Started by Ryan Bailey, February 2, 2016 · 67 Replies · 24,917 Views
Never said the food wasn't nutritionally superior or that you wouldn't garner some good natural movement, sunlight, fresh air, etc..
Only arguing that, from a performance standpoint, you are likely not gathering enough net energy to fuel what GB requires. Don't think anyone could argue against that. Combine with hunting and fishing, however...it's possible.
Foraging is definitely a cool pastime though and i could see myself getting into it.
Coach,
Incredible article on the Hadza and information from your conversations with Robb. Thanks for sharing and I would like to hear more if you ever have time to share.
A few things on the article:
1) I'm jealous of the hip mobility they have in those pictures. Did you see how they are able to crouch down?
2) I'm also jealous of that man who is probably 8% body fat and eats honey.
3) I was taken back by the photo of the 4 year old boy practicing bow and arrow next to his other young sister.
(So, Doug and Coach, lets see who can be the first to find wild honey this year on their hikes. I have heard about it, but have never seen it myself)
Also, speaking of the other foods they eat, I think it was regarding the Hadza where I read about their nutritional intake of tubers you mentioned. I was reading about how the tubers were somehow contributing to the internal environment for their diverse gut bacteria.
-Sean: I liked your questions and thought you had good points. Regarding this one:
11 hours ago, Sean Murphey said:How is foraging beneficial to athletic performance?
I'll let this gentleman from Coach's article give you the answer in this bad ass photo:
(Pictured with honeycomb... I'd say he's earned his carbs
)
I would say he is capable of athletic performance as well but maybe not GST specific. Can you imagine if Coach worked with him?
Seriously though, I don't have the answer to your question as I have not met anyone who forages, hunts, or gathers 100% of their food. (Maybe Doug does this)
However, I have dug into the research the last few years, getting pretty deep in the weeds, analyzing the synergy between the physical movement required for each foraging skill (Example canoeing for wild rice, or long periods of deep bending and upper body weight bearing activities for gathering nuts) and how it compares in its effects on the human body when ingesting the constituents of that single food gathered. For example, the marriage of both physical activity and eating and its effects on blood and tissues is, to me at least, very interesting to look into; maybe to detailed to share more about it here.
I think what you are after Sean, is athletic performance and gathering enough food for good performance... I think you may have answered that with the addition of hunting in your last post.
Try it Sean and tell us how it goes!
6 hours ago, Leonhard Krahé said:I remember listening to one of Robb Wolf's podcasts a while ago, the topic was "primitive survival". He talked about taking part in a "experimental archaeology/documentary" kind of thing called "I, caveman" where the group basically re-enacted living (and, of course, foraging) in the paleolithic era
Thanks for mentioning this Leonhard. I am going to have to try and find more information about Robb's experience here. This looks very interesting and I'd love to learn more of his details regarding foraging.
Great comments, Ryan. I am nowhere near 100% foraging. I'm afraid that would be a full time job. If you count meat, I eat self obtained food close to every day. Without counting meat, it is probably daily in the summer, but only weekly in the winter. I wish it were more. However, it can be a great supplement, increase the variety of foods you eat, act like gardening without the space needs of gardening, and most of all...it is fun! Not everything we do needs to improve our training. they may improve our quality of life and health without being specifically a benefit to training. However, as Ryan points out, it very well may! If you eat that many veggies and greens, and you have to walk and stoop and squat and bend and carry to collect them, you are going to be a much better mover.
There was a recent study looking at the microbiota in the gut of the Hadza, and compared with other tribes in Africa. They were all different to mild degrees, and all dramatically different from the european (Italian) microbiota. It was, as you point out, related to the dirt they were eating on their tubers and veggies. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140415/ncomms4654/full/ncomms4654.html
I will make a point to look for wild honey. I might need a little help from Indicator indicator! There may be a few wild hives, but the stores of pollen and nectar in our forests are fairly sparse, and there's not a lot of habitat for them near the floral sources (alfalfa fields). I have found wild honey in Costa Rica, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. In your neck of the woods, watch out for the africanized bees! we're lucky in Montana that they haven't made it this far north yet. makes handling bees much safer. I don't know why I didn't know this, but I had to look up what type of sugar was in honey...it's sucrose, just like table sugar. undoubtedly the wax and pollen in it make it much healthier than it would be otherwise. I'm sure the larvae are good for you too. Usually a substantial portion of the comb will be pollen filled, which is excellent protein. The comb itself is just wax, I don't know, but would suspect it would just pass through the intestines. May need to do some research on the digestion of beeswax. I wonder if some of the fats used to make it can be digested and absorbed.
The photos in the article were cool, I agree. I also loved the bow. that thing looked like his dad's bow, it was so big for him. I was just outside shooting my longbow this evening with my son shooting his little bow right next to me. However, I would not trust him with it right in the midst of the family like that! I guess you learn responsibility at a young age when you live off of nature.
The onions I missed picking in my garden last year are already coming up and going crazy. garlic is coming in. The foraging is about to get real good!
On 4/12/2016 at 10:14 PM, Douglas Wadle said:I was just outside shooting my longbow this evening with my son shooting his little bow right next to me
So cool...
Just dropping this here, this is the Robb Wolf episode I mentioned:
http://robbwolf.com/2015/11/03/episode-294-billy-berger-primitive-survival-and-tools/
Nice share Leonhard. More on the survival skill side of things than foraging, but enjoyable listening to someone with that experience.
Food and "work", in the sense of physical activity with an end-goal in mind, are very closely linked in every animal species - and we are, notoriously, an animal. The relationship is so close that, to cure depression in dogs (yes, dogs get depressed), it's sometimes sufficient to have them play for 15-20 minutes before feeding time. In a sense, they feel they have "earned" their food. Same thing often happens in humans: how many times, after a day of hard work (of any kind) you found yourself enjoying your meals so much more? These examples are of course not really related to gymnastic strenght, but are good examples of how intensely the work<->food relationship can affect the well being of an individual. The body associates effort <-> nutrition so closely, it's really amazing.
On April 11, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Sean Murphey said:How is foraging beneficial to athletic performance?
You probably burn more energy than you collect (unless you are gathering alot of starch and nuts).
How is typing this message beneficial to athletic performance?
I mean why even write that? Ryan bent over backwards to put up this awesome info. Why not just say thank you Ryan?
1 hour ago, Jeff Serven said:How is typing this message beneficial to athletic performance?
I mean why even write that? Ryan bent over backwards to put up this awesome info. Why not just say thank you Ryan?
Touchy aren't we?
OP alluded to food and performance in the first sentence of his first post. I simply gave my outlook on it. I never denigrated the content of his post.I agree it's good information. he clearly knows his stuff. I brought up a legitimate concern related to caloric output vs. intake in relation to foraging. If you're going to bring up evolutionary adaptations related to hunter-gatherer diet/lifestyle (as has been brought up numerous times in this thread), then you MUST take this into account as well.
looking at something from a different angle and offering my opinion is not a personal attack.
It is important to remain focused on the basics of foraging here. Too much romanticized talk regarding a foraging lifestyle clouds the issue.
Learning the skill of identifying a single food item growing next to you, is more beneficial to a beginner, than theorizing about having enough wild foods to supply your training at this stage.
Doug gave a nice realistic view earlier on how to incorporate wild and self obtained foods into your meals.
I'd like to also add a note on volume of wild foods, calories, and planning a harvest for some perspective on the big picture.
Once the basics have been established, foraging and hunting for sustenance becomes akin to one's bulk buying of grocery items. Gathering a wild meal does not occur by waking up in an unfamiliar surrounding, wondering around with sweat and tears expending calories, only to find enough scraps to get by. It means timing of the foods for current, and later use. In fact, the more important gathering food becomes, the more you tend the land, similar to gardening; making the surrounding more advantageous for gathering more nutrients with less physical output.
Example:
Sam Thayer, one of the author's I recommended reading, I think gathers a year's worth of wild rice from his canoe in one weekend (~100lbs).
In one weekend, I have harvested ~100lbs of venison, including preserving the high calorie fat of the animal to be later rendered for its use in cooking.
In a days time, I have caught over 100 fish during the May run for use throughout the year.
Here is a sample of another nutrient dense food that I make in bulk (~ 1 gallon) from the Sturgeon:
(Wild Caviar)
Are you doing the math of what that would cost in the store?
Real quick, without making this too long, here are a couple other food examples regarding bulk:
I have gathered >8 gallons of Autumn Olive Berries in September in one casual, frost filled morning.
>50 gallons of Hickory Nuts in a few days with family.
So meals of rice, meat, caviar, fruits, nuts, and the many other seasonal vegetables mentioned in my first post may comprise a meal. This is possible due to a bulk collection and harvest approach of wild foods. Not to far off from the diligent athlete looking for nutrient dense foods to stock up on for their current meal plans.
By the way Jeff, @Jeff Serven , I have really appreciated the thank you comments. I am also thankful for the first few weeks of your Thrive program I have been working through.
Thank you for sharing that, Ryan.
I never considered that some foraging is done in bulk. In addition to being healthy and fun, this actually changes the perspective on its efficacy, cost and R.O.I. for some items greatly.
Pretty sure though that I don't want to eat 50 gallons of Hickory Nuts!
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Ryan,
Couple of questions:
- What other wild meats do you harvest?
- How to store tubers well? When I buy organic white potatoes at the store, they have a tendency to begin sprouting within a few days if I don't use them right away. Interestingly organic sweet potatoes have not presented the same issue.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
On 4/19/2016 at 9:35 PM, Ryan Bailey said:
It is important to remain focused on the basics of foraging here. Too much romanticized talk regarding a foraging lifestyle clouds the issue.
Learning the skill of identifying a single food item growing next to you, is more beneficial to a beginner, than theorizing about having enough wild foods to supply your training at this stage.
Doug gave a nice realistic view earlier on how to incorporate wild and self obtained foods into your meals.
I'd like to also add a note on volume of wild foods, calories, and planning a harvest for some perspective on the big picture.
Once the basics have been established, foraging and hunting for sustenance becomes akin to one's bulk buying of grocery items. Gathering a wild meal does not occur by waking up in an unfamiliar surrounding, wondering around with sweat and tears expending calories, only to find enough scraps to get by. It means timing of the foods for current, and later use. In fact, the more important gathering food becomes, the more you tend the land, similar to gardening; making the surrounding more advantageous for gathering more nutrients with less physical output.
Example:
Sam Thayer, one of the author's I recommended reading, I think gathers a year's worth of wild rice from his canoe in one weekend (~100lbs).
In one weekend, I have harvested ~100lbs of venison, including preserving the high calorie fat of the animal to be later rendered for its use in cooking.
In a days time, I have caught over 100 fish during the May run for use throughout the year.
Here is a sample of another nutrient dense food that I make in bulk (~ 1 gallon) from the Sturgeon:
(Wild Caviar)
Are you doing the math of what that would cost in the store?
Real quick, without making this too long, here are a couple other food examples regarding bulk:
I have gathered >8 gallons of Autumn Olive Berries in September in one casual, frost filled morning.
>50 gallons of Hickory Nuts in a few days with family.
So meals of rice, meat, caviar, fruits, nuts, and the many other seasonal vegetables mentioned in my first post may comprise a meal. This is possible due to a bulk collection and harvest approach of wild foods. Not to far off from the diligent athlete looking for nutrient dense foods to stock up on for their current meal plans.
By the way Jeff, @Jeff Serven , I have really appreciated the thank you comments. I am also thankful for the first few weeks of your Thrive program I have been working through.
This is inspiring...If only I didn't live in New York City. I don't think sewer rats contain much in the way of healthy fat and protein 
1 hour ago, Coach Sommer said:Ryan,
Couple of questions:
- What other wild meats do you harvest?
- How to store tubers well? When I buy organic white potatoes at the store, they have a tendency to begin sprouting within a few days if I don't use them right away. Interestingly organic sweet potatoes have not presented the same issue.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Potatoes best store in a cool, dry and dark environment.
My father in-law has an amazing root cellar on his farm that his family has been using for two generations to store their fall harvest of potatoes. They eat off that harvest for the next 8 months until the next summer's potatoes start to form.
His cellar is essentially a deep hole in the ground. Its dug under one of their dirt floored farm buildings so that its always dry. Lined with wood framing and topped with Styrofoam insulation. The last potatoes and carrots they bring up in June are just as crisp and tasty as when they went down the October previous.
Not that your about to start digging a hole coach but I was reading the posts about a bit of work resulting in a large supply of food and immediately thought of my In-law's. They hunt elk, moose, and deer in the fall, pick wild berries and mushrooms, fish all summer, and have a huge garden. The produce of their efforts they share with the entire extended family. The efforts of 2 adults (with an amazing amount of knowledge about their environment and skills on how to utilize it and preserve the harvest) provide a bounty for 8 adults and 4 children.
1 hour ago, Coach Sommer said:Ryan,
Couple of questions:
- What other wild meats do you harvest?
- How to store tubers well? When I buy organic white potatoes at the store, they have a tendency to begin sprouting within a few days if I don't use them right away. Interestingly organic sweet potatoes have not presented the same issue.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Meats harvested:
Pheasant, Goose, Fish (Walleye, Salmon, yes they are in Lake Michigan and the rivers, Bluegill, Perch, Whitebass, Sturgeon).
Meats I eat from others around me who shoot better:
Ducks, Turkey, and Grouse.
No Javelina here; I'll let you tell me how that one is when you get one this year Coach .
Tubers: I just saw some good info from Ryan Reynolds post above. I'll add, I gather potatoes and sweet potatoes from my garden in fall and they start sprouting heavier about 4-5 months later. I let them cure for 1-2 months initially with dirt still on in a cooler, out of the sun place. Then I store in root celler with dry wooden boxes, eating them throughout that 4-5 month period.
For the store tubers: the fridge works OK for short term as you know, you may be able to adjust a spot in the fridge to less moisture, but they will still sprout. Or on counter and smaller purchases for a quick eat. The sprouting is awesome because it shows it is a real, live food trying to reproduce. I also defer (if others are interested) to Jeff's informative essay found in the Thrive program for more in depth info on storage ideas and refrigerator planning of specific foods.
Fun Idea:
If you don't already do this, you can:
1) grab a huge bin
2) slice the sprouting potatoes in half,
3) Toss them in the barrel, or bin this time of the year, outside with some soil. Watch the green leaves come up and mound the plants up with more soil, hay also works well. By fall you will have multiplied your bounty of tubers and,
4) what a treat for kids (and us big kids) to harvest the tubers, out of the soil or Hay; super fun!
Plus this way, you get the potatoes in that first 2 month window after harvested, as they are "curing" in a cool place. During this period there is minimal sprouting, and they are good to eat. You would have probably already eatin all of them during that time frame anyway. This is what the farmers do prior to selling them to the market. By the time you get them in the grocery store, it is at the tail end of the potatoes journey and they are ready to sprout when you buy them.
Enjoy!
1 hour ago, Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:If only I didn't live in New York City. I don't think sewer rats contain much in the way of healthy fat and protein
Daniel, even you can do the plant your own potato idea in New York I mentioned, that way you can stop subsisting on hunting those sewer rats.
couple comments on the wonderful discussion above. make sure when you store potatoes that they don't get too green. Solanine is not the greatest thing to eat in too much quantity, though reports of its toxicity are probably exaggerated to some degree. I always do exactly what Ryan said, cut a chunk with a couple eyes, let it leaf out, and plant it. 10 potatoes can turn into 100 in 1 season. You won't have to ever buy potatoes again! I store mine wrapped in newsprint in a basement cellar where it's cool. they last until spring at least, about 6 months. I think if it was cooler they would last longer. for carrots, bury them in a box full of slightly damp sand. they'll last 6 months as well, and remain crisp. keep in the same cool place. for meat I obtain turkey, grouse, elk, deer, rabbit. I love moose but have never shot one. Also fish, of course, mostly trout here in Montana. Bulk gathering is definitely the way to go, it's the only way to make it efficient. Otherwise you'd spend a lot of time getting very little. most plants have a short period where they are good. Huckleberries are the big one for us. eat a lot while ripe, but freeze gallons for use through the winter in my yogurt. greens are always best gathered fresh, but there are so many varieties that there is nearly always some that are readily obtainable. the most tasty ones are springtime ones though. apples and plums in the fall turn into applesauce, but also keep quite well in the root cellar. I love eating seasonally, but it is nice to extend the season when the food is easy to preserve.
@Ryan Bailey Does The Forager's Harvest cover a lot of wild edibles that could be sourced in the Southeast US?
On 11/9/2016 at 6:58 PM, Sean Murphey said:@Ryan Bailey Does The Forager's Harvest cover a lot of wild edibles that could be sourced in the Southeast US?
I looked into it and I am not completely sure. It appears most applicable around the Great Lakes area, midwest, northeast, southern Canada and similar climates, but he mentions it being valuable for any part of North America. If I remember correctly, the second book talks about how most of the plants discussed in the book can be found anywhere in America except for a few. I looked online and there appears to be other books that I have not read specific to the southeast, an area I am unfamiliar with.
Hope this helps some,
Looking forward to hearing about what wild foods you are finding; I would like to see some of them.
Btw- in my area is the closing of most of the wild mushroom season, (which is not covered in those foraging manuals) so maybe I will give a quick update soon...
On 4/11/2016 at 10:31 PM, Ryan Bailey said:Coach,
Incredible article on the Hadza and information from your conversations with Robb. Thanks for sharing and I would like to hear more if you ever have time to share.
A few things on the article:
1) I'm jealous of the hip mobility they have in those pictures. Did you see how they are able to crouch down?
2) I'm also jealous of that man who is probably 8% body fat and eats honey.
3) I was taken back by the photo of the 4 year old boy practicing bow and arrow next to his other young sister.
(So, Doug and Coach, lets see who can be the first to find wild honey this year on their hikes. I have heard about it, but have never seen it myself)
Also, speaking of the other foods they eat, I think it was regarding the Hadza where I read about their nutritional intake of tubers you mentioned. I was reading about how the tubers were somehow contributing to the internal environment for their diverse gut bacteria.
-Sean: I liked your questions and thought you had good points. Regarding this one:
I'll let this gentleman from Coach's article give you the answer in this bad ass photo:
(Pictured with honeycomb... I'd say he's earned his carbs
I would say he is capable of athletic performance as well but maybe not GST specific. Can you imagine if Coach worked with him?
Seriously though, I don't have the answer to your question as I have not met anyone who forages, hunts, or gathers 100% of their food. (Maybe Doug does this)
However, I have dug into the research the last few years, getting pretty deep in the weeds, analyzing the synergy between the physical movement required for each foraging skill (Example canoeing for wild rice, or long periods of deep bending and upper body weight bearing activities for gathering nuts) and how it compares in its effects on the human body when ingesting the constituents of that single food gathered. For example, the marriage of both physical activity and eating and its effects on blood and tissues is, to me at least, very interesting to look into; maybe to detailed to share more about it here.
I think what you are after Sean, is athletic performance and gathering enough food for good performance... I think you may have answered that with the addition of hunting in your last post.
Try it Sean and tell us how it goes!
I can attest to this. While living in Rwanda for four years with the Peace Corps, a lot of the students I taught in the village where I lived could do front handsprings, backflips, aerials, round offs, front splits, full back bridges, and middle splits without a second's notice. They did NOT train for it--was always jealous of them for that. They thought all physical training was just kung-fu. Every one of them was also about 5-8% body fat, but that was a bit due to malnourishment, but also eating few, if any, simple sweets or junk food. (Eating on the go and plastic bags/wrappers are illegal there).
On 11/9/2016 at 5:58 PM, Sean Murphey said:@Ryan Bailey Does The Forager's Harvest cover a lot of wild edibles that could be sourced in the Southeast US?
I'd suggest "stalking the wild asparagus" as a good option for you. It covers a lot of plants found all over the country, but seems to have a bit of a predilection for the southeast, and southcentral states, probably because Euell Gibbons lived in SE Texas for a while. It doesn't have a lot of pictures, but if you pair it with a field guide or even just know some of the more common plants it's a great way to get comfortable with living off the land, and different ways of approaching the obtaining and preparation of foraged food. It's actually a pretty fun read as well, unlike the typical guide book which is purely facts.
I'm terrible with pictures, but I thought I'd share my meal tonight with you all. Shot an antelope last week, and just prepared the tenderloin (psoas in GST parlance 
) tonight after some aging. So tender and flavorful. Anyone who has not eaten antelope (truly, pronghorn, as it's not related to the true antelopes of Africa) is missing out. Better than any other wild game I've ever had, even elk. Paired with a pile of broccoli and wild rice, it hit the spot.
What a rewarding meal Doug! This made me think of a topic I have thought about for a little while now: What percentage of people are able to process their own food and prepare a meal like you did?
Is it common for someone to be capable of skinning, dressing, butchering, and processing their entire animal?
What about even the most basic level of cleaning a whole fish bought at the market?
Or, Do the majority of us rely on the skilled craftsmanship of a few to prepare most of our food?
Are these skills important or relevant today, or, are they skills of the past; only useful for our grandparents since food is so readily available nowadays?
The process of butchering an animal is actually not hard, just time consuming. A small animal may take 1/2 a day, a large elk will take a couple days. Obviously having someone do this for you makes it more convenient, but it also adds to the cost and they may put in chemicals you may not want (mostly just in jerky and sausage). I would guess less than 1% of the population would even know where to start on this type of thing, though they could learn it quite quickly if so inclined. Clearly most of us don't need to do this type of thing nowadays, but as with your canning and foraging, it is good to know how to do these things because it makes you more mindful of what you eat and where it comes from. It's more of a philosophical need than a true "need". Time is limited, so we all must choose where to spend it. I figure without watching TV I save at least 10 hours a week compared w/ the general population. Life provides us more than enough time for things we wish to do. To paraphrase Seneca, life is not so short, but for our wasting of it with unproductive tasks.