Will GST results in 7-8 months be equal to 5x5 style barbell work?

I'm a first year wrestler in my junior year. Next year I will be a senior so that means I have to be the best on my team at a weight class if I want to compete because seniors can not wrestle in jv matches. So how I train in the off season is going to be important. (Just want to make it clear why i'm making a decision based on the short term instead of the long term.)

You guys have me convinced that GST is a better option than Barbell strength training for long term results,but there seems to be an emphasis on longterm,because of how much time it takes to learn the movements,strengthen tendons,and prepare joints with the foundations program.

I know that training with a barbell for 7-8 months (time I have in the off season) will produce a bigger stronger body,but I don't know what I can achieve after following the foundations program strictly for 7-8 months.

In a situation where the 7-8 month time period is being looked at can Foundations 1 results be better than results from barbell training ? 

If I do foundations along with a martial art (hopefully wrestling,but it might be bjj or boxing) 2-3 times a week would my GST progress suffer? (With healthy food intake, 6-7 hours of sleep on week days,cantrast showers and other minute details like intra workout bcaa and fish oil supplementation)

Hi Stevey,

Great to hear that you're interested in GST, especially while still in school! Given your goal of being the top wrestler at your weight class, your first priority should be to practice wrestling. BJJ will help, but it's not wrestling. Boxing is great for MMA, but it's not wrestling. If your junior year was your first year, and you want to be a stud your senior year, then you should go to wrestling camps, work with coaches, watch videos, read books, and wrestle... a lot.

When it comes to your strength training, I would highly recommend getting started with Foundation 1. If you have extra energy outside of your wrestling practices and your GST, then you could always add in a few sets of squats, deadlifts, and presses afterwards if desired. Hope this helps!

Best,

Chris

I can echo Chris's sentiments and your case. As that was my situation going into senior year of high school with soccer. All the hours and time spent in the weight room and on the track only transfer so much to the actual sport. My suggestion would be to dive face first into all things wrestling and then supplement with the stretch series and the mobilities in Foundation 1. Furthermore, the core activation work in Movement series' might actually help you a bit, too. Thereafter, if wrestling no longer is your main focus  after next wrestling season I would say that more of your time could be spent focusing on GST. Good luck in the offseason, again, focus on your sport and being better specifically in your sport, as no amount of strength training will substitute technical ability in a sport (this goes for every single sport).

F1 cannot be compared at all to barbell training 5x5.

F1 is about tendon prep, mobility deficit removal and mostly core endurance. Barbells are strength training with hypotrophy component.

Basically the only reason you do F1 is to be able to do F2,3,4 safely and productively.

@ Chris and Dan.

I definitely realize nothing is going to replace sport specific training. I'll do as much off season wrestling as I can find,but the sport isn't huge in my area so i'm not sure how much stuff there will be to keep my conditioning up,and develop better skills in the sport. I still have to contact the local coaches from other schools and see if I can work with them.

@Jox 

So its not really a matter of which will develop more strength and athleticism,but more so a matter of do I want to be more strong and athletic or have better tendon prep, less  mobility deficits and  better core endurance? Or were you implying that the main use of F1 is to prepare you for other GB courses and therefore f1 alone will not help you much in other athletic pursuits?

I do notice that this sport beats up your tendons pretty bad,produces a lot of injuries,and is pretty hard on the body.

I  can't even strength train effectively right now because I went to hard and heavy on farmers carries so the wrist tendon is damaged,but doesn't get chance to heal,and I can't squat because my training partner repeatedly gets me in this awkard pin called a 'chicken wing' which so even 135 on the bar is slightly painful on the left shoulder.

Tldr; Common sense tells me something that strengthens tendons and prepares joints to be taken out of place and fucked up could be pretty beneficial for a wrestler. It would be a risky experiment,but if if F1 can train the body to better handle violent forces in the shoulder and pretty much everywhere else it might something worth doing to enhance performance.

Hi Big Papa.  Really, one cannot compare 5x5 and GST.  completely different goals and methods.  It's like saying which is better for running marathons, sprint training or long runs.  In this analogy, GST is the long run, and 5x5 is the sprint training.  You may see some quicker gains with barbells and it does allow you to build size and strength faster. However, at the price of poor mobility and bigger size, both of which may be deficits when it comes to competition season for wrestling.  For my money, I'd do a lot of bodyweight work (like GST) and eschew the barbells for the most part.  maybe some work on lower body, but the goal will be to optimize max strength without developing hypertrophy and getting into a higher weight class.  Chris Garay is spot on as well regarding the sport specific demands of wrestling.

MT Nordic said:

You may see some quicker gains with barbells and it does allow you to build size and strength faster. However, at the price of poor mobility and bigger size.

Bigger size mostly comes from calorie surplus. So if size is a concern, then don't eat too much, and don't train like a bodybuilder, rather treat your strength training more like a skill training.

And there is absolutely no reason to become stiff and immobile, mobility drills can be done not matter what training modalities one uses.

Is there any reason why you can't find a happy medium with some wrestling some barbell and some GST?

The off season should be dedicated to improving your deficiencies and healing injuries.

I know very very little about GST, however I have played various competitive sports.  You can always tell the guys that put in the extra work in the offseason.

IMO you should take a look at your last wrestling season and figure out where you were exposed.  Unless you were undefeated, someone found a hole in your game and beat you based off those holes.  Maybe they were stronger, maybe they were faster, maybe they were more mobile, maybe their cardio was better.

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing some barbell work along with some GST.  To be the best athlete you should be looking at a mixture of training options, but if you want to be a good wrestler you need to wrestle!

BigPapa, given the bodyweight capacity of wrestling. You might want to consider the movement series, too, some of which you'll likely already be familiar with. F1, supplemented with other things could certainly be of help. GST is simply a tool in the toolkit. I would say the stretch series could even help, too, given you being beat up (flexibility helps strength to a very large degree). Either of these programs will help you, but to what degree and to say which is best is hard from my vantage point. I would say that mixing it up, being more mobile, more flexible and stronger at your bodyweight (which is key to wrestling) will come about from incorporating any of those three GymnasticBodies' series. Good luck.

TL;DR, F1 will help with tendon prep and initial strength in gymnastic positions, it can greatly increase the functionality of your tendons and joints. Stretch series will greatly help your flexibility and suppleness of your joints, which will be helpful in certain wrestling positions and holds. Movement series takes some basic conditioning elements of gymnastics, which in certain aspects are similar to wrestling and applies it through tumbling. Each of these has vast benefits for your position and situation. 

BigPapaStevey said:

@ Chris and Dan.

 

I definitely realize nothing is going to replace sport specific training. I'll do as much off season wrestling as I can find,but the sport isn't huge in my area so i'm not sure how much stuff there will be to keep my conditioning up,and develop better skills in the sport. I still have to contact the local coaches from other schools and see if I can work with them.

 

 

 

@Jox 

So its not really a matter of which will develop more strength and athleticism,but more so a matter of do I want to be more strong and athletic or have better tendon prep, less  mobility deficits and  better core endurance? Or were you implying that the main use of F1 is to prepare you for other GB courses and therefore f1 alone will not help you much in other athletic pursuits?

 

I do notice that this sport beats up your tendons pretty bad,produces a lot of injuries,and is pretty hard on the body.

I  can't even strength train effectively right now because I went to hard and heavy on farmers carries so the wrist tendon is damaged,but doesn't get chance to heal,and I can't squat because my training partner repeatedly gets me in this awkard pin called a 'chicken wing' which so even 135 on the bar is slightly painful on the left shoulder.

 

Tldr; Common sense tells me something that strengthens tendons and prepares joints to be taken out of place and fucked up could be pretty beneficial for a wrestler. It would be a risky experiment,but if if F1 can train the body to better handle violent forces in the shoulder and pretty much everywhere else it might something worth doing to enhance performance.

I simply stated these things are vastly different for the reasons I outlined. From what you are saying you will probably benefit quite a lot from F1+Stretch, especially from a health perspective. But you must always remember mobility deficits and imbalances will take some time to correct. Doing F1 will hurt your ego trust me. But if you persevere it is the correct path of doing things.

Taking the easier route and neglecting this component in your training will be more short term gains, but you will fail at many feats of advanced strength and plateau earlier. Most people find out the hard way unfortunately, including myself.

You decide what you want to do and how much emphasis you want to place on GST next to wrestling... Time is always against us

Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

 

TL;DR, F1 will help with tendon prep and initial strength in gymnastic positions, it can greatly increase the functionality of your tendons and joints. Stretch series will greatly help your flexibility and suppleness of your joints, which will be helpful in certain wrestling positions and holds. Movement series takes some basic conditioning elements of gymnastics, which in certain aspects are similar to wrestling and applies it through tumbling. Each of these has vast benefits for your position and situation.

I would definitely reccomend working on the Stretch Series to prevent injuries, and to gain freedom of movement. The Integrated Mlbility of the Foundation Courses will also greatly benefit you, and your body. However, I would not expect to get strong very quickly in 7-8 Months of GST. GST is more long term, and if you are looking at training for the rest of your life, then I highly reccomend it. Otherwise though, Weights will get you stronger in the short term, and will help to benefit your Wrestling much quicker than Foundation Work.

What I reccomend is doing the Stretch Series, and hitting the weight room to gain strength, while doing lots of Wrestling in the offseason. A mix of Greco/Freestyle/Folkstyle would be best. After your season is over then, transitioning to GST would be a smart idea to work out any imbalances, and to prepare the body for more advanced GST. It would also make some of the earlier progressions (F1 Work) easier as you will have lots of strength from Barbell Training, thus making the endurance work easier.

Yea, the golden tips have all been said. If you really want to be at your best, just wrestling should be priority #1. Technical wrestling, wrestling while tired. Getting in the reps. I know a lot of guys that will do circuits with 5 guys. You immediately just go for the finish on each guy back to back, with no rest in between. You get better at finishing that way and wrestling is similar to GST in that it strengthens tendons as well.

Priority #2 should be sport specific strength training. So if your coach has specific drills for you to do, then do those. Adding F1-F4 exercises on top of that would be a good supplement. Any time you see an exercise that is weightlifting or not directly sport related, then use Foundation in place of it.

I wish I knew about Foundation courses when I was in Highschool. I did bodyweight training for basketball, but my knowledge base ended at Dips/Pullups, Crunches/Leg Raises. You're lucky : D

Nick Roy said:

I wish I knew about Foundation courses when I was in Highschool. I did bodyweight training for basketball, but my knowledge base ended at Dips/Pullups, Crunches/Leg Raises. You're lucky : D

So true. The younger guys on here like Itamar are gonna be studs by the time they're in their mid-20's. Oh well, it's all relative. Best of luck on the conditioning BigPapa.

Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

So true. The younger guys on here like Itamar are gonna be studs by the time they're in their mid-20's. Oh well, it's all relative. Best of luck on the conditioning BigPapa.

Yes it is relative... the young guys on here like Daniel Taylor-Shaut are going to be studs by the time they are mid-30's. Ha ha.

I hope to be a stud in my late 40's or 50's ;-)

I love it when you call me big Pa-Pa! lol sorry, music lyric quote

do foundation, wrestling puts you in lots of weird angles... movements like twisting bear/tables should be in every wrestlers arsenal and should be effortless as should every mobility movement from the single leg squat series (being able to move smoothly at odd angles is huge in wrestling)

while i love lifting F1 makes much more sense for wrestlers because of how little rest you get  if you can demonstrate mastery of RC PE6 then your grip will kill your opponents 

Thank you to everyone. I placed my order for f1 and the e-check should go through tomorrow. I'm still conflicted because this isn't a proven method to improve athletic performance as quickly as the  barbell(not to much good info on combat sports supplementing with gst work ),and to be honest there's still a desire to improve my aesthetics to feel more confident in myself,but I get the vibe that there won't be a big impact on my looks in the first stages of foundation.

At this point i've read so much that it has become information overload,but  i'm still debating between:

-wrestling,f1 (Maybe adding in some occasional sqauts and deadlifts after getting used to the program )

-wrestling,barbell training,and movement 1 course(would appreciate some comments on what exactly the movement course is. My logic is it seems  a good option to build muscle while getting more mobile and athletic)

-wrestling,a hybrid gst/barbell program(Sounds awesome in theory but there isn't much info on  programming,and since energy would be divided between barbell work and gst the results might not be great. This was suggested and is what I honestly want to do but it seems to idealistic)

Movement 1 is rolling on the ground. Basic stuff. "Armor building" as it's been referred to by Dan John, for lack of a better term or giving away more about the program. Given your sport and interests seemed that movement might help. F1 is a more balanced way of shoring up beginner GST strength and mobility imbalances, but given the individual mastering this course can take no time or a long time (the later foundations focus much more on hypertrophy).

Hi Steven,

I read through all of the comments and you've got a plethora of info here. I don't want to add to your confusion, but I'll add in my thoughts and hopefully it will help.

You've ordered F1, good, it is awesome and will help you with core strength and mobility. Might I also recommend (as a thought) ordering Handstand One to help with shoulder strength/mobility as well as wrist strength and mobility. In addition to the shoulder work in H1, research a couple of rotator cuff exercises to do a few days a week that can be done as part of your warm ups. I also agree that the stretch series is awesome and depending on your financial situation, would be a great additional purchase.

So you're in high school, your ability to recover and build strength is huge right now, but recovery and tendon prep can't be neglected. F1 will help you build endurance and tendon prep along with mobility, that's been said and true. You mentioned 6-7 hours of sleep, shoot for 7-8.

Weights, yes, do them as they will help you build power and that focus should be on explosive power. I don't know what you deadlift, but perhaps a goal should be to deadlift your weight class weight, but clean and explosively. Squats hurt your shoulder, you have a mobility deficit so work on that, and supplement barbell squats with goblet squats using dumb bells or kettlebells. Get some bands (thicker ones) and using them to build faster/stronger shoots by attaching the band to a pole or secure surface, loop the band around your waist and practice repeated shots (you can loop two bands together to increase your distance from the wall). You should work on lunges with and without weight as well. F1 will help your pushup strength which you will need in wrestling. 

As suggested, do technical wrestling work with a training partner when you can and as often as possible. Build your cardio, this is huge, build your cardio with the intention of being able to get through a match, the referee raising your hand in the air, and you walking over to shake the other coaches hand hardly out of breath. You'll build that kind of cardio doing F1 a couple of days per week, doing some power/explosive work in the gym, some sprint work a couple of days per week (preferably up a hill), and some sport specific drills just about daily...all the while making sure you keep mobile...it's all that simple.

I can't speak towards the Movement program as I don't have this, but I don't see how it would hurt you to do it and from what I understand it is recommended to do only 1 time per week. 

On days you lift, do mobility work between sets (this is active recovery), and maybe do H1 on these days, throw in some wrestling work. F1 days, throw in some cardio/sprint work. Get the idea? Give yourself at least one day to recover and that doesn't mean be lazy and do nothing, do some walking, stretching and some mental work such as meditating with visualization. The hardest parts of wrestling is the cardio it takes to overcome a tough match, and losing a tough match.

You have lofty but attainable goals, best of luck, maintain focus, you'll be successful!

Steven,

One more thing, I forgot to touch on your idea of BJJ and MMA. Both would be good for further conditioning, but it is a different skill set as I believe other members mentioned. BJJ would be a nice supplement, especially if you cant find someone to practice wrestling skills. Keep in mind that BJJ will get you on your back and work on defense from there, but as you know, being on your back in wrestling is no good at all...so you would just have to mentally train yourself to separate the BJJ and wrestling style. You'd still get in good take down and mat work, which helps a lot...make sure whatever BJJ school you go to has some sort of joint preparation work as part of their classes, if they don't, it may not be the best for you in the offseason.

Think about how many NCAA champions have gotten into professional MMA within little time. Wrestlers are tough as nails and so are gymnastic athletes, so you're going down a good path. Don't overdo it with the weights, but they will help you get stronger and more powerful. Keep up the GST and follow F1 as programmed, don't skip ahead, you'll regret it. 

I'm going to write a controversial comment, but it's just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. Given the time frame you've given us, I'd go with barbell training. In 7 months of squatting, just as an example, you'll easily get to 315lb for reps, whereas with Foundation you more than likely will not even be working specific single leg squat elements. Yeah, you'll be more mobile and "healthier" (in the context of joint preparation and connective tissue integrity), but there's no way you'll get stronger than with a barbell routine. So it comes down to what your primary goal is.

If it was more of a long term thing, I'd say start with GST and incorporate barbell training later, when your body is going to be ready to benefit from it: I've done just that and I'm seeing great results, both is GST and in powerlifting style training. Getting a solid base with GST is invaluable in my opinion: there's nothing else that will give you the same core strength, shoulder stability, mobility and control/awareness. But at the same time nothing will get you stronger than a barbell, that's why so many athletes use them. They're not stupid, it works.

Bottom line is: short term you'll have to make a choice based on your priorities and personal goals. Long term I don't see why you should choose between GST and barbell work, that's just putting unnecessary limits on yourself. Do both and become awesome!