kg. Progress was not exactly linear, especially the first few weeks were really frustrating, but then something clicked and things started to improve.

 

I'm doing these in sets of 5 (as per the instructions), but the first 2 or 3 sets are more like warmup sets, with wider grip, and I gradually make it narrower in each subsequent set - until it feels almost too much. I also vary the weight, on bad weather days I go as low as 1.25kg, on stud days I experiment with 5kg (it is heavy, 7kg must be a monster! )

Gabor, 7 kg is certainly challenging for me for the sets of 3-5 reps I do so the grip has to be a bit wider than with a lighter bar, but the true monster is the long-term goal of 20 kg at shoulder width ☺

Thanks for all your feedback. It's most valuable when direct and it's much appreciated!

 

That video from BodyTree was unknown to me yet, but indeed, that is really helpful. Now I have a few ideas on what to change for the coming weeks...

Coach Sommer said:

Sorry to be direct, but I have stated many times that weight needs to be added to dislocates in order for them to be effective for adults.

All of the time you spent with an unweighted bar was wasted time.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

This is something I am seeing more and more. I'd elaborate to say that the stronger (read strong with a token stretch after a weights workout) adults I work with are, the less responsive they are to unweighted mobility work. It's gotta be opened up, it's not going to change unless it's given something to adapt to.